|
Your continuous donations keep RPGWatch running!
RPGWatch Forums » General Forums » Politics & Religion » 2008 elections today!

View Poll Results - so who's it going to be?

Hillary Clinton 13 44.83%
Rudy Giuliani 1 3.45%
John mcCain 2 6.90%
Barack Obama 5 17.24%
somebody else 8 27.59%
Voters: 29. You may not vote on this poll

Default 2008 elections today!

February 2nd, 2007, 00:59
Well we have a federal election here later this year too. What will be interesting, is our PM is a close friend of GWB!! Iraq is not popular here either, so it could be a tough campaign similar in some ways to America's!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

Editor@RPGWatch
Corwin is offline

Corwin

Corwin's Avatar
On The Razorblade of Life
RPGWatch Team

#41

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 10,497
Send a message via Skype™ to Corwin

Default 

February 2nd, 2007, 17:15
Not to derail this thread any further—but it is about elections—I would be interested in hearing what the issues are in the upcoming elections elsewhere. Everyone probably knows, with varying degrees of accuracy, all the U.S. blah-blah-blah.
Corwin, anyone associated with Bush is going to be tarred with the same brush, so yes, your elections sound like they could get ugly.

My major concern with this election in the States is that the real, crying need that we have for an intelligent, prudent and effectual leader is going to be swamped in the usual media circus of personality. This is not a good time for beginners—the world situation is complex and delicately balanced—obviously, as a woman, I know that women are fully capable of reasoning, and carrying heavy burdens of responsibility, so a woman prez is not a fear—but the woman they've selected to break the barrier is.
Hillary is a polarizer, as dte said, not a unifier.
But don't let me get off on a rant;rather, a bigger rant, I should say..

Where there's smoke, there's mirrors.
magerette is offline

magerette

magerette's Avatar
Hedgewitch

#42

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,929

Default 

February 2nd, 2007, 18:43
@magerette We have still a King although it's not absolutely sure that there will stay one. (The one to be crowned likes to create some small disturbances, but 'he's a man with a mission!' -> ???)
So this means there are only ministers like in the UK.

There are a few parties in my part of the country with the 3 major ones like "CD&V"25% (Christian and right midfield), "SPA"23% (Socialist and therefor left midfield) and "VLD"20% (Liberals and used to be right midfield, but now still unclear -> not for the working class, but have some more of the leftside view upon things). Then there's one party that will most likely never govern, but is as big as the previously mentioned, namely "Vlaams Belang"24%. (This is what you can call the rightflanck and although they have been an extreme right faction, it isn't totally true today, it's a bit shady, less Hard Lined)
Then you have a few small parties like "Groen!"5% (translated green -> environmental people) and then still some others but they have mostly gotten together with one of the big parties: NVA (CD&V), Spirit (SPA), Vivant (VLD) and Vlott (Vlaams Belang). Lijst Dedecker is a new faction and although titus might vote for him, there's only a small chance that it will get the nescessary 5% to get a seat in the governement.
Now this was about my side of the country, you've got the French speaking side too. There's one big party called PS40% (Partie Socialiste who are responsable imo for most of what is going wrong. They are blocking an effective governement and are known to be corrupt -Charleroi, Agusta, murder on André Cools, …- ) There are 3 other parties who usualy switch in position to come second. The names are CDH18% (Christian faction and comparable to CD&V), MR 18% (Liberal and comparable to VLD) and Ecolo 18% (comparable to Green, but a better result)
There's also a small faction called FN (Front National -> right wing)

Now if I would vote, it would be NVA -> They stand for the next step in federalisation (more independency for Flanders), are against the Royals in their function they have today (want it more ceremonial), want to make the money transfers(€12.000.000.000/year) from North to South more visible and controled.
Still I don't have to vote myself, cause I'm working on that very same day. (I get some paper for this)

so very, very tired (Star Trek XI quote according to the Simpsons)
Bartacus is offline

Bartacus

Bartacus's Avatar
BartWatch

#43

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Belgium - Flanders - Antwerp
Posts: 1,538

