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Default Gothic 3 - Translated Interview @ Official Forums

January 16th, 2007, 19:37
Originally Posted by aries100 View Post
To me, somehow anyway, it is Obvious that the Gothic team somehow tried to compete ? (if that's even the correct for it) with Oblivion's way of doing things
in the hope that it would sell (even) more copies in the US (than the gothic series did previously). Thus, they made the Gothic 3 game, similar (sort of) to Oblivion in
many ways; freeform gameplay, vast open-ended-world, the player can do anything he likes at any given time and such things which are also present in Oblivion - to some extent.
I bet both of you (aries100 and Acleacius) would see things differently if you spent some time on reading the annotations of the development contract posted a few days ago. Such decisions are made before the first line of code is written. In 2002 only Bethesda knew anything about Oblivion.

By alienating the hardcore Gothic 3 gamers,
they run the risk that the more casual gamers will not like G3 as well, simply beacuse the casual gamers drawn into G3 will be drawn into G3 because of the first
two games succes, thus expecting G3 to be more like G1+G2 than maybe it really is.
(does this even makes any sense ??)
No, it doesn´t. PB and JoWooD decided to make G3 more accessible to casual gamers. This is a normal business decision. They need to expand their audience to justify the higher budget. They surely didn´t "forget" anything.
RPG fans know Gothic. Casual gamers per definition only have a vague understanding of the franchise.

The old saying: you can't please everyone, so you gotta please yourself
That´s exactly what PB tried. When I interviewed him Mike confirmed that PB were held back by the technology used in the first two games.

I do also think that the many mant things wrong with this game, i.e. bugs & all, do stem from Jowood's pressure to release the game way to early.
If the devs. at PB had been 6-12 months more to make the game, well then…
What makes you think so ?! JoWooD and PB signed a contract. AFAIR the release date was late 2005 (or early 2006 ?). JoWooD already extended the development time for 6, if not 12, months. Don´t forget that time = money! That´s more than they had to do. JoWooD could have cancelled the game and claim ownership on the things developed so far. Whoever wanted to finish the game would have had to buy them out. No, they invested more money instead.
Furthermore PB owns the Gothic franchise. Do you really think JoWooD could push them around without negative effect on their chances to publish G4?


People nowadays tend to buy computergames all the year, not just at Christmas or special seasons in the year).
Probably incorrect.

Originally Posted by Acleacius View Post
Sure I am disappointed by some things, but for the most part I see 90% of the problems due to the rushed state of the game, i.e. jowood's fault.
You keep repeating this over and over. So also to you the question "What makes you think so?"
Most thinks I heard or read indicate that PB was responsible for more or less the whole design and JoWooD & PB together made all business decisions.

Like I say I am certainly not more than an avid fan outsider (since I can’t speak or understand German), so its hard for me to know what PB really intended the final G3 to be like, actually given another 6 months I think it could/would have been one of the best ever made.
Had they been given the time they deserve most of this would be a mute point as I believe they could have worked out most existing problems.
Make it 12 months.
Cleary under the circumstances they did the best they could which was damn good considering the jowood factor.
I guess that´s why they´re restructuring their company.


I think PB took the rejection of the incomplete game as their fault and it's not.
You´re making it too easy. The second PB realized they overreached they should have made the whole game smaller. It is their responsibility. They wanted too much and they failed. That´s the risk they´re taking if they don´t want to belong to the large group of developers who do 70-80% review score contract work.


I think both of you forget about the business side. Of course JoWooD and PB try to make as much money as possible.
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January 16th, 2007, 20:06
Originally Posted by Gorath View Post
I think both of you forget about the business side. Of course JoWooD and PB try to make as much money as possible.
And the way to do that is to ensure that the core fanbase that has been selling the game for them is happy, and that the game is playable and accessible to the general class of PC action & RPG fans they are targeting. They also need the game to meet certain levels of quality, polish and performance, and contain enough unique and distinct features to draw in an audience.

I think that they did a pretty good job with much of that, but the released product has so many quality and performance issues that it makes it a hard sell or recommendation … it becomes 'for the hardcore' - meaning for people will to tolerate these problems …

As for Christmas sales, there is a reason they sold ~1 million copies of Madden NFL in December alone … and I remember that my wife got me Diablo for Christmas in '96 on a whim …

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January 16th, 2007, 23:50
Gorath makes some valid points.

