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RPGWatch Forums » Comments » News Comments » No Mutants Allowed - A History of Fallout Fandom Part 2

Default No Mutants Allowed - A History of Fallout Fandom Part 2

February 5th, 2007, 01:34
NMA has posted Part 2 of their article on the History of Fallout Fandom. Here's a brief snip:
The distinction of whether Fallout fans have the right to feel bitter, or whether that bitterness is more honestly understood as representing their right to care, has been one of the most contested questions surrounding the fallout community. At heart is the right to an individual to have an opinion on something he cares about. This value is so essential a part of our culture that one may not even consider it a question, but for the way the gaming industry has evolved.

The gaming industry believes it is in a position to dictate terms to the community by being the only provider of the resource the community desires. Because it is in a seller-buyer relationship it seeks to maximize profits and must develop a PR campaign with the community. However, its power as seller means the industry believes it can determine the scope of that relationship because of its ability as seller to withhold that which the community (the buyer) desires.

The message is simple. If you don't like what we make, then you're not a true fan. If you don't like our product then don't buy it. But if you don't like it then we won't listen to you. If you don't like it, blacklist.
You can read all of it here.
More information.

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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February 5th, 2007, 01:34
all passengers buckle up. Category 3 nerdstorm incoming!
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February 5th, 2007, 05:10
That was so full of hyperbole and half-truths I had a bit of trouble reading it, oh well I guess that's what editorials are for.

"The message is simple. If you don't like what we make, then you're not a true fan. If you don't like our product then don't buy it. But if you don't like it then we won't listen to you. If you don't like it, blacklist."

Where on earth did this "message" come from? Sounds like the writer just made it up, just like s/he thinks they are writing on behalf of "all" fallout fans.

"But the Fallout franchise would not have survived without the support of the fanbase. "

Utter baloney, I hate omniscient statements like this. To quote Kevin Costner: "If you build it, they will come." Interplay/Black Isle built the franchise the second they sold the first copies of fallout, but who is to say if they never even green lighted Fallout2 they couldn't produce another fallout title 50 years later when no one even remembers the original title and it could still be successful.

"The survival of a franchise depends completely on the fans."

If the team has one good season they suddenly have a million new fans. It clearly is a 2-way relationship.

Favourite RPGs of all time: Wizardry 6, Ultima 7/7.2, Fallout2, Planescape Torment, Baldurs Gate 2+TOB, Jagged Alliance 2, Ravenloft: The stone prophet, Gothic 2, Realms of Arkania:Blade of destiny and Secret of the Silver Blades.
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February 5th, 2007, 05:37
Why are they so mad at Bethesda? The game they have wanted for so long is finally being made by a company with the staff and dedication to production values second-to-none in the industry and they are spitting venom before any real information has even been leaked about the game. Would they rather have this game stay dead or have been made by BIS in its death throes?

Whom did these fans want to make Fallout 3?
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February 5th, 2007, 06:50
Yes, the more hardcore would rather it stayed dead than be made into a mainstream console FPS action RPG. In a perfect world Troika would still be around and they would be developing Fallout 3.

At this point we can only make educated guesses. Fallout 3 being mentioned in Xbox magazine does little to support claims that it will hold true to the series. In any case, Bethesda will not talk to us. They don't care what we think. If they did they'd communicate. They want to make the game their way and could care less if we like it or not.

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February 5th, 2007, 07:30
Originally Posted by bjon045
Where on earth did this "message" come from? Sounds like the writer just made it up, just like s/he thinks they are writing on behalf of "all" fallout fans.
The biggest Fallout websites are currently blacklisted, this also happened to the biggest site of the fans of Star Trek games, when they were complaining abot poor quality of Star Trek Legacy.

Oblivion With Guns is hardly a true sequel to Fallout series, however it can still become a good Post-Apocalyptic Fpp inspired by the world of Fallout, the problem is that's not spin-off but sequel so it will be considered as canonical.

And the whole talk about the changing times etc. is one big bullshit,
just look at Ubisoft they keep Heroes V true to the series, they didn't created RTS because of popularity of this genre, and that is the kind of behaviour that should be appreciated. And it was as far as I know HV is big financial success.

EDIT: I changed the quote, sorry xSamhainx
Last edited by Dagon; February 5th, 2007 at 18:06.
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February 5th, 2007, 07:59
This Oblivion with Guns worries me. If Bethsoft hear about that, they might decide it would make a wonderful advertising slogan for the game!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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February 5th, 2007, 08:44
Originally Posted by Corwin
This Oblivion with Guns worries me. If Bethsoft hear about that, they might decide it would make a wonderful advertising slogan for the game!!
very true
Still i'm quite interested in seeing how it will turn out.
The rumors aren't optimistic, but it's Fallout 3 the game for which I've been waiting since 1998! So there is somekind of excitement, even though I'm now much older, and i don't have too much time to play computer games.

