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RPGWatch Forums » Games » General RPG » I want… a new BG: TotSC game.

Default I want… a new BG: TotSC game.

March 24th, 2011, 18:14
Is that so mush to ask, oh game developers on high?

A sprawling dungeon, a poignant story, a lurking evil!

Oh well, random wish for the day.
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March 24th, 2011, 18:24
I'm on board with that, but why just BG: TotSC?

There is a project over at G3 where a guy is doing his own version of a BG3. It's set 20 years later and you play the son or daughter of your character from the first two IIRC. Supposed to have lots of original areas, not sure if there is a sprawling dungeon though!

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March 24th, 2011, 18:29
I'm impressed by how alive the BG modding community is…and how big my install become every time I want to replay them.
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March 24th, 2011, 18:33
Yeah it is quite amazing. I just wish more focus was made on Total Conversion mods. I'm sure I'll fire up BG and BG2 and play through again some time in the next few years, and while I'll add some new mods in to change it up some, a complete new story would be very refreshing.

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March 24th, 2011, 18:35
I total conversion of bg and bg2 with the combat system of TOEE(turnbased d&d 3.5), I'd pay ALOT for that.
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March 24th, 2011, 19:04
Originally Posted by blatantninja View Post
I'm on board with that, but why just BG: TotSC?

Because it's a dungeon with a story that slowly unfolds. The highlight of the BG series for me was always the discovery of a new piece of history and lore. So the highpoint was TotSC. Watcher's keep, while ok, was too compartmentalized for my tastes with much less grip on my interest; the story told wasn't as personal as TotSC's.
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March 24th, 2011, 20:17
The highlight for me was the main story of the original campaign and the way it unfolded. I also loved the tactical combat. The giant dungeon in TotSC? Not so much, I generally don't like spending too much time in a single dungeon. I prefer more open exploration.
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March 24th, 2011, 20:42
Originally Posted by Maylander View Post
The highlight for me was the main story of the original campaign and the way it unfolded. I also loved the tactical combat. The giant dungeon in TotSC? Not so much, I generally don't like spending too much time in a single dungeon. I prefer more open exploration.
The lack of a true dungeon in the original campaign was my main gripe about it. (My second gripe was that the end sequence was basically kill the bad guy, roll credits). I didn't have TotSC installed when I played through the first time either. Overall, I wasn't that impressed with TotSC for several reasons:

1) I really don't like expansion packs that occur in the middle of the game. I like ones that pick up the story and go on from there
2) While I thought the tower/dungeon was well done from a construction stand point, I had the exact opposite reaction as Drithius. Since the story had nothing to do with the main story of the game, I didn't get engaged with it.
3) That demon you find in the basement in the village of Ulgoth's Beard was basically impossible to kill. I hate that. I don't want the big enemies to be easyl, but when you have to reload 20 times to find that one tiny weakness, then another 20 to damage it enough that way to kill it, I find it rather annoying.

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Last edited by blatantninja; March 25th, 2011 at 12:19.
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March 25th, 2011, 01:50
I loved exploring Durlag's Tower. To this day it's still one of my favorite dungeons in a crpg.
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March 25th, 2011, 07:50
@ JDR13

You stole my line, mate. Agreed with you 100% on that.

I even liked Durlag's Tower more than Watcher's Keep, which was more notably power gamer oriented. It didn't quite convey as strongly the claustrophobic sense of 'one false step and you're doomed' that DT did.
Durlag's Tower was a mean, ominously alluring yet rewarding beast of dungeon design. We definitely need more of its kind in our dungeon crawling games.

I also rather liked the Werewolf island plot in TotSC and remember when playing Dragon Age getting that itching feeling of familiarity during the werewolf section…"Now where did I encounter this sensation before…?"

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March 25th, 2011, 13:54
Originally Posted by blatantninja View Post
1) I really don't like expansion packs that occur in the middle of the game. I like ones that pick up the story and go on from there
Interesting, I actually enjoy the attempts I've seen at enhancing a game with an add-on. Then again, I can only think of two expansions that did this - Night of the Raven and Tales of the Sword Coast. I like both of them a lot, but I mainly enjoy TotSC because of the Werewolf plot and the increased experience cap.