Sometimes a development strives to stretch right to the edge of their capabilities - the potential is great if it comes off, but obviously if they fail… In hindsight, it's pretty easy to see PB should have pulled back the scope (and they should have) but don't we want developers to reach for bigger/less safe goals some times? Then we need to accept it often won't work out. I always maintain that publishers share any blame for flawed products because they are the actual release and distribution authority but the business reality of game making is often a line needs to be drawn - and we know PB had both considerably extended time and many development difficulties (such as engine and technology troubles).

Game making is a complex blend of art, technology and limited resources (read: time, money).

If you have a favourite musician/writer/director, is each of their successive products always better that the last? And they don't really have the same technology issues.

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January 17th, 2007, 00:35
well written dhruin!
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January 17th, 2007, 00:42
A hypothetical:- what would have been the response if G3 had been released after DL and before Ob?

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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January 17th, 2007, 00:51
I have read some posts on the German board for G3 (I do understand some German). The vast majority of the German community does not blame PB for G3's shortcomings, they seem to blame Jowood for pushing an unfinished game out the door - way too soon. (this is of course just a guess, since nothing has been disclosed about this).

Of course, we all want the devs. trying their best, reaching for the stars, but sometimes, even the devs. need to realize that they only are able to reach the
treetops, or even the middle of the trees.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm impressed with what a team of about 20 people can do as well as what they are able to make, when it comes to the Gothic games. (this even goes for the gothic 3 team, if its 40-50 people alltogether). To me, G3 has and will always be the better game, compared to say Oblivion. It has a clearer story,
(although it is well hidden), you're not able to join all possible factions in the game,
so you need to side with one side, or many sides, playing the field a bit, making
the choices, which will benefit you, and your avatar the most. I also like that every choice has a consequence in Gothic 3…

Afaik, and that comes from reading the German interviews on the German forums, the PB team is really really sad about the game they had to ship out to the public in oct/nov of 2006. It as if they knew that the game wasn't finished yet, but somehow they had to ship and release the game, maybe to make ends meet, or maybe because Jowood kind of pressured them into releasing it to the general public.

One of the devs. said that they were 'focusing on finishing the game right now.'

If we look bakc at what happened, I too would have said that PB did make a bigger bread than they could bake (sorry, I don't this provern in English, but it means something like taking on more than you can handle). To me, it would been have lot better if PB just had finished two sections of the game, then including the south area in an expansion. But done is done, and I believe that PB did learn something from the experience of building and making this game. Somthing I hope they are able to use when developing their next game.
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January 17th, 2007, 01:48
Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
A hypothetical:- what would have been the response if G3 had been released after DL and before Ob?
We would have been saying 'G3 was a freakin messy release … but at least it was no DL' - oh wait, that *is* what we're saying

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January 17th, 2007, 04:25
Gorath
"In 2002 only Bethesda knew anything about Oblivion."
Actually that's what I believe and further more until 2005 the public didn't really know anything about oblivion. so the idea that PB is competing is not correct imo, as I stated, but if I wasn't clear and my point of this didn't get across then I hope this is better said.

"What makes you think so ?"
Well from finance reports jowood was having some trouble like other publishers.
I believe PB originally wanted and Planned the scope, concept and design on the engine they intended to use, but due jowood not being able to finance it PB tried to build/rebuild an engine using some third party software like SpeedTree and such.
This was also intended to be helpful to jowood position, yet it meant PB was saddled with much more work than originally planned or anticipated which I believe caused the delays reasonably so.
At this point jowood should have started more back plans as delay was inevitable and also well treated development of G3 would have solved most all of jowood's problems perceived or real.
In this I mean at this point jowood hasn't really let a title become a AAA even though they have had the opportunity with a couple of titles, since jowood has a reputation (afaik) as releasing games in a buggy and unfinished state, this has also held jowood back in the international markets.
Further jowood could have eliminated this reputation with a little smart thinking by involving the fans more.
Gorath you mentioned to me (iirc) this is part of jowood's new plan, well I think it's great, but I also think it's damn late, especially since it seems painfully obvious to me when your working very limited budgets you get free help amap.
I feel like the quote form Die Hard is aspirate to jowood, "welcome to the party, pa!"

