Star Wars: TOR Beta

You see some experimentation with C&C in WoW, but the hard part is making it have any meaningful difference. You can add options or random elements to an instance and it can make it more interesting because it's not always the same. You can also have different factions you choose between with their own sets of quests and rewards. None of this is bad, but in the end you can never have any real effect on the overall story and because of this people tend to choose based on what gives them the best loot or other bonus rather then any story reasons.

The world phasing you see in later WoW expansions is probably the strongest story telling elements, where you can burn down a city and it stays burned down or help build a city and it stays built and you can shop or get quests there (but someone who hasn't built the city still sees it as a vacant lot or whatever). Ultimately you still don't have any effect on the overall story but it helps create the illusion that you do a little more convicingly.

Before going to bed last night, I tried playing it as they want you to play it. As in, letting the story take center stage and forget that I'm playing an MMO. I have a hard time doing that after all those years playing WoW - especially considering how close this game is to WoW in terms of mechanics and gameplay structure.

But, you know what, it actually worked for me - at least for a while.

I think if you're able to look past the blatant MMO quests-by-the-numbers design, and focus on the story behind those dreadful tasks - it might work better.

I don't know if I can keep that up, because I'm an impatient gamer - and for a story to take center stage (rather than gameplay), it has to be VERY VERY good. But I like the setting - and so far, the story has been OK. Nothing more, nothing less.

But I think that's clearly how they intend for the game to work.

fadedc said:

Ultimately you still don't have any effect on the overall story but it helps create the illusion that you do a little more convicingly.

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I'm not even thinking of an overarching storyline here. That must be much harder, because it is basically uninstanced. But what if there are short dungeon storylines with sort of choose-your-own-adventure branches that take you to different bits of story? These different bits of story could be further randomized one way or another, perhaps using some kind of procedurally-generated story?

Haha, I know it seems far-fetched, but this idea of a procedurally-generated story has been with me for some time and I don't think it is entirely impossible. Stories already do consist of bits and parts and finding a way to put them together in interesting ways by means of algorithms doesn't seem too much out there. Besides, stories in MMOs are already pretty much crap, anyway. This would make it less predictable crap.

The only way a procedurally-generated story would work, is if you couldn't detect it was procedurally-generated.

Sometimes it can work today, when a game does it without revealing its design. But I can't think of many where that has happened, and it only works 2-3 times as you come to understand how designers generated the stuff.

Until such a time where it can replace human-made stories, I don't think it's really worth the effort. Not unless it's just an addition to an already meaty story.

That said, the story isn't the problem in SWTOR. It's the quest-design. I don't know what they were thinking, I really don't.

Maybe it changes later in the game.... One can hope.

DArtagnan said:

Maybe it changes later in the game…. One can hope.

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But given how close release is, and how fundamental so many of the issues all of us talk about are, you just wonder how many people will keep shelling out $15 a month to get to that point ... if it exists!

fadedc said:

Certainly most people don't play WoW for the story.

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Which reminds me that I didn't find any story in DDO at all. Hints, yes, but they are as sparse as a needle in a haystack.

Except the beginner's island, which has a relatively good story-arc through the quests. But on the other hand I can't really tell, because until DDO I had absolutely no live experience with MMOs.

txa1265 said:

But given how close release is, and how fundamental so many of the issues all of us talk about are, you just wonder how many people will keep shelling out $15 a month to get to that point … if it exists!

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We have 10 million people playing WoW after 7 years, and I have a hard time imagining a more drone-like design than what we've seen it become over the years.

People are, apparently, mostly fine with being drones - as long as the perception is that there's a reason.

WoW, however, was fresh when it came out. Sure, it was extremely derivative - but they changed up a lot of core mechanics - and it was executed with immense skill and talent. It could have been so much more…. But that's in the past.

I'm finding it hard to guage the success of SWTOR - but my feeling is that it'll be the most successful MMO since WoW. But I don't think it will come close to the level of popularity WoW has had.

