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Default RPGWatch Feature - Ultima 6 Project Hits v1.0!

July 10th, 2010, 01:25
Agreed. I actually hate that in new games, you don't have to worry about stuff like food, or like in NWN2, there is no death, just 'unconsciousness'.

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July 10th, 2010, 01:34
Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
@elikal YOU missed the point!! This is an enhanced REMAKE which is FAITHFUL to the original as much as the DS engine allowed. You have been spoiled by the handholding crap being produced today; go play Oblivion and leave REAL rpg's to real gamers!!
Wow, so the Holy Pope decides what REAL game and REAL gamers are now? Great.

We all are spoilt. We are spoilt by having electricity and not live in the dark. By having warm water and not going to a well. By having a car and not a horse and carriage. It's called progress. You call it spoilt and thats your preferrence. Just don't try to be holier than thou because you still love such hardships of the "good old days". Good story and world design the old RPGs had and complexity don't NEED the hardships.

But I guess I made myself heretic when I dare say the Ultima RPGs were good in THEIR time, but the world moved on. Not every progress is "making people spoilt". It allows me to focus on the fun parts, like story, characters and world. You keep living in a cave if you like, but don't poin't with your fingers on people who like a warm bath and a lightbulb in their homes.

What ULTIMA stood for, was NOT making their games into a museum, into standing for some adored past. Ultima was great because it always pushed the limits of it's time! The RPGs of old were great because they evolved, because it's developers always tried to improve and make things more fun, not by declaring some past status quo as holy bible of how games should stay forever. By adoring that 30 year old status you, it is YOU who you miss the point what was so great about the games of old! They were always making the BEST of their time, always moving ahead, not mummifying some past ideal like a dead pharao.
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July 10th, 2010, 01:37
People just like different things in different games. Corwyn, IIRC, likes tactics. I, myself, don't really care for most combat (and frankly I suck as a tactician), I like the story and the little things (like food, sleeping, death, etc.) that aren't real complex, but make you think things out a bit. To each his/her own.

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July 10th, 2010, 01:59
Hi Elikal,

I'm a member of the team who developped this remake. I read with attention what you wrote, and your 2 messages don't seem very consistant.

What does living in a cavern has to do with the Path of Virtue? Ultima IV to VII are very based on it. So, if you don't like your party members whining when you steal objects, you never understood anything to Ultima, sorry for you. And it also has nothing to do with a museum thing, it's a concept (rather not explain you what it is).

Ultima was also based on exploring a world. You complain about having to travel here and there, but that's exactly what those games wanted you to do. Once again, you never understood, sorry again.

One thing you're right about : those games were always making the best of their time. For sure. But those times and nowaday are very different. I'm pretty sure even an ape could play latest RPGs, those are so easy. Games now have huge graphics and no content. To prove it, just look at the size the cinematics represent on a common game. Impressive, isn't it?

Last thing. I have found a game, exactly what you're looking for : http://progressquest.com/

Thanks again for your contribution,

Alfie,
Lead Worldbuilder on U6Project
( Yes, I am a part of the cause of those mountains and rivers you're also complaining about ).
Last edited by Alfie; July 10th, 2010 at 02:01. Reason: Typos. Fortunatly, I wasn't writter on this project :-)
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July 10th, 2010, 02:21
Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
@elikal YOU missed the point!! This is an enhanced REMAKE which is FAITHFUL to the original as much as the DS engine allowed. You have been spoiled by the handholding crap being produced today; go play Oblivion and leave REAL rpg's to real gamers!!
Originally Posted by Alfie View Post
Hi Elikal,

I'm a member of the team who developped this remake. I read with attention what you wrote, and your 2 messages don't seem very consistant.

What does living in a cavern has to do with the Path of Virtue? Ultima IV to VII are very based on it. So, if you don't like your party members whining when you steal objects, you never understood anything to Ultima, sorry for you. And it also has nothing to do with a museum thing, it's a concept (rather not explain you what it is).

Ultima was also based on exploring a world. You complain about having to travel here and there, but that's exactly what those games wanted you to do. Once again, you never understood, sorry again.

One thing you're right about : those games were always making the best of their time. For sure. But those times and noaday are very different. I'm pretty sure even an ape could play latest RPGs, those are so easy. Games now have huge graphics and no content. To prove it, just look at the size the cinematics represent on a common game. Impressive, isn't it?

Last thing. I have found a game, exactly what you're looking for : http://progressquest.com/

Thanks again for your contribution,

Alfie,
Lead Worldbuilder on U6Project
( Yes, I am a part of the cause of those mountains and rivers you're also complaining about ).

