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Default Dragonrage 2 is the best written rpg since cryscape:tearment

March 19th, 2011, 23:19
Besides the obvious downfall of DA 2 (and most modern cRPG's for that matter), in this new era we get SPOKEN DIALOGUES. Could you even imagine the amount of resources (not only financial) that would have been needed in order to make PST full voiced?

Maybe for the new generation that likes games like DA 2 spoken dialogues is important but they are missing the fact that a well written "wall of text" might be more complicated and fun to (role)play. Not to mention that your answers WILL/MIGHT actually have a real effect.
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March 20th, 2011, 00:10
My main, personal, worst problem woth the dialogs in Dragon Age 2 was - I played the demo in my own language, of course, although I perhaps should've done it in English as well - was that the short "summary" sometimes didn't contain at all what I intended.

The problem with this is that these 3 or so words are so much vague, that they can be interpreted in various ways.

And obviously i interpreted them in some places in ways that the game didn't intend to.

To me, that's a clear break between the role I'm supposed to play, and the role that the game wants to play (for me).

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March 20th, 2011, 00:25
Is really have the full sentences for dialogs would improve them? It's hard to say without to try, I don't think so for me because I don't even quote there's a new system. And as I mentioned I feel long sentences can be more perversely ambiguous.

But well is this system make the story and dialogs less good, I don't think so but it's hard to be sure.

The roleplay in dialogs is also something I don't share, that could explain the difference of point of view. There is never the sentence in dialog options for my roleplay so I gave up trying a careful roleplay through dialog. And anyway the point is I don't feel the choice are subtle by themselves but because of the whole context the dialog setup before.
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March 20th, 2011, 00:50
Each to their own. But for me, yes, full dialogue would have been nicer.

I had trouble with dialogue wheel in ME2, and DA2 was worse. ME2 used red/blue to show renegade/paragon option, so even though I didn't get dialogues I imagined, the result is what I wanted (most of the time). In DA2, when I choose jest icon sometimes it sounds more like an insult to whoever you are talking to, flirt button sounds absolutely awakward, it was just terrible.

And sometimes, I hate the whole "fully voiced" game. It limits your dialogue options. Like bloodlover pointed out, you CANNOT voice amount of dialogues in Torment (not that many games have that much dialogue in 1st place). Obvious result, less dialogues, less companions in game.

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March 20th, 2011, 03:25
Dragon Age 2 is bad.

Planescape: Torment, on the other hand…
All games can be nitpicked one way or the other, finishing Torment rulez hard. Who´s indifferent http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXv95nrat_s
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March 20th, 2011, 03:34
[QUOTE=DeepO;1061057635]Dragon Age 2 is bad.

QUOTE]

Thats your opinion.

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March 20th, 2011, 03:43
[QUOTE=rune_74;1061057637]
Originally Posted by DeepO View Post
Dragon Age 2 is bad.

QUOTE]

Thats your opinion.
It is, indeed.
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March 20th, 2011, 09:41
Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer View Post
My main, personal, worst problem woth the dialogs in Dragon Age 2 was - I played the demo in my own language, of course, although I perhaps should've done it in English as well - was that the short "summary" sometimes didn't contain at all what I intended.

The problem with this is that these 3 or so words are so much vague, that they can be interpreted in various ways.

And obviously i interpreted them in some places in ways that the game didn't intend to.

To me, that's a clear break between the role I'm supposed to play, and the role that the game wants to play (for me).
But there are also the same problems with a full dialog system: How will the npc interpret what I just said? If you have only fully written dialog choices you have to assume that everything is meant deadly serious. Because sarcasm, irony or humor is up to interpretation (I actually had that problem in a few games where I said something that was IMO appropriate and the other bloke attacked me because the game writer didn't think my choice was sarcastic but rather an insult or meant serious). With the dialog wheel/the symbols you can at least see how your response is meant.

My problem with the new dialog system is that there is nearly no way to talk yourself out of a given situation (as possible in NWN, Fallout New Vegas, Gothic, etc) although I feel that this is a design choice and not a real problem with the dialog system.
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March 20th, 2011, 10:17
Originally Posted by purpleblob View Post
Each to their own. But for me, yes, full dialogue would have been nicer.

I had trouble with dialogue wheel in ME2, and DA2 was worse. ME2 used red/blue to show renegade/paragon option, so even though I didn't get dialogues I imagined, the result is what I wanted (most of the time). In DA2, when I choose jest icon sometimes it sounds more like an insult to whoever you are talking to, flirt button sounds absolutely awakward, it was just terrible.

And sometimes, I hate the whole "fully voiced" game. It limits your dialogue options. Like bloodlover pointed out, you CANNOT voice amount of dialogues in Torment (not that many games have that much dialogue in 1st place). Obvious result, less dialogues, less companions in game.
The problem of voice acting vs text dialog is quite more important for the NPC dialogs than the character dialogs. Long dialogs in PS:T aren't the character dialogs but NPC dialogs.

Overall the main character voice acting is just a little detail when compared to all other NPC voice acting.
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March 20th, 2011, 14:01
Originally Posted by Roi Danton View Post
Because sarcasm, irony or humor is up to interpretation
I agree.

And this is especially a problem with Autists, who have problems with intepreting into these directions, as far as I know.