Originally Posted by blatantninja View Post
2) While I thought the tower/dungeon was well done from a construction stand point, I had the exact opposite reaction as Drithius. Since the story had nothing to do with the main story of the game, I didn't get engaged with it.
I agree, a dungeon in itself means nothing to me. I dislike both Durlag's Tower and Watcher's Keep because they're both completely seperated from the game itself.

Originally Posted by blatantninja View Post
3) That demon you find in the basement in the village of Ulgoth's Beard was basically impossible to kill. I hate that. I don't want the big enemies to be easyl, but when you have to reload 20 times to find that one tiny weakness, then another 20 to damage it enough that way to kill it, I find it rather annoying.
By far the most difficult fight in the game, yes. It's the only fight in any Baldur's Gate game where I actually use a lot of buffing potions instead of just healing potions. If I recall correctly, all characters that fight the demon need to drink a particular potion that prevents the gaze attack of the demon, or they will most likely die. I think it's called Potion of Mirrored Eyes or some such thing.

Originally Posted by Pessimeister View Post
I also rather liked the Werewolf island plot in TotSC and remember when playing Dragon Age getting that itching feeling of familiarity during the werewolf section…"Now where did I encounter this sensation before…?"
I agree, I really enjoy the Werewolf island part.
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March 25th, 2011, 14:20
Originally Posted by Maylander View Post
If I recall correctly, all characters that fight the demon need to drink a particular potion that prevents the gaze attack of the demon, or they will most likely die. I think it's called Potion of Mirrored Eyes or some such thing.
I usually used arrows of dispelling to get rid of the gaze effect .

I really like Durlagīs Tower, but as with the rest of TotSC, itīs pity it isnīt more integrated into the main story.

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March 28th, 2011, 14:39
I think the reason I don't like the ones that occur in the middle of a game is that due to having been cash constrained in the past, I didn't want to spend more money than the basic game in case I didn't like it. So I'd play the game, usually through, then if I liked it go buy the expansion pack, but to enjoy the expansion, either I'd have to reload an old game and replay from that point, or just replay the whole game. For something like BG (which I think I played through 3 times back to back!), not a problem, but for a lot of other games, I wouldn't want to invest them time. I'd be willing to say put another 5-10 hours in to play the expansion, but not that 5-10 plus another 20+ for the OC.

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March 28th, 2011, 15:40
I don't think ToSC change that much the OC. There's no new companion, most original quests aren't changed, only very few area is added and accessible during the main game and if you are using ToSC stuff during the main game you had chance to end too high level for the main game. It also changed the final making it tougher but well.

Myself I didn't like that much ToSC and found BG1 mood hugely better. But i agree the werewolf part wasn't that bad.

The problem of games like BG1 that I also wish, is that they are a lot higher budget than any indie game. And I suspect that if you replace all Iso stuff by 3D you end with a budget higher than any RPG ever released. Plus if released Iso I wonder if really it could sell that well.

The first point before to even imagine that would be to see relatively big budget RPG with no voice acting and a frank commercial success.
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March 28th, 2011, 16:05
Originally Posted by Dasale View Post

The first point before to even imagine that would be to see relatively big budget RPG with no voice acting and a frank commercial success.
I rather doubt that that will happen. A AAA-RPG (game, actually) without voice acting is like AAA movie without SFX effects. I doubt that it will happen.

Which brings up a interesting question: What was the last AAA RPG without full voice acting? Neverwinter Nights 2, I believe. They had voice acting for main dialogs but not for secondary dialogs.DA:O didn't voice the player character but everything else. All the Gothics and Risen have full voice acting, as do ME1 and ME2. And IIRC The Witcher also had full voice acting.

So what was the last AAA RPG without (full) voice acting? Anyone any idea?

Edit: Drakensang didn't have full voice acting. Should be the newest more or less AAA RPG without it.
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March 28th, 2011, 17:00
I don't much care for *full* voice acting personally. Usually it's just a basket full of uninspired lines being read anyway - little to truly draw you in. There are exceptions of course, such as allister and morrigan banter in DA1.