I think that time is past, and the genre in itself will have to change fundamentally.

But I find it particularly sad to think about all those years and all those resources poured into SWTOR - simply to make a carbon copy of WoW, sprinkled with a few minor innovations from other games of recent times.

The only thing they have that is their own is the voice-acting and quest presentation. That is significant, true, but I have no idea why they'd be so assured it would be enough to truly qualify for the position they want. I think it's very overconfident of them, and I'm FAR from convinced those two rather separate playstyles (singeplayer/linear story - and MP MMO) mix all that well.

It's almost as if they think the average MMO fan will respond favorably to having to sit through minutes-to-hours of dialogue for each and every single quest. Now, I'm generally a fan of story-oriented quests - and Bioware are good at what they do.

But smack in the middle of a 100% by-the-numbers-MMO?

Not at all sure about that.

If only it looked great, or had some kind of fresh take on gameplay. But it looks average and feels 7 years old in terms of the design.

It will be more than just the average MMO fan.
Star Wars is one of the biggest franchises I know of.
And I guess there might soon be "MMO fans" lamenting about the flood of noobs going into SW:TOR ... Similar to AOL vs. Usenet ...

Yea, Alrik. I'll be there mocking you!

Something like that could have potential, although given that you run most dungeons multiple times, having an impact on the story for a dungeon isn't going to be so exciting when it just resets back to normal every time anyway. But certainly more variation and decision making would be extremely welcome in the average dungeon run/raid.

Something the next WoW expansion is trying is having scenarios instead of dungeons (though dungeons will be there too). Where instead of just going through a dungeon and killing everything your taking part in some kind of story. Unclear how it will work, but that may be more what you are talking about and it could add some of the variation in play that the game desperately needs right now. Though for me it's raiding that needs the biggest change/overhaul rather then dungeons.

Thaurin said:

I'm not even thinking of an overarching storyline here. That must be much harder, because it is basically uninstanced. But what if there are short dungeon storylines with sort of choose-your-own-adventure branches that take you to different bits of story? These different bits of story could be further randomized one way or another, perhaps using some kind of procedurally-generated story?

Haha, I know it seems far-fetched, but this idea of a procedurally-generated story has been with me for some time and I don't think it is entirely impossible. Stories already do consist of bits and parts and finding a way to put them together in interesting ways by means of algorithms doesn't seem too much out there. Besides, stories in MMOs are already pretty much crap, anyway. This would make it less predictable crap.

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It's definitely true, although this isn't the first Star Wars MMO and casual gamers who tried and hated galaxies are probably much less likely to jump on board a new MMO even if it is (from the sound of it) much more casual friendly. But it is still an important point that it's not just WoW in space, it's WoW in Star Wars space. That alone will get it a lot more customers then it would otherwise have.

Alrik Fassbauer said:

It will be more than just the average MMO fan.
Star Wars is one of the biggest franchises I know of.
And I guess there might soon be "MMO fans" lamenting about the flood of noobs going into SW:TOR … Similar to AOL vs. Usenet …

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hishadow said:

Yea, Alrik. I'll be there mocking you!

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I can mock myself as well, thank you.

Sounds like I made the right decision to pass on the beta.

After all, why play an MMO now, when I've never done so before?

Gameplay and roleplay sounds horrible.

Here are my impressions from the beta weekend.

The beta started Friday afternoon and ended this morning. I stopped playing at about 00:30 due to work.

I levelled the following characters during the beta weekend:
- Jedi Consular (Shadow), level 16
- Jedi Knight (Sentinel), level 11
- Sith Inquisitor (Sorcerer), level 12
- Trooper (Vanguard), level 10
- Bounty Hunter (Mercenary), level 10
- Imperial Agent, level 4ish - had to stop because the character kept getting stuck in the ground. Serious bug if this happens to anyone in the released version of the game.
- Jedi Knight, level 3 - had to make another one just to see if the choice when being assigned a Master had anything to say.

As far as impressions go, I'll do a simple pros and cons bit based on the characters above.