And developers just don't think of them - they don't think in terms of minorities anyways, because minorities (among gamers) = too much work = too much costs.


I just wanted to give an example of my own ways of interpreting :

The English word "mind", for example, is so vague - compared to the German language - that there doesn't exist a direct translation for it in the German language. "Mind" can be translated with the rather older word of "Gemüt" Ive seen that, ctually), with "Geist", and with "brain", ith a much more physical ote.

However - and here we come to my second example - the word "Geist" is so "straight" that the German language has another problem : It can ONLY be interpreted as "ghost" or as … "spirit". Well, what's going on in your mind … on a rather spiritual level, but also on the level of Thinking in general. Thinking and Geist are closely related to one aother".

However, the English language has *several* words for which there exists only ONE word in the German language : Ghost, Spectre, Wraith, Spirit etc. … All of them are only "Geist" in the Germn language. there simply is no ther translation possible.
Which implies - as I think - that from YOUR perspective, the German word o "Geist" is so vague it cn be translated in TOO many different ways … The similar problem that we have with "mind" in the German language.

These are nothing but interpretations.

And if I'm a language-sensitive person, then I must ALSO keep in mind that these are only TRANLATONS of something that was originally written in the English lnguage - and that these English words CAN be interpreted b professional translaters and that some meaning(s) of the ORIGINAL word might have gone LOST … The worse the wose the transltors are. I think you know it from foreign games yourself.

The average gamer, however, just isn't language-sensitive, I assume.
They just take things for granted - and literally. Translations, I mean.
So, if in a dialogue the *original* intention got lost during the translation process, the foreign gamer might activate a cvertain dialogue option - and is surprised that the ctual reslt isn't as expected.
But the underlying engine just still carries this dialogue decision on. Even if it i a distorted -> wrong decision.

Hence my opinion that 3 words are just too vague - they leave imho too much room for interpretation.

This is my opinion on the matter. and that mor detailed ording would make interpretation much easier.
Apart from things like Irony, Sarcasm etc. .

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March 20th, 2011, 14:29
Originally Posted by Roi Danton View Post
But there are also the same problems with a full dialog system: How will the npc interpret what I just said? If you have only fully written dialog choices you have to assume that everything is meant deadly serious. Because sarcasm, irony or humor is up to interpretation (I actually had that problem in a few games where I said something that was IMO appropriate and the other bloke attacked me because the game writer didn't think my choice was sarcastic but rather an insult or meant serious). With the dialog wheel/the symbols you can at least see how your response is meant.

My problem with the new dialog system is that there is nearly no way to talk yourself out of a given situation (as possible in NWN, Fallout New Vegas, Gothic, etc) although I feel that this is a design choice and not a real problem with the dialog system.
There's a HUGE difference between worrying how an NPC will take what I say and worrying about what my character will actually say. HUGE difference. The former could be argued as part of the game, managing personalities and suffering the effects of yours. The latter is game-breaking, making me say things I did not want to say and suffering the consequences of those inaccurate sayings.

There were many times in DA2 where what I would say was unclear. The little red fist tells me I am angry but who am I angry at? Doesn't say. So when Meredith tells me every mage is a blood mage and my angry choice says "are they?" does that mean I will ask her to prove it or does it mean I will tell her she's full of shit or does it mean I am shocked and appalled they all are and we should kill them immediately? I HAVE NO IDEA.
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March 20th, 2011, 14:46
The little red fist could also just be a plain Communist logo - directly out of the USSR.

And I must admit that this was my very first, instant association with it.

“ Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in the opposite direction.“ (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
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March 20th, 2011, 19:15
i always thought the 'humor' in Biowear games was simple enough that anyone could understand it or at least make a person ''wts? was that meant to be funny?''. Sometimes theyre just unintentionally funny, e.g, like the awakward animation that always takes place in their games like that song leliana sings in DA where the lip sync is completely out of touch with the song.

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March 20th, 2011, 19:47
Originally Posted by SAGO View Post
i always thought the 'humor' in Biowear games
I was enjoying bantar between Merrill and Isabella last night when it occurred to me that the exchange was nearly identical to something between Mission and Bastilla in KotOR … if Merrill had tripped Isabella using magic I think I would have cried …

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March 21st, 2011, 00:11
Hm, yes, the banter - okay. I found the banter between Shale / Morrigan hilarious, and the same with Morrigan / the Dwarf …

“ Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in the opposite direction.“ (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
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March 21st, 2011, 00:22
If you like the humerous side of the banter in DA:O then make sure you play DA: Awakening. I found the banter in particular to be superior in the expansion, especially the funny stuff.
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March 21st, 2011, 01:15
The party banter is very good in DA2 as well. That's certainly not one the areas they lost ground on.
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March 21st, 2011, 01:16
Originally Posted by DeepO View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXv95nrat_s
Who made this music? Thats pretty awesome.
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March 21st, 2011, 01:26
… I was not being overly complimentary - it is decent, but much of it is as original as 'warehouse #41' being identical to the previous 40 warehouses and so on … or as original as Bastilla felt after following Lady Aribeth around for 80 hours …

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March 21st, 2011, 03:15
Originally Posted by Damian Mahadevan View Post
Who made this music? Thats pretty awesome.
Mark Morgan.
He also made music for the first two Fallouts for example.
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