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RPGWatch Forums » Comments » News Comments » No Mutants Allowed - A History of Fallout Fandom Part 2

Default No Mutants Allowed - A History of Fallout Fandom Part 2

February 6th, 2007, 16:22
Originally Posted by Moriendor View Post
And before you do it, Mr. Lawyer, Kharn, Sir, no, I can not prove that it is indeed the same people. I lose.
I'm…unsure what you're talking about. Remember that I'm not a big Codex reader, but as far as I know there are only a few people who post irregularly on both sites, Bradylama maybe the only one to post regularly on both. Our staff posts there, their staff posts on our site, for communication's sake.

I may be wrong, though. Who're the guys on both forums? Name names, they'll go right in my commie book.

Aaahhh the insults… finally… could you please call me some animal names, Biofreak? I'm into that. Puuhhleeeaaase?
Fer Pete's sake, Moriendor, you attacked us because you dislike a community that is not tied, officially or unofficially, to us. Could you just face that doing so is a bit silly and drop the subject?

Picture it: every scrap of information on the game showing up on game sites with your spin, linking to your front page, for three years. You haven't imploded from lack of information, but you've done a hell of a lot less harm than you could have.
Yeah, we realise that's much a possibility, that the fact that they've been so silent is because they only have information that we'd dislike to reveal.

It's possible, many people suspect it. I hope it's not true, but I can't deny it's possible
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February 6th, 2007, 22:35
Originally Posted by Bradylama View Post
A "Malthusian apocalypse" is very apt in this case, because it keeps us silent until it's too late for there to be a general buzz.
Are you suggesting that Bethsoft will be unable to market its game without your assistance? Or that it'll delay its marketing campaign for too long out of fear of the wrath of NMA and DaC? Or… no, I'm sorry. What does this sentence mean?

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February 6th, 2007, 23:01
Originally Posted by abbaon View Post
Are you suggesting that Bethsoft will be unable to market its game without your assistance? Or that it'll delay its marketing campaign for too long out of fear of the wrath of NMA and DaC? Or… no, I'm sorry. What does this sentence mean?
What I'm saying is that Bethesda refuses to release any information on the game because of the negative word-of-mouth we would generate, waiting instead to bait the media and work them into a frenzy until they can perform a last-minute marketing blitz.

There are rumours that the game will be released fourth quarter this year or Q1 2008. It's not at all unrealistic that they'd be releasing such a small amount of information until then in order to avoid extensive scrutiny.

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February 7th, 2007, 00:16
It's not impossible, but it's not the way I'd bet. I expect that the usual explanation for developer silence is the correct one in this case, and that they'll do a full year of promotion for a 2008 release, just as they announced Oblivion in October 2005 with an eye on the X360 launch window. We'll see, I guess. But if they'd needed another reason not to talk to you in advance, "you'd go apeshit" is a pretty good one.

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February 7th, 2007, 00:16
I don't really want to get tied up in this discussion but your spin on Bethsoft's marketing strategy has no basis in evidence. The rumours are just that — and look at the marketing timeline for Oblivion - were they afraid of you for that title? Pete Hines simply likes hold the the info until <12 months before release and then run a very structured, high-level blitz. I don't especially like it but it has nothing to do with NMA.

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February 7th, 2007, 00:20
Originally Posted by Bradylama View Post
What I'm saying is that Bethesda refuses to release any information on the game because of the negative word-of-mouth we would generate
That nails it. You are insane. How can you guys seriously be so full of yourselves and so out of touch with reality? You know, I actually just did a bit of reading on NMA since I was attacked for mostly linking to the Codex in regards to providing proof of offensive Bethesda posts.

BTW, interesting stuff on NMA… like Pete Hines being called "goat fucker", the company being called "asshole Bethesda", Pete Hines being accused of "verbally buttfucking" the "respect" (yeah, right) that the community has supposedly begun to develop, Todd Howard being called a "stuttering fucktard" and a "dickhead" etc etc etc … anyone still doubting this just use the search function at NMA… I'm too lazy to include the links… if you have the doubts, then you do the work. Deal? Hell yeah! .