Ok, I can honestly say, my hat's off for your hard work. I mean I love having this feeling of going back to Britannia. With the world building and story you made an awesome job. Really.

But: my taste of "hardships" I can bear changed. I didn't realize it for real until I played the U6 remake. I know Ultima was about virtue. I recall playing Ultima IV, and back then it was fun. I am not talking about stealing, I am talking about it as part of the itemization. Mobs drop almost nothing and the food and potion need, not to speak of the inn room prices make it a chore. I constantly spent most money on food, and by and large that doesn't really feel like some hero. It is the same what I critizise Dragon Age for: I don't like my party members to be my personal jury who always critizise my decisions. I mean, the damn WORLD is at stake! You know if loot and rewards were plenty, ok. But what do I get for freeing the shrine of compassion? A wet handshake. I mean, yes I am the Avatar, but here is the newsflash: Saving the world is NOT CHEAP. It's not that I take stuff for my personal enrichment but the save the frigging world. If it were logical, Lord B would give me A-class stuff and plenty of coin to get what I need, or pay me as the need arises (aka quest reward).

And no ingame logic as "what being the Avatar is about" overrides game fun. When I spent all the time spening ALL my money on FOOD, when I am constantly starving, broke and all the cool items a game has are out of my reach, it is the OUT of game logic to feel good and have a good time which just is primary to stick to some ideal.

I mean, wouldn't it be logcial if people helped me out? With money, with food, with gear? With anything? I mean, I AM the Avatar, I AM helping them against a virtue-damned INVASION! Wouldnt it be logical to say "hey I have some small Yew log spare to make you a flute… here you go"? Wouldn't it be logical to say "hey you are the Avatar fighting against those who try to KILL US, here you get a map of the village"? "Hey I have this spare sword in my desk I don't need, go kill some Gargoyles for me."? Would that be so absurd? And when I then help myself to save their lives, is that NOT what an Avatar does? Or is an Avatar only a 100% stick to some rule dude? Some blind follower of men made laws? I don't see that as Avatar-ish, and if you say so it is YOU who didn't understand what Ultima is about! It is making your OWN compass of what is right, not stick to some social norms others made up!


The DS1 engine has just totally unrealistic barriers. Every small river is uncrossable. Every small height can't be climbed. I don't blame you for the shortcomings of the engine, but you DID decide to place those heights where in the ORIGINAL Ultima there were NO heights but flat earth! So it is not the original idea, it is YOUR idea to place WAY more barriers in the world and thus making travelling WAY more difficult than in any of the original games. THAT NEVER was like that in Ultima! And there were roads. Why dind't you make the same clear roads Ultima VI had? When travelling from, say Cove to Minoc, Ultima VI had a clear road. You never could get lost. In your version, it is all too easy to get lost. So you altered MORE hardships than the original had.

And some other hardships: Why did you not allow us the sell ALL at every vendor? Yes it wasn't like that in U6. But there are a few small things you could have done. With just a handful of little improvements your U6 remake would be played but 100.000s not just the handful that will play it now. I don't understand what drove you to do that. It is totally and entirely beyond me, why anyone would spent TEN YEARS to make THIS: a memorial for 20 people to play it, when just a few small changed would make this a game for thousands!


Oh and I NEVER complained about graphics! So don't put that on me! The look is perfectly enough. But would it be SO difficult to have a ques pointer? Would that be SUCH a betrayel to have something to guide you? Would it have been such an unthinkable thing to add a check box for deactivate food need altogether? Or would it be so wrong to just allow ALL conversations at ALL times of the day? But NOOOO, everytime I come to some city, I am the AVATAR about the save the WORLD FROM AN INVASION and those PEASANTS want to finish their meal and SLOWLY walk all they way back to their house before talking to me! Thats just RIDICULOUS. It serves NO purpose, it doesn't make the world a TAD more believable and it just means my party has to stand around 15 minutes doing NOTHING, waiting for the NPC until he ends his meal and crawls back to his shop. Hey, there is a huge Gargoyle army invading the world, but can you please wait, I give you the rune once I finished my tea and tiptoed home, thank you very much…

If you really think that makes a game more fun, we must come from different realities! If you would have made a quick small mod, I would say, so what… But after working TEN years… you present 1985 gameplay? I really don't believe it. A TINY bit more modern, no real biggies, and it could have been a huge killer game. So you made a memorial for a handful of diehard 199 gaming fans. Sorry, but I am so disappointed after looking forward to some sort of Ultima revivial and this is it. I dunno why you are so adamant about game hardship which died out for a reason, just like dinosaurs did. Ultima was about story, about characters. Not about copying 1980 limitations!
Last edited by elikal; July 10th, 2010 at 02:32.
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July 10th, 2010, 02:43
You know, I'm thrilled that people are so passionate about their gaming. I really want to address this and hopefully end the flame war.

