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Default JA2 Reloaded - No TB Combat!

November 6th, 2010, 23:04
Uh oh. bitComposer's "faithful" remake of Jagged Alliance 2 has taken a big step into the mainstream and away from faithful after deciding to ditch the original turn-based combat for a realtime-with-pause system. Here's the full post on their forums:
Dear Community,
Many thanks for your many proposals and suggestions. This has obviously sparked off heated discussions that have provoked a wide range of opinions about how we could change the combat system, if we should change it and, if so, what changes would be best suited to the game.
To ensure that Jagged Alliance 2 makes a successful transition into 2011 and that the remake is as attractive as possible to players who know the Jagged Alliance series and to those who have yet to play it, we will simply make a few changes to the existing JA2 combat system. We are calling the new combat system the “Plan & Go” system. It is based more on real time, and represents a departure from the original combat system in Jagged Alliance 2. We would like to outline the significant changes below, and hope that you, the official JA2 community, will be as excited as we are about them.
Basically, the overall strategy in the combat system remains the same! The player has to identify strategically advantageous positions on the map to minimize losses to his own side as far as possible.
In the “Plan & Go” system we have omitted the “Fog of War”, which covered most of the map in JA2. Enemies positioned outside buildings are permanently visible, which enables the player to establish a strategy from the outset without having to constantly save and load. In addition, the world looks much more animated and lively as the hostile forces patrol in the meticulously detailed 3D backdrops.
The “Plan & Go” system removes the turn-based structure. If the player wants to react to an incident, he can pause the game at any time or allow the game to pause automatically by carrying out a particular activity (e.g. if a mercenary has run out of ammunition).
The real-time elements in the “Plan & Go” system also add new and exciting features such as “Timing” for example. As the enemies are patrolling all over the map, the player must time his movements very precisely to defend himself against his enemies. Here, the need to quicksave/quick load is greatly reduced, as the risks and challenges are more easily identified and the effect of the risk is reduced to a much shorter time (e.g. a character is sighted before he has reached his target, so the shooting starts earlier than anticipated).
The “Plan & Go” system also enables players to specify the conditions under which his units can attack independently; they can therefore open fire when enemies enter their range of vision. This offers players the same tactical depth in terms of decision-making, and also intensifies the combat experience, because more experienced players have to pause much less frequently and, for the most part, can let the game progress in real time. In particular, this speeds up battles with large numbers of fighters and which seemed like they would never end in the original game!
The advantages of the “Plan & Go” system opposed to the turn-based original are:
• It is dynamic, as it allows combat in real time.
• It introduces timing as a new element: it enables the player to spot and assess enemy movements, so he can either cleverly sneak past, or lie in wait and choose the right moment to attack.
• It avoids the situation where you get mixed up in a battle while your mercenaries are some distance from the front. JA2 was very time-consuming in this respect, because players had to lag behind for several turns while they moved all their mercenaries to the front.
• Combat with large numbers of enemies happen more quickly; in JA2 it took ages for the round to finish when numerous mercenaries and enemies were involved in the battle.
• The new system also allows us to incorporate new AI functions such as cutting off and flanking enemies, that only work when actions are carried out simultaneously and not one after the other.
Your bitComposer Team
Spotted at GamersGlobal.
More information.

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November 6th, 2010, 23:05
Gah. I'll replay 1.13 again when this abomination comes out I guess…

Originally Posted by magerette
I'm so tired of marketing hype, marketing slang, marketing priorities and general marketing BS that it tends to have the opposite effect on me. (Jaded is the word I'm looking for here.) I can't even read through a whole press release from any AAA title company without wanting to turn off my computer and learn to cross-stitch.
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November 6th, 2010, 23:08
Haben die 'ne Vollmeise ???

JA2 Reloaded = F.L.O.P.

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Last edited by HiddenX; November 6th, 2010 at 23:30.
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November 6th, 2010, 23:53
First Arcania, now JA2 Reloaded.
Driving great names into the ground/into the dirt.

“ Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in the opposite direction.“ (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
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November 7th, 2010, 00:02
Ouch. I have no doubt that the developers had good intentions when they decided to develop this remake, but this is just horrible news. How is this in any way a "remake"? You're turning the game from a Tactical Turn-based game to a Tactical Real-time game. They're basically changing the genres. I don't see how this qualifies as a "remake".

Bah, sad news indeed.
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November 7th, 2010, 00:03
Oh, I am sure that the JA community will be totally thrilled with the news. Because, like JA was a great game except for the sucky TB combat. *looks at thread* Yeah, thought so.
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November 7th, 2010, 00:04
They're trying to catch new customers with it.
Probably due to the bad image turn-based combat has - "uh, so boring" and such stuff.

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November 7th, 2010, 00:17
Kind of shooting themselves in the foot with this move.
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November 7th, 2010, 00:29
I'll just ignore the "Jagged Alliance" part of the name and probably try it. It might even be good.
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November 7th, 2010, 00:37
- not being sarcastic.
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November 7th, 2010, 01:00
Fine by me.

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November 7th, 2010, 01:15
Whaaah!

Lets see how it actually plays before bashing it to death.
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November 7th, 2010, 01:29
More concerning for me is the fact that they are removing the fog of war and all outside enemies are visible (Even the ones you can't see?!?!?)

