Pope Francis describes ‘ideological Christians’ as a ‘serious illness’

Humanity has risen! said:

It's more like "Come on people we're going to pray to heal people in the audience right now!" or "Come on and let the Holy Spirit control your body!" and they're obsessed with trying to interpret signals or indications coming from God.

I do know these things are real and are possible to an extent, but when everything you do revolves around it and you interpret everything in such a light and think you are endowed with such power it becomes arrogant and weird.

Click to expand...

Well, cult indoctrination techniques are just that - cult indoctrination techniques.

zahratustra said:

Well, cult indoctrination techniques are just that - cult indoctrination techniques.

Click to expand...

It's not a cult indoctrination technique at all, it's an overbroad interpretation of the Scriptures, but for the most part it is fully based on the Bible.

Content (message) is unimportant. Technique is.

Not true, adhering to a faithful interpretation of the written Word of God is most important of all.

Most of what Pentecoastals do is sermons like any other church, so it has only a very small part of what they do all in all and is unlike anything pertaining to a cult technique.

Humanity has risen! said:

Not true, adhering to a faithful interpretation of the written Word of God is most important of all.

Click to expand...

An action we undertake as fallen souls is the most important thing of all?

That surprises me. I had believed it was the salvific work of Christ that was most essential to Christianity, not the willful actions of men.

HRR, as I said earlier, there are differing types of Pentecostals. You appear to have met only the extreme ones since they are the most vocal and often the most visible. Trust me, that's NOT what the majority are actually like. I actually find myself cringing when I see the 'performances' perpetrated by some of these Pastors. Unfortunately, it appeals to a segment of society and brings them in a LOT of money, which IMO is why they do it!!

Yesterday I had a private meeting with the pastor of the pentecostal church, and it was a very nice, deep conversation. We basically agreed on everything surrounding socially conservative issues, and he most often took words right out of my mouth, such as hedonism and moral relativism. A very sensible, reasonable man. He told me that they had a huge regional meet-up with a guest from the states the evening after and that I should come, that it would be intense. I decided to go ahead.

I guess it would be stereotypical of what we expect of pentecostal assemblies: very exuberant people who have an immense zeal and joy for the Lord, loud singing, hands being lifted up in the air, invitations to hug other people, etc. It was beautiful at times, though that was intense and strange. There were nearly 400 people in the room in worship. I left before the end of the 4 hours-long ceremony as I was just too tired.

At some point in it though something special happened, we were compelled to lay our hands on other people so as to infuse them with the Holy Spirit, and one after another, two men from the staff started to embrace me, lay hands on me and recite prayers for me. I guess they might have noticed that I was feeling a bit awkward, and perhaps sad as I did lately. I know the second man in his prayers said the Lord hadn't forgotten about me and that He had great plans for me and would never give me up. All the while it was happening I literally felt the Holy Spirit oozing all over me and being imbued in pure joy and serenity and adoration toward the Lord, it was so intense that after the first man left I lay my eyes closed while there was loud singing in the center stage for 30 minutes.

So yes, a very nice, warm, compassionate gesture.

In all, I feel Pentecostals are a bit too much for me. I simply need more sobriety and maturity, I do not feel at ease in their environment since they're constantly trying to build themselves up into a state of trance. Still I can only see that their desire to incite people to put their guard down and welcome the Lord is very admirable. So perhaps I can visit once in a while when I begin to feel too arrogant, and need to have a faith that is more child-like, as Pentecostals aspire to.

It led to an awkward conversation when I came back home when I told my wife that two men had profusely embraced me. She asked me if she should start getting worried.

Humanity has risen! said:

very exuberant people who have an immense zeal and joy for the Lord, loud singing, hands being lifted up in the air, invitations to hug other people, etc. It was beautiful at times, though that was intense and strange. There were nearly 400 people in the room in worship. I left before the end of the 4 hours-long ceremony as I was just too tired.

Click to expand...

I did once, a long time ago, go to a born again Christian service, because one of my old school friends had got himself converted, apparently after some painful affair of the heart.

I felt in two minds about it: On the one hand, it seems like a good idea for people to meet up, sing songs and be nice to each other. But, on the other, it seems like a pity that they can only do that on the basis of what is a totally mad premise.

...And also the experience felt somewhat like a cult, with pressure to conform and be converted. The participants are so totally "sure" of the truth of their delusion that they appear brainwashed and completely unable to evaluate any aspect of it rationally. It is as if something alien has taken control of their mental processes. Which is a bit scary... and one can't help thinking that irrational thoughts could in some cases lead to irrational and damaging actions.

I wasn't converted and that was also the last time I saw that friend - birds of a feather fly together - I do hope that eventually he recovered from what ever his problem was.

So now I have started to frequent an evangelical church, part of a bigger congregation that is said to be a bit like pentecostals, except without the focus on supernatural gifts, just on a pure and sober understanding of the scriptures. The service is in an old Baptist church that is also shared with an English-speaking Baptist congregation at a different hour of the day.

The church is small but very cozy, and the pastor is a truly great man, incredibly generous and benevolent, also very articulate and intelligent with a great understanding of scriptures and a knack for vulgarizing. My wife came to the last service and she loved it as well. I came to his bible study earlier this week. I was one of the only two young people but that didn't bother me, the people were great. The wife told me she was kind of relieved that I wouldn't spend evenings with young church girls. She can't help but have a jealous side.

I must say though it is still a stretch to me. It is just incredibly weird to me to see a pastor with his wife and his son, somewhere in my mind it doesn't add up and I hope this man would be a priest instead. It is also strange to see the old testament quoted in the service and cited authoritatively.

