|
Your donations keep RPGWatch running!
RPGWatch Forums » Comments » News Comments » Frayed Knights - Bad Luck and Fools Luck

Default Frayed Knights - Bad Luck and Fools Luck

November 12th, 2010, 21:44
Jay has posted another update for Frayed Knights. This time he's run into a bit of bad luck with the closure of TorquePowered. He's using a heavily modified version of the Torque Game Engine. I'll let Jay explain how that will effect his development of Frayed Knights:
Okay – first order of business: The closure of TorquePowered. Yes, Frayed Knights runs on a highly modified version of the Torque Game Engine. Someone asked on Twitter if that was going to stop Frayed Knights development. Absolutely not. In theory, their closure should have zero effect on the game’s development. First of all, the engine I am using was already sunset and dropped official support while I was already in development many moons ago. If there was a time for me to freak out and change engines, it would have been then.

However, I have been relying upon the still-active community and the enormous wealth of searchable documentation and years of related questions-and-answers on the forums on their website from time to time, and it’s been kind of a safety net for me. If I am forced to operate without a net… well, so be it. It’s a little hairier, but I’m a grown-up programmer with source code and a valid license. I remain dangerous.
He also discusses Drama Stars and how implementing them within the game has provided its own set of challenges:

Okay, for those new to the discussion, here’s what drama stars are about: Whenever you do something interesting (make a decision, fight a monster, etc.), you get one or more drama points. These gradually fill in some stars at the top of the screen. The stars begin by getting filled in with bronze points, then they gradually become silver, and then gold. You can then “spend” these points on an effect that changes the game, even up to restoring the entire party to life (well, non-disabled condition) with almost full health and stamina.
………..
I try to provide interesting choices in Frayed Knights, and allow players to brute-force their way into things if that’s just how they roll. While Frayed Knights does have its share of locked doors constructed out of indestructible plotonium, I try to have at least equal number where I am merely encouraging – not forcing – the user to perform a designer-approved activity to get it open. But I make them very difficult. It’s an old Dungeon Master’s trick. You want all my work I put into having you find the key, and just pick the lock instead. Fine. Get ready to fail a lot and fight some wandering monsters and guards! Hah! That ought to show you!
Okay. The problem with that is that, if it’s left to chance, there’s always a chance the player will succeed on the first or second try, anyway. And if you are in a CRPG, the player may just keep reloading until he gets it right without incident. D’oh!
And then there’s the Fool’s Luck ability. Fool’s Luck gives the player a huge bonus to tasks for a brief time, not quite guaranteeing success, but close enough. It’s the equivalent of reloading the game several times to re-try a task. In practice, it means that those challenging locks I throw into the game to encourage the player to do things my way are easily bypassed with the drama points earned from a mere handful of encounters.
The old Dungeon Master in me balks at this idea. But I try and look at it this way: I’ve now given the player some potential for interesting choices. Locked plotonium doors provide none. Which makes for a better, more satisfying game?
More information.
skavenhorde is offline

skavenhorde

skavenhorde's Avatar
Little BRO Rat

#1

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Taiwan
Posts: 5,408

Default 

November 12th, 2010, 21:44
I was considering torque at one point. Glad I am not using it now.

However for a game so far into development I think it won't have that much effect…. same goes for AoD…. I am a bit worried about dead-state though.


But the main problem is, I don't think it'll be a brilliant idea to start building a sequal with the same engine…. well at least not if it isn't bought by a company who intend to keep updating it… things move to fast in the gaming industry for that.
GothicGothicness is offline

GothicGothicness

GothicGothicness's Avatar
SasqWatch

#2

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,408

Default 

November 12th, 2010, 22:05
I think the documentation you used will end up somewhere else just like with everything else on the internet that closes. Someone probably has all of that documentation stored on their hd and will upload it somewhere and you just need to keep an eye on that. As for the forums people will just move to a fansite for the Torque engine.
guenthar is offline

guenthar

SasqWatch

#3

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,578
Send a message via Skype™ to guenthar

Default 

November 13th, 2010, 00:44
I hope so. And yeah - the AoD guys are in the same boat. We're all too slow…

I'm hoping they'll just get a buyer soon, who maintains the status quo as much as possible. But with better docs. Anyway - I don't intend to use the engine again after the Frayed Knights series is complete, but I figure that will still take a while.

There was at least one suggestion from testers with drama star implementation that I'm considering to make things "more fair" for gamers like me. It's not in yet - I want to get info from testers first as to the rate of drama point acquisition, balance of the abilities, etc.
RampantCoyote is offline

RampantCoyote

RampantCoyote's Avatar
SasqWatch

#4

Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 588

Default 

November 14th, 2010, 21:25
Regarding Fools Luck, etc., I respect your choices here. I really like when I have the opportunity to do what I want and not just what the developer wants me to do. But that's more about having the choice than actually fighting the developer. I'm an old P&P RPGer too, and I've been a DM who had to… "guide" players back to where I want them.