Of course, as you guys have said, none of this is the reason why Bethesda has blacklisted certain Fallout fansites and why they have so far been a little -as you put it- "secretive" regarding Fallout 3. Nah. Of course not.
You will probably know what they have established as the real reason on NMA, right? Exactly what Bradylama said. That Bethesda is supposedly shaking in their boots in fear of the incredible backlash that the oh-so mighty, oh-so important, uber powerful, pissed off and dangerous Fallout community would produce.

R to the O to the F to the L, folks!

That nails it. You're all nuts. Batshit crazy. Insane. Gone to lala land. Tipped over. Or maybe drug/alcohol abusers that have lost any connection with reality. I don't know what it is but it's bad. Don't even get me started on the banning practices over there or the attitude of that RushingRambo (whatever the head honcho guy's name is) dude. Or the double talk and double standards and hypocrisy as people twist and turn the "facts" or what they perceive as such until it fits their argument. Jeez. Totally crazy stuff all around. Absolutely bonkers.

Seriously, I thought the Codex was kinda like a questionable place as far as the presence of mentally stable people was concerned, but that short trip of mine to NMA completely takes the cake. It was like staring into the abyss of total mental retardation. I mean even the Retardo Land section at the Codex is by comparison only like maybe 20% as nuts as what my poor eyes just had to read at NMA. Good luck in life, guys. You're gonna need it .

Well, over and out for good this time. Promise. I finally know what the… "problems" of you people are now. Thanks for the insights .
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February 7th, 2007, 00:33
Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post
I don't really want to get tied up in this discussion but your spin on Bethsoft's marketing strategy has no basis in evidence. The rumours are just that — and look at the marketing timeline for Oblivion - were they afraid of you for that title? Pete Hines simply likes hold the the info until <12 months before release and then run a very structured, high-level blitz. I don't especially like it but it has nothing to do with NMA.
NMA? Of course not. At least, not in as far as they adapted their old marketing strategy to a new situation.

Because the situation isn't that new. They used the tactics on Oblivion too, and for both Oblivion and Star Trek they managed to use the fanbase to work for their ownc pr.

I don't think, though I wouldn't know for sure, that when Bradylama says "we" generate negative-word-of-mouth he means NMA all by its lonesome. What I know fairly surely is that Bethesda does not have a big fanbase to rely on and that the purchase of the license did not by default generate the positive word of mouth they hoped for. I was actually surprised when looking around to places where NMA's article was reposted. Places like the Elder Scrolls Forum and Gamespot Fallout 3 forum all had positive things to say about the article, and showed sympathy for the position that Bethesda still has to prove what it's all about*…What Brady is saying is that he believes the info Bethesda will show is "bad info", and that they thus won't release it until they can particularly manipulate it. Considering that the word-of-mouth is currently suspicious, they have to be careful how they work from here…

Is it true that Bethesda has only bad things to show? I don't know. For that I'd have to know what Bethesda has to show for Fallout 3 right now, and I don't.

But even if this is just normal pr-hype, we've seen the results in their last two published games, Oblivion and Legacy…so it's not exactly reason for hope, no?

* come to think of it, RPGWatch is probably the second-most negative and anti-NMA reaction to the article I've seen.
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February 7th, 2007, 01:57
Originally Posted by Kharn View Post
I don't think, though I wouldn't know for sure, that when Bradylama says "we" generate negative-word-of-mouth he means NMA all by its lonesome. What I know fairly surely is that Bethesda does not have a big fanbase to rely on and that the purchase of the license did not by default generate the positive word of mouth they hoped for. I was actually surprised when looking around to places where NMA's article was reposted. Places like the Elder Scrolls Forum and Gamespot Fallout 3 forum all had positive things to say about the article, and showed sympathy for the position that Bethesda still has to prove what it's all about*…What Brady is saying is that he believes the info Bethesda will show is "bad info", and that they thus won't release it until they can particularly manipulate it. Considering that the word-of-mouth is currently suspicious, they have to be careful how they work from here…
I don't have a fully-formed opinion on the whole article series, so I only want to address the side issues.