Default 

February 2nd, 2007, 18:53
Now magerette, you know as well as I that no politician is going to actually deal with the real problems. Regardless of your politics, it's unavoidable that spending dramatically outpaces income (even before the war expense, so don't even go there, pinkos!). You either raise taxes or cut back the handouts. Find me an elected official that's going to stand in front of the TV camera and lead that charge. They'll talk about it all day long and get lots of "political currency" off the issue, but actual change will never happen. The system discourages it.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
Dallas Cowboys: Afraid to hope / / Detroit Red Wings: Another rollercoaster season?
dteowner is offline

dteowner

dteowner's Avatar
Shoegazer

#44

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Indiana, USA
Posts: 11,326

Default 

February 2nd, 2007, 19:04
Thank you for responding, Bartacus. You're very well informed! It's often said here in the U.S. that we have a two party system—Belgium would appear to be closer to a 200 party system . We like to use the term "diversity" here a lot, but you definitely have us beat on that one, though there seems to be generous overlapping in some cases. Do you feel that this works for or against your country?
That is, is there enough consensus to get a coherent government together, or is it just an endless forum debate where everyone spouts their own rhetoric and regards that of others as mutually exclusive.

At least I've never seen photo clips of the Belgium parliament(?) in fist fights ala Korea.

**curious—hope you don't mind all this hijacking of your thread***

Where there's smoke, there's mirrors.
magerette is offline

magerette

magerette's Avatar
Hedgewitch

#45

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,929

Default 

February 2nd, 2007, 19:14
Originally Posted by magerette View Post
Hillary is a polarizer, as dte said, not a unifier.
We were away last weekend and blew a tire (because the owner of a vacation home we were looking at put sharp rocks to discourage people parking too close to the house … then told us to park in front of the house ), and while I was waiting for the new tire to be mounted and balanced, I was watching Hillary's 'town hall meeting' in Des Moines. I found her interesting to watch - it is amazing how she has changed and softened her persona over the last 15 years …

… but there is an interesting article on MSNBC on Hilary and 'do overs' …

— Mike
txa1265 is online now

txa1265

txa1265's Avatar
SasqWatch

#46

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Corning, NY USA
Posts: 11,435

Default 

February 2nd, 2007, 19:15
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Now magerette, you know as well as I that no politician is going to actually deal with the real problems. Regardless of your politics, it's unavoidable that spending dramatically outpaces income (even before the war expense, so don't even go there, pinkos!). You either raise taxes or cut back the handouts. Find me an elected official that's going to stand in front of the TV camera and lead that charge. They'll talk about it all day long and get lots of "political currency" off the issue, but actual change will never happen. The system discourages it.
It's true, dte—I'm a lost causer from way back
Yes the system perpetuates the system—I think it's a law of physics. But the system sometimes scripts it's own demise by turning into a cumbersome bureaucracy that turns a deaf ear to reality. And when the system ceases to serve it's purpose or vanishes outright, violent revolution, blood running in the streets, and brother against brother will ensue, as so well illustrated in other areas of the world.

So it's obviously time to start singing in detuned harmony

Where there's smoke, there's mirrors.
magerette is offline

magerette

magerette's Avatar
Hedgewitch

#47

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,929

Default 

February 2nd, 2007, 19:30
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
We were away last weekend and blew a tire (because the owner of a vacation home we were looking at put sharp rocks to discourage people parking too close to the house … then told us to park in front of the house ), and while I was waiting for the new tire to be mounted and balanced, I was watching Hillary's 'town hall meeting' in Des Moines. I found her interesting to watch - it is amazing how she has changed and softened her persona over the last 15 years …

… but there is an interesting article on MSNBC on Hilary and 'do overs' …
That's an interesting link, Mike. I would say even the author is a little unsure of how he really views her. There's almost an "It's horrible, but I can't look away" flavor. (Sucks about the sharp rocks, also )
My problem with the Clintons and all politicians is trust. When Bill was in office, he pretty much let the media and the pollsters make his decisions. "What do the people feel I should do?" Frankly, I don't think the consensus of an uninvolved, underinformed and undereducated population(and I include myself)is the best policy maker. Hillary is of course a different ball of wax, but not much different, as your article shows, in being a creature inventing herself (and perhaps disguising herself) through the media.

Where there's smoke, there's mirrors.
magerette is offline

magerette

magerette's Avatar
Hedgewitch

#48

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,929

Default 

February 3rd, 2007, 00:29
Slick Willie was one of the bigger crooks we've had in the Oval Office (IMO, of course), but I'll give the devil his due—the man was the apex of the pinnacle of politicians. No real opinions, personable to a fault, and somehow above the fray at all times. The guy out-teflon'd teflon.

I expect Hillary's attempted transformation has at least some foundation from Bill's advisors.

The sad thing is that the Democratic election platform will have a single plank—Iraq. I don't expect them to put forward any concrete ideas on anything, just constant hammering on Iraq. Unfortunately, that very well might be sufficient to win. (note that Iraq qualifies as one of those issues where doing the smart thing will get you thrown out of office).