Otherwise the service is very very similar to a Catholic service, so I'm not too lost and I appreciate the deeper discussion on the Scriptures. I'll probably be a regular member of the congregation. I'm still nervous that they're going to end up bringing up adult baptism though.

They will, they will!! Once you see the evidence for it, you'll change your mind. The last church I Pastored was about 80% former Catholics!! Welcome to the fold.

Or alternatively, give up on this silly nonsense and join the ranks of us enlightened humanist atheists. You are welcome, too, Corwin

GhanBuriGhan said:

Or alternatively, give up on this silly nonsense and join the ranks of us enlightened humanist atheists. You are welcome, too, Corwin

Click to expand...

For me, religion or not, or regardless of church membership ... the ultimate goal should be to be the best person you can, treating yourself and others with love and respect and fairness and kindness regardless of anything.

The problem I have with organized religions is the 'two hand' policies - you have the one hand to caress and embrace members and possible converts ... and the other hand to beat non-members and those unwilling to convert.

GhanBuriGhan said:

Or alternatively, give up on this silly nonsense and join the ranks of us enlightened humanist atheists. You are welcome, too, Corwin

Click to expand...

I will not join your religion.

txa1265 said:

For me, religion or not, or regardless of church membership … the ultimate goal should be to be the best person you can, treating yourself and others with love and respect and fairness and kindness regardless of anything.

The problem I have with organized religions is the 'two hand' policies - you have the one hand to caress and embrace members and possible converts … and the other hand to beat non-members and those unwilling to convert.

Click to expand...

A pastor has once said "we are nicing people right into Hell". Christianity isn't just about being nice, it's about convincing people to lead righteous, God-fearing lives. It's not just about grace, it's also about the commandments and the sacrifices. Liberal Christians are doing a disservice to people by focusing solely on the parts of the Bible that make them feel fuzzy, while conveniently skipping all the ones that entail to make sacrifices and use discipline.

It's not true that we are to harass anyone who doesn't want to become one, we are to pray for them and win them over by living graceful lives.

Humanity has risen! said:

A pastor has once said "we are nicing people right into Hell". Christianity isn't just about being nice, it's about convincing people to lead righteous, God-fearing lives. It's not just about grace, it's also about the commandments and the sacrifices. Liberal Christians are doing a disservice to people by focusing solely on the parts of the Bible that make them feel fuzzy, while conveniently skipping all the ones that entail to make sacrifices and use discipline.

Click to expand...

Sigh. A nice summary of the danger of religious thinking. It can be a slippery slope, being able to call on the supernatura belief over everything else. As Txa suggested: stick to the living of a graceful live, or just: being the best person you can. We may even agree that every religion's god, and even a godless uinverse, would smile on that.

I'm so sorry, but it is your post and txa1265's posts which show the dangers of atheism, liberal Christianity and pantheism.

It's not about being a nice person even if it is part of how a Christian will behave. It is about redeeming our fallen nature by acknowledging we are hopeless sinners and that only God's Grace can redeem us. It is written in the Bible itself that man has only two duties: fear God, and keep His Commandments. It doesn't matter how nice a person is: if he/she is unwilling to do the above, he/she will not enter Heaven and he/she will suffer eternal torment in Hell.

Being a believer entails being in a difficult position. It is not being loving to tell someone that it is OK to persist in unrepentant sin or to indulge in false doctrines. We are called to remind others with love and grace that if they do not repent, they will perish. It is my business and it is God's business to save sinners from their sin. If it means on occasion I am met with hostility, then I understand it comes with the territory.

As I said to the pastor the other day and which he wholeheartedly agreed to, it is a terrible mistake to try to be independent or to rely on one's emotions or reason, which can and will deceive us. There is only one thing which will never deceive us or forsake us, and it is God.

Like Jesus says: I am the way and the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but by me.

... And THIS is why religious zealots are responsible for so much of the death and destruction and horrors throughout history ... They are 'saving' people by blowing their fucking heads off!

NO!! Some are, but that is NOT the Christian way and NEVER was despite some misguided groups doing just that. If you look at the words of Jesus He talked about turning the other cheek and loving those who 'spitefully use you'. The problem has always been not the religion per say, but what some people have done IN THE NAME OF that religion. The Inquisition of the Catholic church is a good example, in a different way, so are the Crusades. They had political agendas which used religion to further those agendas. Too many people confuse the one with the other.

How can you talk about the dangers of "being nice" and then proceed to whine about the crusades?

Actual study of history teaches us that the crusades were wars waged in self defense after centuries of muslim aggression. Jerusalem itself was Christian for centuries before the saracens invaded. The byzantine emperor begged for help. Contrary to popular knowledge, there was little economic interest in the military expeditions(at least initially), and both kings and commoners piously sold their earthly possessions in order to journey eastward.

Fact is people have a lot of misconceptions about the fourth crusade, the sack of constantinople and its causes. Even the tragedy of those events is not enough to badmouth the crusaders. They were mostly heroes and they died for Christianity. Wether you like it or not, if those men had not shed their blood in the sand you would be muslim by now.

As for the inquisition, I should kindly inform you that Calvinists had it too. Calvin himself ordered the burning of several people, including the non-trinitarian Michael Servetus.

You name yourselves after a protestant inquisitor. Don't you see a little contradiction there?

I have actually read the diaries of people who were involved in the fourth crusade; I have an honours degree in mediaeval history. Calvin did not have an inquisition even remotely comparable to the Catholic church; it was very localised; I have read about it in great detail and I'm not a Calvinist!!