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March 7th, 2011, 05:08
I like many others have posted on these threads my displeasure with the changes to da 2 but….. I like many others will be picking up my reserved copy on mar. 8th. Never have I felt bad about buying a game before, but I can't help it on this one though. I'm not going to go into what I don't like , that's been done too many times.

After everything i've posted I feel like a hypocrite still buying the game, but what choice do I have really. I've played all the other party-based rpg's and the indies.I've replayed the oldies so much I'm the standing joke of my family and friends. I have a water cooled 4ghz, 480gtx ,12mb ram, 42" monitor and a 1200w 7.1 surround sound gaming beast and when they come over i'm playing baulder's gate or some other older game.

I love party based-rpg's and bioware has me in a pickle. Anyone else getting the game feeling like this?
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March 7th, 2011, 06:05
i wasn't aware a screen that is 42" was still called a monitor

i feel somewhat the same but still think it will be a good gaming experience and that it will be so different from origins i'm just imaging it as a different series in the same gameworld. the grey wardens to me were one of the best story aspects of origins besides all the myriad of choices, and i wonder if they're even going to have any bearing at all on dragon age 2. i can only hope that in the future the grey wardens will play a more active role. to me not playing as a grey warden in dragon age is kind of like playing the witcher but not playing as geralt (or another witcher)—a horrible thought.

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March 7th, 2011, 06:15
Until you actually play it I don't think you have any reason yet to call yourself a hypocrite. Maybe you'll be pleasantly surprised, or something.

If I had listened to all the talk surrounded Deus Ex 2 I would never have played it, but I was pleasantly surprised by the game, and while it wasn't as good as the first one, I enjoyed it and even thought that there were some aspects that were improved upon.

Can't really judge until you've played it for yourself.
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March 7th, 2011, 07:16
Nah.. it's not like there's an overabundance of party-based crpgs out there.
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March 7th, 2011, 08:09
I put my 42" HDTV on my desk once to see how it worked out and holy crap was it huge at that distance… gave me a headache in no time. My 28" monitor is just fine.

More on topic, I have the game pre-ordered and it should ship tomorrow from amazon to be here Tuesday. Do I feel like a hypocrite? No, I liked the demo and all the walkthrough videos look awesome to me. That said it does pain me slightly to support Bioware removing gameplay elements, both from Mass Effect for ME2 and now from Dragon Age for DA2. I loved ME2 despite that and feel I will love DA2 despite that, but I do feel slightly guilty for giving them $50 on day one when they should be punished in some way for removing content, depth and complexity.

Still, they make great games I enjoy so overall I am happy to send money their way.
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March 7th, 2011, 08:14
Originally Posted by Captain Smollett View Post
Until you actually play it I don't think you have any reason yet to call yourself a hypocrite. Maybe you'll be pleasantly surprised, or something.

If I had listened to all the talk surrounded Deus Ex 2 I would never have played it, but I was pleasantly surprised by the game, and while it wasn't as good as the first one, I enjoyed it and even thought that there were some aspects that were improved upon.

Can't really judge until you've played it for yourself.
Agreed.

The problem a lot of people get into is expecting sequels to be exactly like the previous installment. Deus Ex: Invisible War is a great game in my opinion and I make no apologies for liking it. Does it stand up to the original? Fuck no… not even a little bit. Judged on its own though is it a good FPS/RPG game? Yes, I think so.

Similarly people want Dragon Age 2 to be exactly what the former was and miss that it's a good part-based tactical RPG in its own right, despite some changes both positive and negative.
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March 7th, 2011, 10:06
Originally Posted by DoctorNarrative View Post
Agreed.

The problem a lot of people get into is expecting sequels to be exactly like the previous installment. Deus Ex: Invisible War is a great game in my opinion and I make no apologies for liking it. Does it stand up to the original? Fuck no… not even a little bit. Judged on its own though is it a good FPS/RPG game? Yes, I think so.