Elikal: It's true. Gaming has come a long way; they're streamlined, easier to play, less "work" and drudgery. These things that you complain about, food, sleep, reagents, difficulty acquiring treasure, long travel times and exploration, etc., all of what you call "hardships," were all done away with in "modern" games because people felt that they got in the way of "fun."

However, there really are a lot of people who really miss the immersive nature of the old-style Ultima games. They don't consider these elements hardships; they relish the detail and enjoy the realism. There are also a lot of new players who find the new games lacking in immersion and really like exploring new areas, role-playing out "virtuous works," etc. Or, if you prefer, you can attempt to slaughter your way through the game and be completely Anti-Avatarlike if you want. It's a completely open world, similar to GTA.

So, while you don't care much for this "old-style" slow-paced gaming, that doesn't mean there isn't a market for it. In fact, we've gotten nearly universally positive feedback on the immersive nature of our remake. To date, just going by the downloads on the U6 main site and Project Britannia, we have over 8,000 people who want to see what we've done. (That's before we got slashdotted and the sites went down.) I'm betting that the vast majority will enjoy it; some won't, and that's fine. This game isn't for them.

To say you don't like it is perfectly fine. To say that it's too big, too boring, there's not enough gold to acquire, sure, that's fine. I have no problem with you saying that, as that's your opinion. To point out some of the perceived weaknesses in the game - also fine. I have no problem with honest criticism. To say no one will play it - well, that remains to be seen. But if the monumental success of U5 Lazarus is any indication, I'm betting that we'll see a lot of players, and they're gonna like what we've done. We spent 10 years working on this for them.

I'd rather not get into a flame war here. Just to wax really pretentious for a moment, U6 was all about people with differences getting along. I think it would be best to just agree to disagree and let this go. I hope that's okay with everyone. As one of the co-producers of the project, I'm not hurt by what Elikal said. I respectfully disagree, as is my right, and that's enough for me.
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July 10th, 2010, 02:50
About food, I have a spoiler (not a huge one of course) : you can find free food in some place you go very often. Why spending money for this?

About the money, ok. Those Britannians are stupid, they ask you to do some insignificant quests to have some items to save their world. You're absolutly right on this. But let's think about human egocentrism. Just imagine you had a way to save all the planet from a terrible disater, do you think people would give you all they 'have' to do so? I'm not so sure. And there are some places in towns you can sleep for free. You can also go camping in some areas, and not that far from towns, just check before there is no monster nearby.

About rewards. Well, we placed loots here and there, some easy to find, some very hard. And all you gain for helping is usually experience. But some of the people there will also reward you with items or more.

I never said you complained about the graphics, I was just explaining that today, most of the game developpers spend all their money in graphics, ignoring plots. To guide you, we have implemented a Journal and a Compendium. Also some NPCs will give you the way to some important places.

On the contrary of Lazarus, NPCs can talk while they are walking from one point to another. But the fact is, NPCs do have schedules. Like before, even if you were to save the world, do you think a shopkeeper would open earlier? You can only see this in movies.

About the game hardship, I already answered : games now are done for people who don't want to think. So yes, we have a different point of view. For me, gaming doesn't mean having my brain empty, but using it to solve problems, have some fun with some stupid answers ( yes, exchanging panpipes against a world IS stupid, I admit ).

To finish, we could have done something like you want, it would have been much more faster and easier. Having NPCs at the same place during the whole game, no day / night cycle, no interactivity with many objects, no receipes… But would it be Ultima? For us, no.
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July 10th, 2010, 03:08
Originally Posted by zephyrjs View Post
You know, I'm thrilled that people are so passionate about their gaming. I really want to address this and hopefully end the flame war.

Elikal: It's true. Gaming has come a long way; they're streamlined, easier to play, less "work" and drudgery. These things that you complain about, food, sleep, reagents, difficulty acquiring treasure, long travel times and exploration, etc., all of what you call "hardships," were all done away with in "modern" games because people felt that they got in the way of "fun."