"Furthermore PB owns the Gothic franchise"
Thank god.
I could have sworn a month or two ago you said something like "PB can't change publisher, jowood owns the rights to Gothic" maybe I was dreaming and I certainly hope you are currently correct.

" Probably incorrect. "
I tend to agree with aries100 on this one and I hate to use oblivion as an example but it works, also look at what is happening with WoW another great example constantly growing year around.

"Most thinks I heard or read indicate that PB was responsible for more or less the whole design and JoWooD & PB together made all business decisions."
I never heard this until now, so I can only speculate and by your statement PB is just as responsible as jowood, if what you say is true.
Certainly I would like to know more about this.

"I guess that’s why they’re restructuring their company."
I hope your referring to jowood and not PB, I would be more sad if PB had to as well but what ever they think is for the best, it's there baby.

"You´re making it too easy. The second PB realized they overreached they should have made the whole game smaller"
Maybe but are you saying they knew they overreached at a point they could have done something different?
You certainly could be correct, though I am not sure with my limited knowledge.
Also I saw PB using reason and cutting back responsibly as in the example of the ride-able creatures, once info that oblivion was using horses, fans asked PB if this was possible with PB saying yes they were planning something and once they realized they couldn't do it with the time or budget they said so.
I think not being able to use the engine they planned the game around, threw everything into chaos and since at this point at least I believe that was mostly a problem of jowood's they should have been gotten more help.

Gorath, as a hypothetical if you knew jowood and PB needed help with testing in 2004-2006 would you have gone down and offer a couple hours a week?
Are there any German bands (for tax right offs and exposure) that would have put on a charity concert for PB or a new brewing company wanting exposure to lots of people?
Maybe the people at jowood responsible for most of the decisions shouldn't be fired as I have mentioned in the past but they sure should be put on a shorter leash at the very least, someone needs to check there decisions

"I think both of you forget about the business side."
Maybe but I think I have been trying to talk about the business, especially the return verses expenditures which I have even been trying to give examples of options, once again with my limited knowledge.
I would have moved much quicker if had been making the decisions, when your working on budgets you have to be thinking 10 steps ahead and have 20 backup plans and a nice beer never hurts either.

Dhruin
"If you have a favourite musician/writer/director, is each of their successive products always better that the last? And they don't really have the same technology issues."
This is exactly why I could be very happy with the current G3 just debugged and finished and I don't think every next one has to be the greatest.
I see (at least I think) many areas where they had to cut key elements, especially the dialogues with buddies.
Unless I was bugged or did something wrong, I was never able to go to them really for any advice or suggestions especially at the end.
The only one whom offered me unbiased choices with benefits and consequences was Xardas, which I did enjoy very much though wanted more from the others and considering the past very probable PB intended more.

Trust me, most of the names I have been called you can't translate in any language…they're not even real words as much as a succession of violent images.
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January 17th, 2007, 21:56
Originally Posted by Acleacius View Post
Part of the problem is PB doesn't really talk to English world, so while the English reviews only talk about the problems with the games, they know nothing about PB.
As a sidenote, the same in reverse is true for game or software in general publishers not talking to particular countries (in their language), but only in English.

The resuult is that the "software world" assumes that everyone actually know the English language. Those who don't just have bad luck, or must pay more money for support in their own language.

When I'm looking for patches, for example, I see that approx. 70 % are presented in web sites in English only. Those who don't know this language just have bad luck (or in German : "die Arschkarte gezogen").

So, the general reply is this : You should learn English.

Now, Gothic is an perfect example on how about 90 % of all games (because about 90 % are made in English language) are understood here in Germany : Either you know the English language, or you miss 90 % of all that there is to know about a game.

Now, the English-language world misses about 90 % there is to know about Gothic.
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January 17th, 2007, 22:25
I can appreciate what you are saying Alrik, but I think the ultimate loss is to PB. Gothic 3 will not have made serious inroads as they would have liked into English markets and their communication — almost exclusively through German World of Gothic — does little to help that. *shrug*

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January 18th, 2007, 00:52
The bottom line, whether you like it or not, is that English IS the common language of the world. That's mainly, I think, because of the reach, power, and influence of the US on everything, but there's no escaping it!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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January 18th, 2007, 02:18
Alrik Fassbauer right I am not advocating English per say and I do think I understand what your saying.