Favourite RPGs of all time: Wizardry 6, Ultima 7/7.2, Fallout2, Planescape Torment, Baldurs Gate 2+TOB, Jagged Alliance 2, Ravenloft: The stone prophet, Gothic 2, Realms of Arkania:Blade of destiny (not the HD version!!) and Secret of the Silver Blades.
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November 7th, 2010, 02:43
I agree with bjon045, this plan & go thing sounds bad but at least it removes the horrible hunt for last soldier on the map problem I've encountered too frequently with JA2.

I really didn't have high hopes for turn-based combat in this day and age. I somewhat enjoyed Fallout Tactics (for the combat) and would rather see the simultaneous turn feature it had than true real time. It could end up being ok. It could end up being crap. Only time will tell I suppose.
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November 7th, 2010, 04:37
Have to say that i am hardly surprised. I am sure whoever is funding them would put a full stop on TB even if they really wanted to implement. What's sad is that it is basically another nail in the coffin of TB. It has clearly been accepted that TB is completely non-viable for AAA or games targeted at larger market.

So TB will seemingly eternally be relegated to indies and niche hardcore strategy games. However, I really think many gamers, including new and younger games, could really get into TB if there were good games being produced. If God of War is all your exposed to, that's all you will like.
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November 7th, 2010, 06:52
These are my thoughts as I read this post:

hope that you, the official JA2 community, will be as excited as we are about them.
You're scaring me.

Basically, the overall strategy in the combat system remains the same!
Whew….Good, then it will have a turn-based system that is second to none out there.

The player has to identify strategically advantageous positions on the map to minimize losses to his own side as far as possible.
No kidding Sherlock! It's called a strategy game.

In the “Plan & Go” system we have omitted the “Fog of War”, which covered most of the map in JA2.
Wai?What??? So no fog of war? I can see everyone? If I wanted to play chess I would just play chess. Still not so bad, I guess. Even though that was a lot of the fun with JA2.

Enemies positioned outside buildings are permanently visible, which enables the player to establish a strategy from the outset without having to constantly save and load.
So you're making chess. I think they have already invented that game.

In addition, the world looks much more animated and lively as the hostile forces patrol in the meticulously detailed 3D backdrops.
Who cares? Get back to the gameplay.

The “Plan & Go” system removes the turn-based structure.
What????? WHAT??????

I had hoped that DHruin made a mistake, but he didn't and after reading that I only have one thing to say:



JA3 or JA2 Reloaded or whatever the hell they want to call it, went from a title I heard rumors about and would have loved to play one day to this:




R.I.P. Jagged Alliance series.

Despite all my rage.
I'm still just a rat in a cage.
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November 7th, 2010, 07:31
Originally Posted by skavenhorde View Post
JA3 or JA2 Reloaded or whatever the hell they want to call it…
Actually the really depressing thing is, that bitComposer are not only making this "remake" of JA2 but they are apparently also developing JA Online and JA3. I could understand if they fuck try something new with the latter two but with the remake? Nice way to dig their own grave…

Originally Posted by magerette
I'm so tired of marketing hype, marketing slang, marketing priorities and general marketing BS that it tends to have the opposite effect on me. (Jaded is the word I'm looking for here.) I can't even read through a whole press release from any AAA title company without wanting to turn off my computer and learn to cross-stitch.
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November 7th, 2010, 08:15
I will enjoy their unavoidable failure.
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November 7th, 2010, 09:32
Too bad, lost another paying costumer.
Iam getting to old to cry over such painful events, so i just ignore from now on this title.

**In the “Plan & Go” system we have omitted the “Fog of War”**
Is a NO go !

edit : after reading there forum
There forum is storming all over.
Last edited by ikbenrichard; November 7th, 2010 at 09:57.
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November 7th, 2010, 09:57
Well, I really do not mind. This is basically Baldur's Gate I. Getting rid of TB was good 12 years ago and this is no different. The last TB game I played was Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor, and I used a hack that could speed up time because it was so dreadfully slow. There's a woman playing the game on youtube. She's up at video 296 now, 10-15 minutes each, and she isn't near the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFG9wzkb__0

I also remember the ages Fallout battles could take when a fight broke out into a town and it could take 5 minutes until you could control your characters again because every frigid civilian had to move one by one.

One of the worst parts with TB is already mentioned, when TB is enabled too early and you have to use the first rounds to simply get your guys in position.
But then you have the people you just do not need, you want them to guard somewhere until needed, but every round you have to click past them, while there are a lot of foes who are just standing somewhere, waiting. You could and should really move them closer to the battle, but you know that would just drain time and would probably not help anyway since the last foe is likely dead before they pop up, then things go bad and you have to do it anyway.

TB was developed for PnP because you can't handle things going on at the same time. It's completely unnecessary for computers. Pause-to-Command is fine. Really. I was close to register to their forum and suggest it myself.

Mankind must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind. - John F Kennedy
An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind. - Mahatma Gandhi
The world is my country. To do good is my religion. My mind is my own church. This simple creed is all we need to enjoy peace on earth. - Thomas Paine
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Okay, now roll sanity.

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