However, there really are a lot of people who really miss the immersive nature of the old-style Ultima games. They don't consider these elements hardships; they relish the detail and enjoy the realism. There are also a lot of new players who find the new games lacking in immersion and really like exploring new areas, role-playing out "virtuous works," etc. Or, if you prefer, you can attempt to slaughter your way through the game and be completely Anti-Avatarlike if you want. It's a completely open world, similar to GTA.

So, while you don't care much for this "old-style" slow-paced gaming, that doesn't mean there isn't a market for it. In fact, we've gotten nearly universally positive feedback on the immersive nature of our remake. To date, just going by the downloads on the U6 main site and Project Britannia, we have over 8,000 people who want to see what we've done. (That's before we got slashdotted and the sites went down.) I'm betting that the vast majority will enjoy it; some won't, and that's fine. This game isn't for them.

To say you don't like it is perfectly fine. To say that it's too big, too boring, there's not enough gold to acquire, sure, that's fine. I have no problem with you saying that, as that's your opinion. To point out some of the perceived weaknesses in the game - also fine. I have no problem with honest criticism. To say no one will play it - well, that remains to be seen. But if the monumental success of U5 Lazarus is any indication, I'm betting that we'll see a lot of players, and they're gonna like what we've done. We spent 10 years working on this for them.

I'd rather not get into a flame war here. Just to wax really pretentious for a moment, U6 was all about people with differences getting along. I think it would be best to just agree to disagree and let this go. I hope that's okay with everyone. As one of the co-producers of the project, I'm not hurt by what Elikal said. I respectfully disagree, as is my right, and that's enough for me.

I am sorry if I hurt anyone of the makers feelings. I have GREAT respect for the work, really, and if I were not unemployed and live from water and bread (really) I would have paid you.

Yes. Its my taste. I don't claim it to be more.

Still, I think some small (opional) things would have made the success WAY bigger, that is why I am so… stunned. I am just speechless. Ultima is my LOVE. It is my IDOL of gaming! Thats why I wanted it to be accessible for 2010 gamers. That is why I feel so strong about it now.

Just give me a money cheat that doesn't make Gwnno run away at least. =P

Each to his really. I mean I feel strong about how I feel. Today, it seems so often we got die hard old school and mindless console, and sorry I don't buy these extremes. I try to follow a balance. And maybe when you are 40 or older, you just lose a bit of the patience. Back then when I was at school and had endless time and no responsibilites it didnt matter to walk a forest for days. Today I have more days of my life behind me than ahead of me, and it has sort of raised the price of my time, as is the case with everything that is more demanded than present. (Do you have ANY idea how many times I crossed the whole frigging WORLD, because I forgot the quest item wasn't really given to me, but in fact dropped in the floor? I really did a LOT extra walking for this.)

No offense meant. And again, my greatest respect for the work. But sometimes it is the few small things which make or break a thing for me.


@Alife: I could live with the fact shop keepers don't sell outside of their shop. But everything ELSE they could. Like that guy who wants to give me the rune of Sacrifice. He wants me to pipe "Stones". Why can't I play it to him in the inn? Why do I have to wait for THAT for the few hours of shop opening? Its one small example of the small things which drove me up the wall. What do you do then? Stand there until he finishes the meal? Yes, it is lack of patience. But last I checked patience WASNT a virtue of the Avatar.
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July 10th, 2010, 03:59
Originally Posted by elikal View Post
I was constantly broke and spending money on food and potions. Quite disheartning.
I haven't looked at U6 yet, but can't you hunt and fry the meat afterwards or make your own potions?
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July 10th, 2010, 04:02
You can hunt for sure. Or pick up fruits and vegetables in the wild.
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July 10th, 2010, 04:06
Originally Posted by Alfie View Post
You can hunt for sure. Or pick up fruits and vegetables in the wild.
OK, thought as much. I played U5 Lazarus and liked it very much. I never had problem with food there, and I thought it might be similar in the U6 remake.

I guess the only modern feature I missed was a quest log. If you don't write everything down, it makes returning to the game after a week's break (like for a business trip) pretty difficult.
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July 10th, 2010, 04:13
Originally Posted by Turjan View Post
OK, thought as much. I played U5 Lazarus and liked it very much. I never had problem with food there, and I thought it might be similar in the U6 remake.

I guess the only modern feature I missed was a quest log. If you don't write everything down, it makes returning to the game after a week's break (like for a business trip) pretty difficult.
Then you are in luck since we have a Journal + an in-game Compendium. Gives you a ton of information about the world, keeps track of your quests and there is even a section that you can add in your own notes.