Bradylama's "we" is inclusive and can only represent some closed group - NMA or NMA + DAC + RPG Codex or whatever and (to me) clearly represents the paranoid view that this issue is owned by a group of anointed defenders. This in turn is part of the bigger issue - I've always enjoyed conversation with people such as yourself, Briosafreak and Odin (and many more) but the sort of closed us vs them-at-any-cost attitude often attracts misfits whose only interest is to "belong" and join in on the mayhem. These are the sort of "goat fucker" idiots that sully the whole thing.

Now, this is somewhat inevitable on a forum with open policies and has definite avantages over our own carebear approach, so I'm not trying to assert any superiority. I consider myself a fringe member of NMA and have always been sympathetic to your position.

But I understand those that aren't.

You obviously read diferent sites to me. I see a large support base for Bethsoft and a huge playerbase willing to embrace Bethsoft's vision of Fallout 3 — even if it is Oblivion with Guns, so I can't accept your premise that they have to be careful because of a lack of support. Much of their fanbase is latent because nothing has been released. When it's all revealed- for better or worse- there will be plenty of support in their corner and way more than in "ours".

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February 7th, 2007, 02:04
I hardly think Moriendor constitutes the majority of RPGWatch anyways. I say that because I can only assume that this community isn't full of trolls that take time out of their busy schedules to verbally assault guys that take time out of their busy schedules to talk about Fallout. Kind of like how Roshambo doesn't mean that NMA is full of overbearing assholes.

Irregardless of what's been said about Bethesda or Todd, it's like I said that it's still their job to communicate with us. If they've blacklisted us, then Pete isn't willing to do his job.

Also, yes, when I say "we" I mean the DAC, NMA, and Codex combined. Yes, the Codex isn't A Fallout fansite, but Vault Dweller himself takes his namesake afer the games, and there's a tremendous amount of anti-Bethesda pro-Fallout (1) sentiments. Combined we influence gamers in the tens of thousands, who also influence their friends and their friends' friends. That's how word-of-mouth works.

We provide dissenting opinion, Bethesda can't use us to market their products. That's why they've blacklisted us. A terrible move all things considered. (or soon to be)

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February 7th, 2007, 02:35
Moriendor I already made a pretty detailed story of the events since Beth got the license, with the ups and downs, I'm sorry you missed it. You also missed every post except the goatsucking ones. Here I'll show you one you missed, from Emil Pagliarulo, the lead designer from Fallout3:

Hey boys and girls,

I'm really just dropping in to say hello and introduce myself. I'm another Bethesda dev who's been lurking around the forums for a while now, but has never actually posted. It's so much easier to just sit back and watch Pete Hines get tossed into the meat grinder. Razz

I'm Emil Pagliarulo, a designer on TES 4: Oblivion. I've been at Bethesda for a couple years now. Before that I was at Ion Storm Austin, and before that at Looking Glass Studios…working on the Thief series.

I thought Thief fans were the most passionate gamers on the planet…and then I met the Elder Scrolls fans. Then I thought THEY were the most passionate gamers on the player…until I met you guys and found out you had killed all the Elder Scrolls fans and fed them to the Deathclaws! Smile

Seriously, though, you guys are awesome. In the few months I've been visiting these forums I've seen more spirited, passionate, intelligent game design discussion than I have on a lot of other game forums in the past few years.

Anyway, it's good to finally introduce myself and I promise I won't be a stranger.

Til next time, stay safe, and don't forget your Rad-X.