Similarly people want Dragon Age 2 to be exactly what the former was and miss that it's a good part-based tactical RPG in its own right, despite some changes both positive and negative.
I agree about Invisible War. I actually had the benefit (from an "ignorant" of the original standpoint) of having never played Deus Ex in 2003 when Invisible War came out (didn't have a computer that could run the original Dues Ex back then. Don't laugh, it was a bit of a "system hog" in those days). I absolutely loved it, and was shocked that so many people hated it. A few years later, I finally played the original Deus Ex, and I could immediately see why people thought the first was better. It's just a shame that those perceptions caused so much hatred for Invisible War, which wasn't as good, but was still a great experience for me and didn't deserve its fate as a mostly forgotten game.

As far as DA2 goes, perception might play a role in the disappointment, as it's only natural to expect a sequel to be similar to its predecessor. However, for me personally, it's not the fact that DA2 is different that truly bothers me; Invisible War taught me the lesson long ago that not all changes should be hated in a sequel, and that an open mind can allow one to enjoy a variety of gameplay experiences. What has caused my complaints about DA2 has been an objective look at what these changes are, and I have judged the game purely as its own entity. A lot of the changes in DA2 do not feel like improvements, they feel like a step in the wrong direction, leaving the underwhelming feeling that DA2 is not a new experience, but a watered-down version of a previous experience. Redundancy is not innovation. These changes that have been made have not been implemented from a creative or artistic standpoint to make the game better, but from a financial standpoint. I know that I am an idealist, but I still understand the need to for a game to be financially successful. However, any design decisions that go beyond the need to be financially secure, or changes that are openly created purely for the sake of creating larger profit margins, are really hard to stomach and clearly do not add any depth to a game.

Even then, an enjoyable game is an enjoyable game regardless of why a game has been designed in a particular way, but DA2 is not a game that I will enjoy. Not because it's different, because change can be a good thing if the changes are innovative, but because it's unappealing from an objective standpoint. It is unappealing to me not as a sequel to DA:O, but is unappealing as it's own unique entity.
Last edited by Nerevarine; March 7th, 2011 at 11:11.
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March 7th, 2011, 10:41
Originally Posted by Nerevarine View Post
As far as DA2 goes, perception might play a role in the disappointment, as it's only natural to expect a sequel to be similar to its predecessor. However, for me personally, it's not the fact that DA2 is different that bothers truly me; Invisible War taught me the lesson long ago that not all changes should be hated in a sequel, and that an open mind can allow one to enjoy a variety of gameplay experiences. What has caused my complaints about DA2 has been an objective look at what these changes are, and I have judged the game purely as its own entity. A lot of the changes in DA2 do not feel like improvements, they feel like a step in the wrong direction, leaving the underwhelming feeling that DA2 is not a new experience, but a watered-down version of a previous experience. Redundancy is not innovation. These changes that have been made have not been implemented from a creative or artistic standpoint to make the game better, but from a financial standpoint. I know that I am an idealist, but I still understand the need to for a game to be financially successful. However, any design decisions that go beyond the need to be financially secure, or changes that are openly created purely for the sake of creating larger profit margins, are really hard to stomach and clearly do not add any depth to a game.
Well spoken, even though someone will probably still find a way to accuse you of simply spewing hate towards Bioware.

I couldn't play Deus Ex at release either. As I recall, it ran like crap on anything other than a 3DFX/Glide card, until a patch was released later. I didn't play DX until after Invisible War was released, so I had the pleasure of playing them back to back.

Despite playing IW immediately after DX, I still enjoyed it. I even think it could have been close to DX if the level design hadn't been so limited.
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March 7th, 2011, 10:45
Originally Posted by sakichop View Post
I like many others have posted on these threads my displeasure with the changes to da 2 but….. I like many others will be picking up my reserved copy on mar. 8th. Never have I felt bad about buying a game before, but I can't help it on this one though. I'm not going to go into what I don't like , that's been done too many times.

After everything i've posted I feel like a hypocrite still buying the game, but what choice do I have really. I've played all the other party-based rpg's and the indies.I've replayed the oldies so much I'm the standing joke of my family and friends. I have a water cooled 4ghz, 480gtx ,12mb ram, 42" monitor and a 1200w 7.1 surround sound gaming beast and when they come over i'm playing baulder's gate or some other older game.

I love party based-rpg's and bioware has me in a pickle. Anyone else getting the game feeling like this?
With 12 MB of RAM I'm shocked you can play anything past Daggerfall or other late DOS/early Win95 games. j/k

I've not been as outspoken a critic (mostly because I'm rather inactive on most forums these days), but I decided to not buy DA2 like I did DA:O at launch. If I get it, it'll be after it drops in price to $5, and maybe not then. I already have too many games which I played once and then chunked to the side. Don't need another one.