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July 10th, 2010, 04:19
Cool! I guess I'm all set then .
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July 10th, 2010, 06:37
@elikal I am MUCH,MUCH, older than you with FAR more of my life behind me than ahead of me, and I have spent a couple of years of that life helping playtest this game over and over. I have walked those forests FAR more than you ever will and I don't regret any of the time I spent helping out. When you've played the opening sections as many times as I, Wyrdweb, Alfie, Zeph, Aletys, and the other team members have, then you can talk about giving away huge chunks of your life to playing a game!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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July 10th, 2010, 16:47
Congrats to the team. I know this has taken months from each of your lives to complete.
Those who like old style gameplay will be in heaven. Those who don't will be somewhat bored. As we always say…that is what makes the gaming world go round and everyone is entitled to their opinons and tastes.
I do think there are a lot of tech hints and game hints mixed into this thread. Maybe a cut and paste and put them into one thread for people who come here looking for help?

Bart and Corwin should just admit that when it gets down to it, I will have the final say.
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July 10th, 2010, 19:40
Originally Posted by Cm View Post
Congrats to the team. I know this has taken months from each of your lives to complete.
Those who like old style gameplay will be in heaven. Those who don't will be somewhat bored. As we always say…that is what makes the gaming world go round and everyone is entitled to their opinons and tastes.
I do think there are a lot of tech hints and game hints mixed into this thread. Maybe a cut and paste and put them into one thread for people who come here looking for help?
I wish it were only months, but it was actually years in the making.

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July 11th, 2010, 06:29
The server has been stabilized and the sites are back up. Sorry for the delay/inconvenience. We won't be able to host the files any more, sadly, but the mirrors are listed. Have fun.

http://www.u6project.com
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July 11th, 2010, 14:42
Originally Posted by blatantninja View Post
Agreed. I actually hate that in new games, you don't have to worry about stuff like food, or like in NWN2, there is no death, just 'unconsciousness'.
I agree.

Worrying about food and clothing is indeed much part of what has become "streamlining" nowadays.

Leaving this out means basically nothing but : "You are not [what's the word ? I try it with this translation] mature enough to be able to be responsible for your and your party's health".

Or, it could be also this way : "Okay, you want a combat-oriented 'I fight, therefore I play a role' slaughterfest without any hassles ? We give it to you. No worries about your and your party's food anymore, no worris about ammunition, no worries about clothing, no worries about non-combat-inflicted health at all …"
Everything has nowadays become streamlined in order to make an RPG effective for just ONE kind of playing - and that is usually the "combat-oriented slaughtefest", to put it cynically.

And because combat-only games with limited to no interaction at all are much, much, much easier to implement - what can be left out = no development costs at all.

Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction. (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
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July 12th, 2010, 15:10
I'm wondering if Elikal and I are playing the same game. The one criticism of his that I agree with is the uneventful walking around. Non-town, non-dungeon areas are dull, but I can live with it.

As far as food goes, a level one spell will give you all the food you will ever need for the cost of a few reagents. You can get this spell within 10 minutes of leaving the Castle.

Money is kinda tight, but I haven't run out of anything yet. Potions seem to be plentiful in the dungeons so I've been using the over casting spells. If you're not in combat, go ahead and cast a heal or cure spell. If you're in combat though, potions are instantaneous heals/cures vs the time it takes to cast a spell.

Wanna steal? Just let everybody get killed and store their bodies in a chest somewhere. Then go on a theft rampage. I'm not sure if the game is tracking your indiscretions outside of your companions, but you could at least give it a try.

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July 12th, 2010, 22:31
I'm about 10 hours into it. So far, I'm loving it. My only frustration is similar to one that I had with U5 Lazarus in that many of the subquests seem written too specific, as in if you don't do things in a specific way, that you may not even realize before hand, then you miss out on content. Even if the content is not required to win the game, that's annoying. I understand, it's more realistic, but then this isn't reality.

To use a U5 example (since don't want to put any spoilers here), if you spoke with the mayor of Yew (which you might do since you have no real reason not to at the beginning) and didn't agree to join the oppresion right away, you not only got tossed in jail, but had no opportunity to infilitrate it (or join it) later. I get it that it's more realistic that way, but it's annoying. Thankfully, for U5, there was a mod that fixed that issue at least!

I've already encountered a couple scenarios like that in U6 and loaded previous saves so I don't miss any content. Maybe I'm just not a hard-core enough RPGer to appreciate that kind of realism.

That said, even with those annoyances, this game is absolutely awesome.

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