The real problem is that I always hated TES games, they were always shallow and all were about fighting which is quite strange because the combat is really bad designed in this series. I just can't imagine how the creators of TES can make the proper Fallout sequel.
And making fallout in FPP is the same kind of mistake. As it would be making the next Elder Scrolls installment in isometric view, it's just not this kind of game .

BTW you should cover postapocalyptic games like Forlorn World or Afterfall
If Bethesda will do what "they do best", those may gather all PostNuclear cRPGs fans out there.
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February 5th, 2007, 08:50
@Dagon - I didnt write that quote, it was Bjon. You should watch who it is that you're attributing quotes to in your posts.

My only post in this thread so far was my dire warning of the much wailing and gnashing of teeth to come.

The article? Meh. A bunch more navel-gazing over a game, not the type of stuff that I care to read that often. Like a Gamers with Jobs column without the melodrama. I have a very hard time seriously getting worked up over things such as this, or even taking them seriously for that matter. That's just me tho.

Carry on
Last edited by xSamhainx; February 5th, 2007 at 08:58.
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February 5th, 2007, 11:49
I've added a new topic to not talk about with friends. First there's religion, then politics and now a third fallout. Lot's of heated opinions on the subject.

I thought it was an interesting read. I've been lurking over in NMA off and on for a while and I don't understand why people think NMA is so god awful. They aren't so bad, they're just adament in their point of view. In this day and age of political correctness (whatever that is) and if, god forbid, you have an actual opinion that goes against the press machine then you must be crazy or worse yet your a nerd getting worked up over nothing.

I wonder though if Beth bought the license to Sid Meyers Civilization, how many outraged fans you would see light up on PC game forums everywhere. I know it's an insane comparison but to someone who loved fallout it's the same comparison. All the Civilizations that Sid created are in essence the same and look how succesful they are. Sure the graphics and rules change but the core game is the same. Same tech trees, same build the civ from cavemen day to the modern era, same gather resources, etc…. However if someone like EA got their hands on Siddies game and transformed it into a real-time hack fest with all the flashing goodies that make so many people drool, what would happen?

All in all it is still just a game and if Beth manages to make it somewhat decent even if it is first person then I will buy it. Something akin to Vampire: Bloodlines would be perfect. Troika (Blessed be their now defunct name) managed to make a rather decent roleplaying first person experience.

That's my 2 cents worth and that's all it's worth.
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February 5th, 2007, 12:19
Originally Posted by skavenhorde View Post
I know it's an insane comparison but to someone who loved fallout it's the same comparison.
I don't think you meant to say what you just said.

Statues wouldn't be better if they could move. Model airplanes would not be better if they were the same size as airplanes.
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February 5th, 2007, 14:00
Originally Posted by Dagon View Post
And the whole talk about the changing times etc. is one big bullshit, just look at Ubisoft they keep Heroes V true to the series, they didn't created RTS because of popularity of this genre, and that is the kind of behaviour that should be appreciated. And it was as far as I know HV is big financial success.
True on that front, and on the other side of the coin you have Dark Messiah. It is really not in the same tradition yet is a blast to play (yes I know I scored it 5/10, that doesn't mean I can't find it totally frickin' fun!) …

— Mike
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February 5th, 2007, 14:13
I agree with most of what skavenhorde said, I would like to add something though.

I've been reading up on all post-apocalyptic news on NMA since 2002 or something like that. I remember how crazy they were when Van Buren was being developed. Every single screenshot or newsfeed was posted on the website. They really hoped a FO3 would come out. They didn't care if it had about the same gfx as FO/2 as long as it remained true to the Fallout game.
Now when it got cancelled, they started a petition which if I remember correctly had avbout 20000 sigs for continuing FO3. When Iplay filed its quarterlies and everyone saw they were going bankrupt the NMAs ripped out every shred of credibilty Iplay had. That's one thing I think went to far.

When Bethesda bought the license, I think that some NMAs were very glad FO3 might be realized, but the ones who had played TES games didn't want a FO/TES hybrid, they wanted FO (3) . Bethesda didn't do anything to help their relation with the NMA fans though.