As a US citizen I loath that our arrgance of not teaching and making a second language manditory, I wish I could speak German, hell I wish I could speak every language.
My point is more as Dhruin and Corwin have mentioned, I mean this as a solution not an attack.

Even if the guys at PB don't feel comfortable speaking English it is up to their fans to help then, as an example I would love to see Gorath, Dhruin and Corwin come up with a few questions (maybe 10) that would help bring PB to light in the English world since together they could build a diveristy of information.
This could help or hell setup something here in the forums to build question then have Gorath or someone else translate it to German and send to PB, not to mention bring some attention to RPGWatch.
Of course if this isn't fesable then WoG should certianly do it.

The reason being, PB deserves the exposure and proabably would like it, for more of the world to enjoy there game, but like it or not type language is part of the problem in this context.
It's much more effective to bring Englsih infomation to all the Englsih sites than trying to get them all to learn German. once again this isn't an advacation.

Besides the fact that type of language is irrelevant to Human Nature, Chomsky has proven this back in the 1980's iirc.

Trust me, most of the names I have been called you can't translate in any language…they're not even real words as much as a succession of violent images.
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January 18th, 2007, 02:27
Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post
I can appreciate what you are saying Alrik, but I think the ultimate loss is to PB. Gothic 3 will not have made serious inroads as they would have liked into English markets and their communication — almost exclusively through German World of Gothic — does little to help that. *shrug*
I was hoping that partnering with Aspyr might help that … but apparently not.

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January 18th, 2007, 04:37
I wouldn't rule out them partenering with Aspyr again, unless Aspyr is holding a grudge which I doubt and considering the circumstances Aspyr did a great job with what they had to work with.
Though since Gorath told us Aspyr did the voice translations, Aspyr should have at the very least chosen someone else to do Milton and imo others as well, since to me part of the charm of Gothic is the NPCs.

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January 18th, 2007, 04:43
True enough - I was thinking more about the communications with the community at large.

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January 18th, 2007, 05:14
yes milten belonged in mayberry.
i'm also dissapointed that they casted gorn pretty much based on race. i realize the actor may be famous but he sounded nothing like the prior actor. i think the original voice may have actually been caucasian. who i know voiced a caucasian character in at least one other game. body types, barring any accent of course, usually have a lot more bearing on how someone sounds than just the colour of their skin.
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January 18th, 2007, 05:22
For what do they need Aspyr? JoWooD bought Dreamcatcher. Now they have direct market access including established connections to all major retailers. They would be stupid to share with a 3rd party which is, I think, smaller than DC in the PC sector.
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January 18th, 2007, 06:01
i dont know about that Gorath asypr came out out with some fairly big budget games in 2006 (true crime ny, gothic 2 gold, gothic 3[actually i bought the import], and dreamfall were all aspyr games i purchased last year). but you're right maybe that doesn't account for much as it could mean they have just expanded their pc market but not yet as well established as dreamcatcher is. but on the subject of dreamcatcher, weren't they the ones who published dungeon lords? i can't recall as i played on ~1 hour of the demo. personally i have been very happy with aspyr and can't think of a north american publisher i like better at the current moment. but you also still could be right in that it might not be right to give them too much or any control/share in the situation.
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January 18th, 2007, 06:18
Gorath
"JoWooD bought Dreamcatcher."
This sounds familar but there is no mention on Dreamcathers site.

Yes curious this is the DL scandle publsiher/people I just clicked on DLCE "buy now" link and is sent me to EBGames where they have a 404 page not found and they apparently are still asking for $40 for DLCE hehe.

More so though Dreamcatcher has a very bad reputation at least here in the US, though I can't speak for EU, but if jowood is able to make themselves and dreamcater better I hope they have success.

I would have to agree with you on this curious Aspyr has a very good style, even in their PR statements they say things like "Sharpen your swords, it's time to take out some pesky goblins." instead of many companies "Omg, this is the greatest graphics evar! and We use over 20 nanobillion particals in each spell effect.", they talk to gamers not at them.

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January 18th, 2007, 08:12
As I have said before, I will NEVER BUY another game from DC!! They make EA look good!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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