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
Dallas Cowboys: Afraid to hope / / Detroit Red Wings: Another rollercoaster season?
dteowner is offline

dteowner

dteowner's Avatar
Shoegazer

#49

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Indiana, USA
Posts: 11,326

Default 

February 3rd, 2007, 00:59
Yep, down here, our opposition party has no clearly defined policies, but will fight the election on 2 issues: Iraq and our revamped industrial laws which support employers over employees through individual contracts rather than union based collective bargaining!! The opposition will pull us out of Iraq and tear up the new laws, returning us to Union power!! Everything else is simply 'trust me'!! Yeah, right!!!! I'll vote for one of the small meaningless parties, or an independant if possible, rather than encourage either of the main contenders!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

Editor@RPGWatch
Corwin is offline

Corwin

Corwin's Avatar
On The Razorblade of Life
RPGWatch Team

#50

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 10,497
Send a message via Skype™ to Corwin

Default 

February 3rd, 2007, 23:03
@magerette-go right ahead, i'm enjoying all the information, and discussions. i'm making a dent in obama's book and am holding my comments 'til then so i can add some useful things to the conversation. unfortunately i'm a slower reader than i am writer(which i'm not all that fast in either).

@Corwin-doesn't voting for a small meaningless party make your vote sound meaningless? i understand not wanting to vote for either of the two major parties as i do this a lot with the smaller votes, like supervisors, controllers, etc. but if you are unhappy with the main 2 party system why not find a party that has at least some meaning to you even if it has less members than say rpgwatch. at least you will know you have something at common, like this site has people that have a love or interest in rpgs though we are all quite different cookies, we are 'united' on some issues and thus are 'champions' of those values.
curious is offline

curious

curious's Avatar
liberty or license

#51

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: California
Posts: 1,386

Default 

February 4th, 2007, 00:55
Because NO party appeals to me!! The whole party system is WRONG in my most humble opinion!! A good politician, should truly represent the people in his electorate, NOT the party he belongs to. Here, the party dictates how he/she votes on any issue. This, to me, is not right. I know all the arguments, but I don't accept them. This system is NOT true democracy!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

Editor@RPGWatch
Corwin is offline

Corwin

Corwin's Avatar
On The Razorblade of Life
RPGWatch Team

#52

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 10,497
Send a message via Skype™ to Corwin

Default 

February 4th, 2007, 01:46
yes i agree, but not voting, or not caring who you vote for, or not trying to participate in having changes made are not only not true democracy either they are simply absentee democracy. Corwin why not start your own? you are respected here and are known for your exclamatory remarks: two talents that would draw people to vote/listen to you.

in a real democracy it is the smallest 'cells' of people and causes that have the largest impact on a society, faith, etc. sometimes its even one person; take away thomas jefferson from u.s. history and this country would most likely be quite a bit different. in nature it can be the same way. there will never be a perfect democracy, and if what you believe in is important enough to you then the unfortunate truth is that it is probably going to take a lot of effort to get it heard. it would be nice if a percentage of the millions of dollars spent on each campaign to get one persons views heard could someone be used to channel more debates that involved 'live' people rather than so many adverts that either attack or 'doll up' canidates. honestly it would be cool and a great signal of national democratic interest if in place of some of the endless sporting championships there were some political championships where tens of thousands of 'fans' gathered to see their views debated and hoping that their 'team' (canidate) could not only give good speechs/comments but rally their hopes that what they believed in was being fought for.

is our society broken because of the poiticians or the people? i'd say both have their parts. acceptance is as they say the first road to change. just as there are fewer and people left who refuse to acknowledge the 'inconveinent truth' of global warming and all our parts in it, only a united effort by a significant majority can hope to make lasting changes.
curious is offline

curious

curious's Avatar
liberty or license

#53

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: California
Posts: 1,386

Default 

February 4th, 2007, 22:30
Originally Posted by magerette View Post
Thank you for responding, Bartacus. You're very well informed! It's often said here in the U.S. that we have a two party system—Belgium would appear to be closer to a 200 party system . We like to use the term "diversity" here a lot, but you definitely have us beat on that one, though there seems to be generous overlapping in some cases. Do you feel that this works for or against your country?
That is, is there enough consensus to get a coherent government together, or is it just an endless forum debate where everyone spouts their own rhetoric and regards that of others as mutually exclusive.

At least I've never seen photo clips of the Belgium parliament(?) in fist fights ala Korea.