Give me a AAA lead actor (such as David Warner) in the role of the main antagonist instead of watered down lines and actors spread thin over the rest of the game.

Additionally, voice acting is only as strong as the writing behind it; every time I hear the end to Fallout 3, I simply cringe. War, War never changes… because war, war never changes. Absolute embarrassing waste of Ron Perlman.
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March 28th, 2011, 17:19
The problem isn't really the taste about people in this forum, it's about selling a game with no voice acting because it obviously involving a more static game design.

But I should have included no cinematic but very few and at least none for any dialog. And one more time it's just about giving more design freedom to a game and still be able sell well a game.

Without those two requirements I don't see a modern BG1 being ever possible and I mean a game using Iso.

I don't think there's enough fans around and it would be on zero base so in fact impossible. But I wish the codex kids and their cousins would start something like happened with the Lord of the Ring movies trilogy instead of some vain immature posts.
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March 28th, 2011, 17:36
Oh I think there is a big enough consumer base for a BG-style RPG. There is just no publisher out there who wants to try and no developer who can make an convincing enough argument in favor of such a game.
And nobody can argue that a complex (or at least more complex than norm) game can't sell well today. Because if that would be the case we would have neither a new Civilization every few years nor Europa Universalis or Armed Assault.

And then there is something else: In the RPG genre people (Developers/fans maybe even publishers) always aim to high. A new game has to be the new Baldurs Gate, Dragon Age, Oblivion or whatever. Both in playtime and writing and so on. There is just no middle ground. Why not make a 15h RPG and sell it for 20€? There are more than enough strategy games for 10€ (new, not on sale) but no RPGs.
Where is the RPG equivalent of Flotilla or Greed Corp or AI Wars? Yes, there is Torchwood and Death Spank but those are action RPGs not real ones. So where are they?
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March 28th, 2011, 19:04
Well you think there's enough players, but I don't see where are the clues. A large part of those players will also explain you that graphics aren't important, but no Torchwood and Death Spank aren't at all the good example. And it's even a very bad clue against a BG1 nowadays that you quote them. The closer examples are Avernum or Eschalon.

If I remember well Avernum series sell at best 100k which is enough to make people making it live well not more. Sure it's not same level than BG1 but there's ton of possibilities to screw up a BG3 and between words and imagined masses of players I don't see the clear numbers. Eschalon series was at 50k only I think and was hoping 75k to have the money back, not sure what they reach finally but that's not impressive sells levels.

The problem is there is 10 years since BG2 and since then no clue that a quite close game would get such a huge success nowadays. In fact PC players seem disbanding and it's a bit fast to say they are less because of the big editors.

In no way a budget of Europa Universalis can be comparable to a RPG like BG1. And the same for Civilization series. The first didn't sell well enough to justify any BG1, and the second is using quite updated graphics that would explode a BG1 budget if realized at scale of BG1. But again they aren't at all the good example.
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March 28th, 2011, 20:12
They are good enough examples: They are complex games with a lot of numbers and sell good enough. And honestly even the Civ5 graphic is nothing to brag about.

And I'm not comparing Torchwood or Death Spank with BG. I'm just saying that those are the only budget RPGs with any kind of advertisement and PR outside the usual RPG circles like RPGWatch or the Codex. And compare that with indi strategy games or shooters or even platformers (Trine, anyone?).

RPG developers come in exactly two variations: Small, indi studios like Spiderweb Software or AAA studios with publisher and/or money like Bethesda, Obsidian or Bioware. There are simply no medium sized developers who produces RPGs. And that is something I don't understand. Not every RPG has to have 100 or even 50 hours of contend. I'd be more than happy to buy a 10h or 20h RPG. And not every RPG has to have 10 classes or 100 skills. 2 classes and 15 skills would be more than enough if the game is designed well. And that is the point I'm trying to make.

Edit: And a small question: How expensive was it to make Baldurs Gate? Are there any hard numbers out there?
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