Pros
- Levelling: Levelling is both smoother and feels less grindy than WoW. The quests often make more sense, and you feel like you're going somewhere for an actual reason and not just to do a quest. It's no doubt possible to get level 20 in a single day, so 1-50 is probably significantly faster than reaching max level in WoW. I've heard 100-150 hours mentioned by players who have been in the beta for a while, and that number doesn't seem far off.
- Class story: Class stories overall work out quite well. You actually do feel somewhat unique, and the story driven zones tend to be of higher quality than other zones. They almost feel like playing a single player RPG.
- Choices: Probably the first MMO where I've seen choices involved that has something of an impact. I like it. I suppose it could get annoying in flash points when someone is being an ass, but considering they're repeatable you should be able to see the outcome you want after a few tries.
- Gameplay: The gameplay is overall very smooth, and a bit more captivating than that of WoW. Characters just feel a bit more alive and powerful during combat, with lots of nifty skills already at low levels. I suspect PvP balance will be a nightmare though, so let's hope all the re-tweaking we're bound to see in the coming months don't affect PvE too much. In WoW we tend to get shafted whenever PvP is re-balanced.
- Technical state: Very little lag, glitches, disconnects etc. If the release is as smooth as the stress test, it will be a very successful launch. I honestly don't expect that to happen though, as it sounds a bit too good to be true.
- Scope: I feared certain zones would feel small or limited due to walls and what not. That is simply not the case. The various worlds are massive, and quite varied. There seems to be a ton of content here, enough to keep us going for months already.
- Space ship: Owning a space ship is awesome. I love it.
- Companions: They rock. Period. They actually add almost as much to an MMO experience as they do to an RPG. Soloing is simply a lot more fun, and they tend to work out okay even in groups. Too bad they won't be available in every type of end game content.

Cons
- A few serious bugs: The overall technical state of the game is fantastic, but the few bugs I have seen have been very serious, for example the getting-stuck-all-the-time bug I experienced on my agent. It was unplayable. Also, Satele was 10 centimeters tall in most cut-scenes, which looked pretty crazy.
- Respawning quest items: Some quest items respawn too slowly when a zone is filled with people, such as the Horranth egg quest on Tythoon or the stolen crate quest on Coruscant.
- WoW factor: This will kill the game for many - it really is WoW in space, with a few extra features. If you don't like the basic gameplay of WoW, or simply want something new, this is not the game for you. Voice acting, story and companions won't make a difference if you simply don't like how WoW works.
- Lacking information: Did you see general chat? It was constantly spammed with questions, and not only by idiots who were too stupid to figure stuff out. Certain things were unclear, such as how to get an Advanced Class - it works out fairly well if you happen to be level 10 when you hit the first space station, but if you're not the quest won't even be available, so you'll run right past it and start doing Dromund Kaas/Coruscant without talents or an Advanced Class.
- Mirror classes: It does make balance a bit easier, so hopefully it means less tweaking, but it feels a bit silly to have almost identical abilities on classes that seem very different. If you think Bounty Hunter is unique, you should try out Trooper - they have the exact same abilities, but with different names and animations. Same thing with Sith Inquisitor and Jedi Consular. Talent trees might be more varied than abilities though, I honestly haven't checked.
- The "unique" factor: I've already mentioned how well class stories work. Due to the story, you actually feel somewhat unique in an MMO setting, which is pretty much unheard of. There is a drawback though. Unfortunately, the fact that you're not actually unique pops out a bit more in TOR than other MMOs whenever you're not doing story quests - all of a sudden, there's a whole bunch of Jedi Sentinels running around nearby with the exact same setup and companion. In WoW, this factor simply isn't present to the same degree, because you're not as invested in the story or the main character.
- Lack of customization: This is mainly an issue because of the above factor. Normally, it would've been fine, as it's entirely possible to make cool looking characters. However, the lack of customization combined with the emphasis on (not) being unique, means you're likely to notice all the people around you that look surprisingly similar.