Emil
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February 7th, 2007, 06:41
Originally Posted by Bradylama View Post
Also, yes, when I say "we" I mean the DAC, NMA, and Codex combined. Yes, the Codex isn't A Fallout fansite, but Vault Dweller himself takes his namesake afer the games, and there's a tremendous amount of anti-Bethesda pro-Fallout (1) sentiments. Combined we influence gamers in the tens of thousands, who also influence their friends and their friends' friends. That's how word-of-mouth works.

We provide dissenting opinion, Bethesda can't use us to market their products. That's why they've blacklisted us. A terrible move all things considered. (or soon to be)
From Bethsoft's perspective, you're anti-fansites, home to "a tremendous amount of anti-Bethesda" sentiment. How is drawing attention to you the smarter play? However generous your estimation of your influence, it's utterly dwarfed by the Bethsoft marketing machine. The cost of lending the effort of that engine to your cause must surely outweigh the cost of alienating you further, if that's even possible. Which is not to overstate the magnitude of either cost; it wouldn't suprise me if they did interviews with one or more of you, since I doubt the attitude of three smaller sites will make any difference once the marketing campaign is underway. "We hate them and they'll pay for ignoring us" is just a silly position to take, though. To put it kindly.

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February 7th, 2007, 07:38
"Hate" is such a strong word.

You're also not paying that much attention. If Bethesda blacklists us before they're prepared to start the marketing blitz, it does mean that they're afraid of how much we can impact the success of their project. Once it's under way there's not much we can hope to do other than attempt to appeal to reason, and I'm not ready yet to view the world through the eyes of Mike Judge's Idiocracy.

Word-of-mouth is a powerful factor, potentially even more powerful than photoshopped screenshots and sloppy media blowjobs.

If our efforts help keep "Oblivion with guns" selling 500,000 units instead of 3 million we've essentially done enough.

Todd loves quoting the fact that horse armor sold hundreds of thousands of units, but then not every consumer is smarter than the average bear.

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February 7th, 2007, 08:39
It's ludicrous to think they are "afraid" of you. Your efforts won't have any influence whatsoever on whether they sell 3m or 500k - that rests on what Bethsoft do and how they market it. This is exactly the sort of attitude that a lot of people have a problem with.

Frankly, the whole "people bought horse armour so they must be idiots" thing proves you have a bigger agenda - presumably the fun you'll have raising havoc / calling people names / whatever, rather than purely a genuine concern for Fallout.

Are you reading this Kharn? "We" doesn't mean the greater group of Fallout fans; it means my brothers-in-arms at NMA.

The thing that really ticks me off is I'm on your "side".

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Last edited by Dhruin; February 7th, 2007 at 09:24.
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February 7th, 2007, 08:56
If Bethesda has no reason to fear us, then why blacklist us instead of doing their jobs?

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February 7th, 2007, 09:22
Do you see any Bethsoft interviews here? Does that mean I'm blacklisted? What jobs? All it suggests is that Pete Hines like to run his propaganda a particular way (which I could have told you before they got the Fallout license) and it proves even less. I'll lay a bet now that you guys will get some sort of interview or something (assuming you try) when they actually release material. Save this thread, mock me as a fuckwit if it doesn't happen…but if it does, remember that the idea of a blackban well before they are positioned to start their marketing push is tenuous.

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February 7th, 2007, 09:48
It's not about interviews, it's about correspondancies.

I really do think this is pretty silly reasoning. Why would MrSmileyFaceDude all of a sudden stop posting at the Codex practically a year ago to this day? Why would Emil post at NMA four times in two days and then suddenly a whole year's of silence? Why would they blacklist Star Trek Gaming after the release of Legacies?

If they have no reason to fear any of the communities, then why haven't they maintained correspondancies with them? It's not as if they have to reveal any information, they haven't even put forth the effort to maintain a presence.

Saving this article to mock you later would also be pretty petty, and I don't appreciate you trying to pin that on me or anybody else for that matter.

