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Default Dragonrage 2 is the best written rpg since cryscape:tearment

March 21st, 2011, 04:26
Originally Posted by DeepO View Post
Mark Morgan.
He also made music for the first two Fallouts for example.
Allods online? Dammit looks like a game i might try for the music alone.
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March 21st, 2011, 12:10
To be honest, the writing is pretty good in DA2. That's hardly where it fails. The plot is generally interesting, and the characters are fairly well written. Best writing since PS: T? Probably not, as Obsidian pretty much always trumps BioWare when it comes to writing, but it's probably the best non-Obsidian game since PS: T.
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March 21st, 2011, 13:03
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
If you like the humerous side of the banter in DA:O then make sure you play DA: Awakening. I found the banter in particular to be superior in the expansion, especially the funny stuff.
Thanks.

I'm planning to buy the "ultimate" package anyway.

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March 21st, 2011, 13:25
Originally Posted by Maylander View Post
Probably not, as Obsidian pretty much always trumps BioWare when it comes to writing, but it's probably the best non-Obsidian game since PS: T.
Better than The Witcher? I find that hard to believe.
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March 21st, 2011, 13:26
Originally Posted by Maylander View Post
To be honest, the writing is pretty good in DA2. That's hardly where it fails. The plot is generally interesting, and the characters are fairly well written. Best writing since PS: T? Probably not, as Obsidian pretty much always trumps BioWare when it comes to writing, but it's probably the best non-Obsidian game since PS: T.
Aside from my feeling that The Witcher fills the "best non-Obsidian game since PS: T." slot …

My issue is that - as mentioned with the banter - the development cycle was so short that while the main story and characters were all fleshed out along with content to last you for dozens of hours … everything is like the mansion / dungeon / cliff-space / warehouse. In other words, it is all copy & paste from the 'great tome of Bioware tropes'.

Bioware has always had good writing, so it is good here. But there is so much 'filler' - the little item non-quests, the fact that 99% of battles are what Jeff Vogel called 'trash mobs', that I have heard near-identical banter from other Bioware games popping up here … it all just combines to accentuate just how much of a rush-job the game is.

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March 21st, 2011, 14:02
Well, I'm one of few around here that considers TW overrated, so yes, I do rate DA2 above TW. The point still remains: There aren't many games that do writing better than DA2, aside from Obsidian games.
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March 21st, 2011, 14:50
Originally Posted by Maylander View Post
Well, I'm one of few around here that considers TW overrated, so yes, I do rate DA2 above TW. The point still remains: There aren't many games that do writing better than DA2, aside from Obsidian games.
You know… you might be right. As disappointing as I found the choices and the ending scenes there is very strong writing in DA2. It's certainly not the game's weak point, that is clear.

I don't think it's the best non-Obsidian RPG writing since Planescape though. For one thing DA: Origins is better, if you ask me.
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March 21st, 2011, 16:24
Unfortunately, writing is only one part of any RPG. Otherwise, I'd just pick up a book.
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March 21st, 2011, 16:53
Originally Posted by Drithius View Post
Unfortunately, writing is only one part of any RPG. Otherwise, I'd just pick up a book.
Exactly… which is probably why PS:T doesn't rate as highly with me as it does with many others. The dialogue was terrific, but I found much of the actual gameplay to be meh..
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March 21st, 2011, 17:10
Originally Posted by Drithius View Post
Unfortunately, writing is only one part of any RPG. Otherwise, I'd just pick up a book.
Of course.

And it's not even interactive writing, since the story is so linear and the choices so irrelevant. Which is a shame.
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March 21st, 2011, 19:18
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Exactly… which is probably why PS:T doesn't rate as highly with me as it does with many others. The dialogue was terrific, but I found much of the actual gameplay to be meh..
Whereas the writing and execution of a story are more important to me than just about anything else, because I love books so much. Reading a story is good, but actively participating in a story is so much better.
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March 21st, 2011, 22:03
Originally Posted by Maylander View Post
To be honest, the writing is pretty good in DA2. That's hardly where it fails. The plot is generally interesting, and the characters are fairly well written. Best writing since PS: T? Probably not, as Obsidian pretty much always trumps BioWare when it comes to writing, but it's probably the best non-Obsidian game since PS: T.
I haven't finished DA2 yet so don't have your global point of view. But I finished chapter 2 so already have a large point of view of the game.

I think that the story telling quality is uneven and the writing quality is uneven. There are some very well done part like the serial murder quest, the story around the Quanry, some companions quests, and more. Also the end of chapter and beginning of next chapter are good emotion with a nice part of nostalgia. How this is done setup well the few years past since previous chapter. The little story complement for each companions plus all the letters related to past choices build very well some emotion with a bit of nostalgia. All that points are quite good story telling and story writing.

But it's uneven, there's quite many quests that are rather average from story point of view, the companions are attaching but tend to lack of strength. Companions participation to the general adventure is better but for all the material spread the result efficiency is weak. For example, often with much less material used, BG1 could setup much stronger companions.

And one point decrease the whole game efficiency and it's all about story telling and writing quality. With DA2 Bioware changed totally their global plot structure to try something using less long linear sequences. Instead of some long sequences, each chapter (1&2) spread multiple shorter sequences, they mean little stories less long, and this try to setup a global web building a sort of non linear story. The intention is here and that difficult approach can work very well, but here it doesn't work that well. I think they tried innovate in they story telling but didn't succeed very well in this attempt. Chapter 1 suffer a lot of it, and Chapter 2 suffer in part of it.
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March 21st, 2011, 22:11
Do you know what "adventure books" are ?