All right, I think that's enough for now. I may update later on if I think of something else.

Overall, I'm still very excited about the release, and will no doubt play it quite a lot in the coming months.

fadedc said:

Something like that could have potential, although given that you run most dungeons multiple times, having an impact on the story for a dungeon isn't going to be so exciting when it just resets back to normal every time anyway. But certainly more variation and decision making would be extremely welcome in the average dungeon run/raid.

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So what if there would be multiple progress levels for every dungeon--say, you could be on progress level 2/5; and every time you'd run the dungeon, it's the same dungeon but with a slightly tweaked story. You'd see some real progress, maybe some different mobs/monsters and cut-scenes. Basically recycling most of the instance, but making it more fun and worthwhile to run through it 5 times. I'm just full of good MMO ideas, aren't I? I should apply for a job with Blizzard.

Something the next WoW expansion is trying is having scenarios instead of dungeons (though dungeons will be there too). Where instead of just going through a dungeon and killing everything your taking part in some kind of story. Unclear how it will work, but that may be more what you are talking about and it could add some of the variation in play that the game desperately needs right now.

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Would that be alike what they had in Warhammer Online? I think they were called public quests, where a "scenario" would be in progress and you could join in and help reach the objectives of that scenario. They were actually pretty fun, but I hope Blizzard does something for a change.

Thaurin said:

So what if there would be multiple progress levels for every dungeon—say, you could be on progress level 2/5; and every time you'd run the dungeon, it's the same dungeon but with a slightly tweaked story. You'd see some real progress, maybe some different mobs/monsters and cut-scenes. Basically recycling most of the instance, but making it more fun and worthwhile to run through it 5 times. I'm just full of good MMO ideas, aren't I? I should apply for a job with Blizzard.

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That could work and be fun, you'd just have to figure out how to work it when multiple people in the party are on multiple stages of the instance, or made different decisions.

Thaurin said:

Would that be alike what they had in Warhammer Online? I think they were called public quests, where a "scenario" would be in progress and you could join in and help reach the objectives of that scenario. They were actually pretty fun, but I hope Blizzard does something for a change.

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It's a little unclear what they mean, but I think it's more like a 5 man instance where there is some kind of a story going on that you take part in. Like a battle or a castle siege or something like that. So I don't think they are really public. I remember public quests in Champions online, and they were an interesting idea but I don't think any of the ones I played in were all that exciting. However I could see it being interesting if done well. Given WoW's huge player base though you might tend to have too many people doing it at one time.

Great guns, did somebody cross-post into the Politics forum? Look at all these posts!

When you see dozens of other players going through the same thing - even if the cutscenes/phases are for yourself only - it just doesn't work for me.

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I hate that, too, and went on about it quite a bit in the forums. "Enter this temple. No man that has set foot in there has ever returned. Be wary!" Then you go in and it's so crowded you have to wait in line for some of the quest objectives. Sheesh.

That DOES get better later in the game both because the population this/spreads and because the instancing areas get larger. In the early game the instanced portion of a quest is often just a small area or even just a single room. The later portions of the game seemed to have bigger instanced areas.

The game seems a lot like a KotOR game to me. Except it crashes a lot less. (I've tried twice now to start a new KotOR game and the thing is crashing pretty often.)

I was slightly curious about this since I loved KOTOR and Star Wars, but the only MMO I can stomach is D&D and even then only in small doses. I will not make the mistake of buying an MMO just because it's based on a property I love. I did that with WAR and regretted it.

Thanks guys, I'll pass. This game sounds about as much fun as going to the dentist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_Njryn3O3U&gl=GB

Seems to reflect my own thoughts quite well.

Overally, it just seems like a game where the development (and a shit-ton of resources) that should have been driven by passion - was driven by the design-by-comittee approach.

No vision and a distinct lack of style.

That said, I do think it might be worth playing. It's probably about as good as a game can get when it's all about what money can buy. They did spend a fair amount of money on it, after all.

It sort of reminds me of Dragon Age 2 in that way.