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February 7th, 2007, 10:01
Kharn, you referred to Beth blacklisting in your article. I know that their forum moderators banned references to the Codex during a hilarious trolling campaign (NWS material in there), and Brios mentioned that a dev said they weren't going to talk to you. Is there more to it than that?

And you didn't answer my question, Brady. Why is talking to you the better option? No more it's-their-duty moralising, please. What's in it for them?

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February 7th, 2007, 10:39
I'm not sure what "correspondancies" means - I guess you mean engaging your community in dialogue. The answer is in abbaon's post - they have nothing to gain. It's certainly possible the powers that be banned MSFD from posting at RPG Codex…is it also not possible that as the game approached release and the fever-pitch "who lied the most?" or trolling the ESF threads became too much, he decided he'd had enough? I don't know — and neither do you.

At the end of the day, if you take a hardline anything-goes approach, I don't think you can be surprised if a dev disengages. It's entirely your choice to make but it's an unsurprising result.

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February 7th, 2007, 11:35
Originally Posted by Bradylama View Post
Irregardless of what's been said about Bethesda or Todd, it's like I said that it's still their job to communicate with us. If they've blacklisted us, then Pete isn't willing to do his job.
I don't think that's exactly one of the points in his in job description. Seriously. Do you really think that "calming down same crazy wannabe-fanboys" is what a software development company must have people for? They better should pay their designers, programmers, etc.

Originally Posted by Bradylama View Post
We provide dissenting opinion, Bethesda can't use us to market their products. That's why they've blacklisted us. A terrible move all things considered. (or soon to be)
And there's not the slightest chance that they blacklisted you because of the continous "below the belt" attacks on Bethsoft?

Originally Posted by Bradylama View Post
Word-of-mouth is a powerful factor, potentially even more powerful than photoshopped screenshots and sloppy media blowjobs.
I absolutely disagree with this. The fallout fanbase isn't that huge. All buyers of the latest Bethesda games are a huge mass. They may rely on the sloppy media blowjobs as well.

Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post
It's ludicrous to think they are "afraid" of you. Your efforts won't have any influence whatsoever on whether they sell 3m or 500k - that rests on what Bethsoft do and how they market it. This is exactly the sort of attitude that a lot of people have a problem with.
Exactly

Originally Posted by Bradylama View Post
If they have no reason to fear any of the communities, then why haven't they maintained correspondancies with them?
hm…

DEV: We don't have anything to show yet. Just be pationed until we are ready to offer you infos.

FANBOY-TROLL REPLY: GOD. FUCK. BASTARD. etc.

Conclusion: If I were a developer (ok, I am but not on fallout 3 ; - ) I really wouldn't appreciate this. What's in it for me? You only would complain about everything I have to offer you. So it's better to stay out of the way and talk to really interested people when it's time for it.

Nuff said.

'Darkness warshed over the Dude - darker''n a black steer''s tookus on a moonless prairie night. There was no bottom.' The Stranger (The Big Lebowski, 1999)
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February 7th, 2007, 13:03
Originally Posted by Bradylama View Post
It's not about interviews, it's about correspondancies.

I really do think this is pretty silly reasoning. Why would MrSmileyFaceDude all of a sudden stop posting at the Codex practically a year ago to this day?

Can't comment on any of the other cases, but I had a short private communication with MSFD after he withdrew, and he made it pretty clear that he felt both personally offended, and attacked as a professional, and to me it was obvious that he wasn't thick skinned enough to shrug it off any longer. BTW, not long after he also discontinued posting at the TES forums and stopped receiving PM's there. I can't say if its company policy (blacklisting) or not, but a more low level agreement in the form of "guys, we really don't need to take this shit any more" seems an adequate explantion to me as well. The only times I heard clear evidence of management crackdown was in response to leaked actual information, and of course there is the rather silly ban on posting links to the Codex.
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