For TDE, they exist for quite a long time, and even in the RPG genre the idea is not new : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lone_Wolf_(gamebooks)

You read a section, then you have to make a choice, wich leads you to page 25 or to page 365, for example … And they are still bo0oks.

And you get actual experience points for the pen & paper characters you play with these adventures - in TDE.

I even remember a book teaching me Geometry during my school time, which used the same mechanic … And I also have a similar book on one of my shelves called "Odyssey" …

I don't know whether these "Solo Adventures", as they are called for TDE, exist for (A)D&D or/and other systems as well ?

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March 21st, 2011, 22:23
Originally Posted by Maylander View Post
To be honest, the writing is pretty good in DA2. That's hardly where it fails. The plot is generally interesting, and the characters are fairly well written. Best writing since PS: T? Probably not, as Obsidian pretty much always trumps BioWare when it comes to writing, but it's probably the best non-Obsidian game since PS: T.
I don't know… I didn't find DA2 story all that compelling. I thought it's rather ridiculous.

All incidents in Kirkwall could be easily avoided if the city was not populated by people with extreme personality disorder. Clearly, everyone can see Meredith and Anders are nuts. Qunari incident could have been solved if Isabela decided to use her brain did somethign about relics earlier rather than waiting 4 freaking years to build up so much tension. Could have made difference if Hawke's words were more influencial. Couldn't change Arishok, Anders nor Meredith, and didn't even seen trustworthy to Isabela until it was too late.

Also, about 90% of quests involved freaking blood mage/templar. You would think without templars and blood mages, the whole Kirkwall will be empty. Oh, and bandits. If I were Hawke, I would have left Kirkwall long time ago.

The plot wasn't quite so predictable as other Bioware games but that doesn't make story good. I was always satisfied with companion writings, so no complaints there but no surprise either.

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March 21st, 2011, 22:31
Originally Posted by purpleblob View Post
I don't know… I didn't find DA2 story all that compelling. I thought it's rather ridiculous. All incidents in Kirkwall could be easily avoided if the city was not populated by people with extreme personality disorder. Clearly, everyone can see Meredith and Anders are nuts…
Sure some B..h was nuts for ton of people, and still got two president mandate…

Myself from chapter 1&2 point of view I felt the story more interesting than the usual save the world, and not at all ridiculous. For Isabella choice, the game provides you many hints she is slightly insane, remember when you meet her and how she trigger the fight? And you get quite more hints about her personality. So no, have her behave that stupidly is in total logic of her personality. And I don't see anybody able to influence her, again that's her obvious personality. Sure if you know the future then you could decide kill her but you aren't supposed to know the future.
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March 23rd, 2011, 04:05
Originally Posted by Dasale View Post
Sure some B..h was nuts for ton of people, and still got two president mandate…

Myself from chapter 1&2 point of view I felt the story more interesting than the usual save the world, and not at all ridiculous. For Isabella choice, the game provides you many hints she is slightly insane, remember when you meet her and how she trigger the fight? And you get quite more hints about her personality. So no, have her behave that stupidly is in total logic of her personality. And I don't see anybody able to influence her, again that's her obvious personality. Sure if you know the future then you could decide kill her but you aren't supposed to know the future.
depends on how you interpret her, she gave the impression (to me) that she has a very 'live and let live' sort of personality and didn't dwell on things too much, not because she is a shallow person but rather an appropriate way to live in an eviroment where life for the majority is crap and getting killed for money is somewhat the norm.

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March 23rd, 2011, 09:48
Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer View Post
Do you know what "adventure books" are ?

I don't know whether these "Solo Adventures", as they are called for TDE, exist for (A)D&D or/and other systems as well ?
Some have been port on iPad, I played few, and it didn't age much so it's good to play, well read is more exact. But it's not amazing entertainment.

A guy tried create a new series (Gamebook Adventures by Tin Man), still on iPad. I played the first, Gamebook Adventures 1: An Assassin in Orlandes. I felt it a bit more interesting than other, the choices and consequences was well developed and highlighted. But again it's mainly reading plus a bit of gaming, and not much links with RPG video games.

EDIT: I didn't mention but I played ton of them in real book format, but that's long ago.
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March 23rd, 2011, 09:54
Originally Posted by SAGO View Post
depends on how you interpret her, she gave the impression (to me) that she has a very 'live and let live' sort of personality and didn't dwell on things too much, not because she is a shallow person but rather an appropriate way to live in an eviroment where life for the majority is crap and getting killed for money is somewhat the norm.
Well Merrill is a sort of mystery, I agree that her apparent naivety is to link more with a different way of living she isn't used to. Perhaps the writers caricature it a bit too much. But the point is it let feel to be in total opposition with her courage to go against the whole clan for convictions. This putting her in a position between fanatics and people that have the courage to make stuff move despite all obstacles.
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March 23rd, 2011, 11:25
Mask of the Betrayer. /end of thread. (Seriously, it's a ridiculous meritless claim.)

@ Alrik - You make a good connection there about gamebooks. I'm a collector of them actually (Have all Fighting Fantasies and the first 18 LoneWolf). They were definitely the main catalyst for me as a kid for getting into role-playing games.

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March 23rd, 2011, 11:52
The Lone Wolf books are currently being reprinted or so. At the last RPC their author was there for a signing sessen, but alas I idn't have enough money anymore with me.

And … well, as I said before, they are relatively popular (in printed form, of course !) for the TDE system.

Sad that so few TDE stuff is translated yet …

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