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March 7th, 2011, 11:25
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Well spoken, even though someone will probably still find a way to accuse you of simply spewing hate towards Bioware.

I couldn't play Deus Ex at release either. As I recall, it ran like crap on anything other than a 3DFX/Glide card, until a patch was released later. I didn't play DX until after Invisible War was released, so I had the pleasure of playing them back to back.

Despite playing IW immediately after DX, I still enjoyed it. I even think it could have been close to DX if the level design hadn't been so limited.
Well I sure hope not

As far as IW goes, I agree that the limited level size was a major reason why the original was ultimately a better game overall. When I played through the Statue of Liberty level for the first time (and then every subsequent level after that) I was very impressed by the size of the levels. And it wasn't meaningless size, either - each level was lovingly crafted and full of alternate pathways, secrets, and subtle details. However, even though IW's levels were lacking in size, I still think that the quality of the original's level design was there, and I have very fond memories of playing both games.
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March 7th, 2011, 14:27
Originally Posted by sakichop View Post
I love party based-rpg's and bioware has me in a pickle. Anyone else getting the game feeling like this?
I do.
I've two PC's, one for the daily duties and other tuned for gaming. In the last 4 months the gaming unit has not been in use, because I just played Geneforge 5 and BG, and for that my daily unit is more than enough. I'll get my pre order DA2, but I'll not play it soon, mainly because I'm having a blast with Trilogy. More, I'm positive it will be a step down in what was DA:O, in terms of cRPG. In other forums I already stated my displeasure towards the path that modern gaming seems to follow.
Yes, like the OP I'm feeling hypocrite by buying DA2.
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March 7th, 2011, 15:21
Originally Posted by DoctorNarrative View Post
Agreed.

The problem a lot of people get into is expecting sequels to be exactly like the previous installment.
Except fixing all the things they didn't like with better graphics and sounds, twice the content, using half the disk space, and at half the price plus it gives back rubs while you play it and walks your dog.

Deus Ex: Invisible War is a great game in my opinion and I make no apologies for liking it. Does it stand up to the original? Fuck no… not even a little bit. Judged on its own though is it a good FPS/RPG game? Yes, I think so.

Similarly people want Dragon Age 2 to be exactly what the former was and miss that it's a good part-based tactical RPG in its own right, despite some changes both positive and negative.
Imagine if people treated food like they do games. We'll all stop eating and die because the meals I have today aren't better than the ones I had yesterday and MIGHT BE WORSE! Oh my GOD! Those thrice-d*mned greedy restaurants are ripping us ALL OFF!
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March 7th, 2011, 15:47
Originally Posted by BillSeurer View Post

Imagine if people treated food like they do games. We'll all stop eating and die because the meals I have today aren't better than the ones I had yesterday and MIGHT BE WORSE! Oh my GOD! Those thrice-d*mned greedy restaurants are ripping us ALL OFF!
I hope you will allow me an off topic joke here:

"Daddy, why are programs like MS Word called word processors?"
"Son, you've seen a food processor and what such a thing does to food."

Says Pibbur who (like BillSeurer?) thinks maybe we would have more fun if we looked at each game on it's own, and not always as part of a series. Example: Was Ultima IX a bad game, or just a bad Ultima game.

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March 7th, 2011, 16:14
I indeed think that games (and food and movies and …) should be judged on their own.

I also wished that games were written this way instead of the never ending quest to one-up each other in the overly expensive parts that don't add much to the game.
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March 7th, 2011, 16:23
saki, i am disappoint = \

drop and give me 200 respawning cellar rat kills
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March 7th, 2011, 17:20
Originally Posted by DoctorNarrative View Post
I put my 42" HDTV on my desk once to see how it worked out and holy crap was it huge at that distance… gave me a headache in no time. My 28" monitor is just fine.
Had that problem at first. Then i put the monitor on the wall and moved my desk back works great now.