But my concern is that I'll come to that metaphorical door and not realize that I'm not supposed to bang my head against it until it opens. As long as I know ahead of time there are other, preferred ways to open it, I'll likely take them since I want to experience everything the developer intended. I assume you are already taking that into account, but I thought I'd speak up anyways.
Guhndahb is offline

Guhndahb

Guhndahb's Avatar
Sentinel

#5

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 319

Default 

November 14th, 2010, 23:29
That's actually a really good issue for Beta test. I'm sure there are many of those issues just as you describe - there's just not enough info for the player to go on to realize there's an alternate path besides "brute force" much of the time. It won't always be spelled out in black-and-white, but there should be enough hints and - really established patterns - for the player to go from.

I'm fairly sure I do NOT have all of that in right now. I'm not even sure the story makes all that much sense. Makes perfect sense to me, of course, as the designer, but then I know much more than what the player might encounter. I'm not sure all the relevant details are being provided.

Man, I remember way back when I was just starting my career, and I thought game design seemed so easy….
RampantCoyote is offline

RampantCoyote

RampantCoyote's Avatar
SasqWatch

#6

Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 588

Default 

November 15th, 2010, 06:34
I think it's important to make clear that the 'brute force' approach should be the 'last' approach. For example, if by breaking down the door instead of using the key you bring wandering monsters, this shouldn't actually make it the preferred way (say, players could break down the door to bring extra mobs for extra exp and money, which would be counterintuitive). In this case, I'd make it so these extra mobs provide no benefits (i.e. no exp/money) and just make the player use valuable resources.
wolfing is offline

wolfing

wolfing's Avatar
Wonders what SasqWatch is

#7

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Tardis
Posts: 3,378

Default 

November 15th, 2010, 13:57
Originally Posted by wolfing View Post
I think it's important to make clear that the 'brute force' approach should be the 'last' approach.
In Frayed Knights, maybe.

If this was an hack & slay action-RPG, the "brute force" method would be the FIRST choice, I guess.

So, I think it's up to the designer (and here comes a tiny bit of role-playing theory) which style of play should be supported and which one should be "punished" or so.

“ Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in the opposite direction.“ (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
Alrik Fassbauer is offline

Alrik Fassbauer

Alrik Fassbauer's Avatar
TL;DR

#8

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Old Europe
Posts: 16,057

Default 

November 15th, 2010, 23:05
So, I think it's up to the designer (and here comes a tiny bit of role-playing theory) which style of play should be supported and which one should be "punished" or so.
Or at least to help make sure the player is aware of all options, and that those options are viable.
RampantCoyote is offline

RampantCoyote

RampantCoyote's Avatar
SasqWatch

#9

Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 588

Default 

November 16th, 2010, 04:39
Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer View Post
In Frayed Knights, maybe.

If this was an hack & slay action-RPG, the "brute force" method would be the FIRST choice, I guess.

So, I think it's up to the designer (and here comes a tiny bit of role-playing theory) which style of play should be supported and which one should be "punished" or so.
What I mean is, let's say there is a door with a keyhole. You can find the key (optimal approach, lets you surprise the enemies inside: a plus). You can pick the lock (ok approach, enemies inside will hear the noise and be ready for you). Or you can hack the door with an axe (worst approach, not only enemies inside will be ready, but you'll call enemies from outside, making the fight more difficult).
wolfing is offline

wolfing

wolfing's Avatar
Wonders what SasqWatch is

#10

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Tardis
Posts: 3,378

Default 

November 16th, 2010, 23:41
I see. You just can't look into the brains of gamers - so you can't predict them.

“ Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in the opposite direction.“ (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
Alrik Fassbauer is offline

Alrik Fassbauer

Alrik Fassbauer's Avatar
TL;DR

#11

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Old Europe
Posts: 16,057

Default 

November 17th, 2010, 05:03
Originally Posted by RampantCoyote View Post
It won't always be spelled out in black-and-white, but there should be enough hints and - really established patterns - for the player to go from.
That sounds very good, and, indeed, I just meant hints and patterns. There's no need to spell it out. I like it very much when I'm rewarded for paying attention to details. That was something so common in older RPGs and something so infrequently found these days.
Guhndahb is offline

Guhndahb

Guhndahb's Avatar
Sentinel

#12

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 319
RPGWatch Forums » Comments » News Comments » Frayed Knights - Bad Luck and Fools Luck
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:46.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright by RPGWatch