**curious—hope you don't mind all this hijacking of your thread***
Have you ever wondered why the president of the IOC is from Belgium?(that's the second one) Why we are again at the UN council while we are a relatively small country? (third time with only 10.000.000 citizens -> you've got cities with a larger population) Why a Belgian Pope was a real possibility?
It's because we are known to be good in compromises. A couple of our politicians can make some bad impression on TV about another country, but they always seem to make things smooth again after some time. (to many examples of this, but the best one is that one of our ministers compared the Dutch prime minister with Harry Potter. When you have a picture of him at the time, you'll see indeed some resemblance. Still the fact remains that you don't say something like that in her position to the press.)

Also don't forget what I said before: we really have only 3 parties participating in governement: Socialists, Christians and Liberals. And so I think many countries have a similar type of party system. (Germany, Netherlands, in fact most European countries seem to have 3 parties instead of the two at the USA)

so very, very tired (Star Trek XI quote according to the Simpsons)
Bartacus is offline

Bartacus

Bartacus's Avatar
BartWatch

#54

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Belgium - Flanders - Antwerp
Posts: 1,538

Default 

February 4th, 2007, 23:17
Bartacus thanks for the insight into your country. I hope you know I meant no disrespect. I didn't mean to imply in any way that having such a diversity of parties was a bad thing!

I have often wished there was something less monolithic and steam-roller-like than the system we have—I don't think having only two parties is a virtue at all—in fact, I sometimes think in effect, we really have one party with two names!

I think the variety of parties you list also shows that the citizens of your country are far more concerned and involved in their government than we are and are willing to put an effort into getting thier voices heard.

I was just trying to picture something very different than what I am used to—intelligent compromise. We must have it happen occasionally, or things would fall completely apart, but it's difficult to see because we have so many factions in each party. They quarrel amongst themselves and don't seem to know who or what they are supposed to be representing, besides their own interests. Each party as a whole appears to support certain things, but within that party you have no support for anything that goes against an individual faction's personal agenda.

So my question was whether having so many intact and different organizations worked better than having two that have to represent everything to everyone, or whether it divided things and made it harder, not implying that your system was flawed. Your examples certainly show that it does indeed work very well.

Please forgive me if I sounded patronizing and excuse my ignorance, which of other countries and current affairs in general, is certainly profound.

AFA your minister likening the Dutch prime minister to Harry Potter—I did a search for his picture and I have to say I definitely see her point—though he is a bit more dignified..and older

Where there's smoke, there's mirrors.
magerette is offline

magerette

magerette's Avatar
Hedgewitch

#55

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,929

Default 

February 5th, 2007, 04:05
Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
This system is NOT true democracy!!
True democracy is an illusion. It rarely works in the interests of the people, but rather in the interests of those who are best able to manipulate the people.

Originally Posted by magerette View Post
—in fact, I sometimes think in effect, we really have one party with two names!
I certainly agree. You can exchange the puppets dancing in the whitehouse, but the string-pullers remain the same.

As for the US elections, if I were an American, I would likely vote for Ralph Nader.
Geist is offline

Geist

Watchdog

#56

Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 176

Default 

February 5th, 2007, 04:44
I'd vote for Denny Crane!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

Editor@RPGWatch
Corwin is offline

Corwin

Corwin's Avatar
On The Razorblade of Life
RPGWatch Team

#57

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 10,497
Send a message via Skype™ to Corwin

Default 

February 5th, 2007, 13:25
@magerette You don't need to appologize for asking a question. I never felt disrespect from it. I just wanted to explain something why our country still works and we don't have a war like the former republic of Yugoslavia. VLD is for example against the workersunions, but they can't get that one trough with a partner in governement like CD&V or SPA. They just have to compromise and work out what they can realise in the duration of their ambt.

so very, very tired (Star Trek XI quote according to the Simpsons)
Bartacus is offline

Bartacus

Bartacus's Avatar
BartWatch

#58

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Belgium - Flanders - Antwerp
Posts: 1,538

Default 

February 5th, 2007, 13:31
Originally Posted by Geist View Post
As for the US elections, if I were an American, I would likely vote for Ralph Nader.
So you like his string-pullers better than the string pullers for the other candidates

— Mike
txa1265 is online now

txa1265

txa1265's Avatar
SasqWatch

#59

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Corning, NY USA
Posts: 11,435

Default 

February 6th, 2007, 09:57
Lets say he comes with fewer strings attached
Geist is offline

Geist

Watchdog

#60

Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 176
RPGWatch Forums » General Forums » Politics & Religion » 2008 elections today!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT +2. The time now is 23:26.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright by RPGWatch