Originally Posted by BillSeurer View Post
I indeed think that games (and food and movies and …) should be judged on their own.
That is probably the best way to look at da2 as it is a totally different game, had they named it Dragon age: the hawke chronicles. An exciting arpg set in the dragon age universe then I would look at it totally different and check it out for what it is. the problem is, they didn't the named it dragon age 2 which makes it part of a series and it's only human nature then to compare it to the first. Everybody and everything sets a level of expectation. If you have an employee that does excellent work for you , you grow to expect that and if it doesn't happen you say what the heck. If you follow an athlete or sports team that has a great year. You expect the next year to be equal or greater and yes if you go to a restaurant and the food is great you are disappointed if it's worse the next visit. (but don't stop eating all together that would be bad.). So I think judging things totally independent of each other in a series is unrealistic, but in this case probably the best idea. In the end i'm hoping it turns out to be great and rids me of any buyers remorse.

Originally Posted by xSamhainx View Post
saki, i am disappoint = \

drop and give me 200 respawning cellar rat kills
How about 10 giant rats. That should equal out.
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March 7th, 2011, 20:18
The only thing I truly miss with sequels is the H-word : "Heldenimport !!!" (This is an insider's joke among the German-language members of the Larian forums : "We" were discussion the matter of "hero imports" ("Heldenimport" = "hero impert") from a game into a sequel, like it could be done with the Realms Of Arcania series, so extensively that it because a joke in itself : "Don't utter ever on this board the H-word or there'll be unleashed a 200+ pages long heated, almost flame-warish discussion !" - In this way, although quite exaggerated. )

So, to make it short : I do miss the the possibility to import heroes from previous games. Sadly no-one does it anymore (except Bioware, maybe …)

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March 8th, 2011, 09:54
I won't be buying it, or Mass Effect 3 (big fan of DA 1 and ME 1). But I will probably rent them just to be sure I'm not missing out on anything.
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March 8th, 2011, 11:10
Originally Posted by sakichop View Post



That is probably the best way to look at da2 as it is a totally different game, had they named it Dragon age: the hawke chronicles. An exciting arpg set in the dragon age universe then I would look at it totally different and check it out for what it is. the problem is, they didn't the named it dragon age 2 which makes it part of a series and it's only human nature then to compare it to the first. Everybody and everything sets a level of expectation. If you have an employee that does excellent work for you , you grow to expect that and if it doesn't happen you say what the heck. If you follow an athlete or sports team that has a great year. You expect the next year to be equal or greater and yes if you go to a restaurant and the food is great you are disappointed if it's worse the next visit. (but don't stop eating all together that would be bad.). So I think judging things totally independent of each other in a series is unrealistic, but in this case probably the best idea. In the end i'm hoping it turns out to be great and rids me of any buyers remorse.


)
I was just thinking that. It doesn't seem to be a continuation of the story ala BG2, but rather a separate story set in the same world, ala Icewind Dale.
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March 8th, 2011, 19:44
I have similar feelings.

I've bought, and derived at least some enjoyment from, every Black Isle/Bioware/Troika/Obsidian game since 1998. The idea of not buying DA2, and walking away from over a decade of supporting these companies and enjoying their games, is disquieting.

On the other hand, I feel that I need to make a stand and not purchase DA2 in order to avoid becoming an active participant in the destruction of something that has been a huge part of how I've entertained myself for most of my adult life. Between the reduction in exploration, explosion in various pre-order and other marketing-related DLCs, elimination of skills and crafting, streamlining of the dialogue and inventory systems, and further removal of the need for strategic planning and tactical decision making (I feel like these have been in decline for a while, having peaked with Wizardry 8 and TOEE Ironman) it's clear that DA2 is a pretty big assault on what remains of the traditional RPG.

Oddly enough, I wasn't even a huge fan of DA:O, so I'm not offended by the sequel undergoing change . Unfortunately, instead of keeping what worked and tweaking the aspects that needed help, they decided to cater the game to players and journalists who hate traditional RPGs.

Unfortunately, with a simple binary means of providing or denying support to a company, it leaves the interpretation of sales figures up to the predisposition of their marketing management. Most likely, if I buy it they'll interpret that as meaning that this anti-RPG experiment worked, so they should keep dumbing down their games. And if I don't buy it, they'll probably interpret that as meaning that I was too intimidated by the remaining stats and RPG features, so they'll also keep dumbing down their games.
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