Yes, I know Beth has some kind of a secrecy thing. They could however come on the DaC and the NMA forums and ask for suggestions talk with the forum members a little. Like the devlopers for M&B or I think Kairo used to do it for GI/II. Even if you won't answer questions about the game you can develop a dialogue. That's something Beth did badly.
The thing that the fans did badly is keep badmouthing Bethesda when they found out they wouldn't talk.

My 2 cents. (No flaming me please )
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February 5th, 2007, 14:39
Originally Posted by Burress View Post
Why are they so mad at Bethesda? The game they have wanted for so long is finally being made by a company with the staff and dedication to production values second-to-none in the industry…
Well, I don't think anyone doubts that Fallout 3 will be the prettiest and the shiniest game of the series. It's gameplay and setting that people worry about,

Oblivion didn't impress anyone with the depth of its gameplay. The fact that Bethesda had completely butchered the lore and the setting was noted by many fans as well. So, why should anyone expect Fallout 3 to receive a different treatment?

… and they are spitting venom before any real information has even been leaked about the game.
Actually, quite a lot is known about the game.

Would they rather have this game stay dead or have been made by BIS in its death throes?
Actually #2, BIS died BECAUSE Baldur's Gate 3 and Fallout 3 were canceled.

Whom did these fans want to make Fallout 3?
Anyone who has skills, willingness, and dedication to make a third game in the series, not an action spin-off.
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February 5th, 2007, 14:56
I'm a huge Fallout fan and I disagree with about 90% of what they say. Of course by their standards that makes me not a Fallout fan I guess. Who made them God that they can speak for all Fallout fans?

As for what "they" (the disgruntled Fallout fans) want it is Fallout 2++; Fallout 2 with better graphics (maybe), the EXACT same game system, and a slightly new story that doesn't change a hair of what went before. And THAT's why they hate Fallout: Tactics so much. "Oh my God! Deathclaws had FUR! It's the END OF THE UNIVERSE!!!" Well, that and it wasn't an RPG.

They are really overly stuck on the whole game system thing which I think is too bad. Fallout was memorable for the setting, feel, characters, and story. The actual game system is OK but not that great. SPECIAL was slapped together at the last moment and it shows.

—edit—

Wow. I used to post on NMA and went back to check it out. I posted something that apparently ran against the party line and was promptly flamed as an "idiot", "f*cktard", and etc. No wonder that Bethesda ignores them.
Last edited by BillSeurer; February 5th, 2007 at 15:32.
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February 5th, 2007, 14:58
Some of the issues that may arise in th future and were questioned in this article are very clear in this post from Victor1st, from the Star Trek community.


The discussion in the TeS forum has been of some interest too, as the attempt from David Gaider from Bioware to counter the thesis expressed in the articles, and the discussion that has started since.
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February 5th, 2007, 15:16
Well,

While I don't like Bethesda creating Fallout 3 (imo they will screw it up badly), I believe that the second part of this article must be one of the biggest whines I've ever read. Especially the last part of the quoted passage (by the op) gives me headaches since it makes even less sense than most stuff that I'm usually writing. Anyway, that being my personal opinion, I still believe that every community has the right to rant about whatever it wants. Bethesda won't be able to change that as the community won't most likely be able to change Bethesda's way of creating Fallout 3. Rants are always a good way to remind companies that customer-relationship is important. If there is no buyer, there is no game. In the end however it is up to Bethesda if they rather want to have it their way and create a Fallout 3 that the hardcore fans might not buy or not.
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February 5th, 2007, 15:18
That Star Trek guy has a super inflated ego. Basically, "I slapped down Activision and I can slap down Bethesda."
Last edited by BillSeurer; February 5th, 2007 at 15:32.
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February 5th, 2007, 15:44
Originally Posted by BillSeurer View Post
As for what "they" (the disgruntled Fallout fans) want it is Fallout 2++; Fallout 2 with better graphics (maybe), the EXACT same game system, and a slightly new story that doesn't change a hair of what went before. And THAT's why they hate Fallout: Tactics so much. "Oh my God! Deathclaws had FUR! It's the END OF THE UNIVERSE!!!" Well, that and it wasn't an RPG.
Wow, it was quite a magic trick to pull all this stuff out of your ass. Let's take a look:

"it is Fallout 2++; Fallout 2 with better graphics (maybe)"
What is this statement based on?

"the EXACT same game system"
And that's wrong because?

"a slightly new story that doesn't change a hair of what went before"
Care to back it up? Show me a few links stating "Fallout 1 was about finding the waterchip and dealing with the mutants, so Fallout 3 MUST be about finding the last light bulb AND dealing with the mutants AGAIN!!!"

If you meant that we expect the setting to be consistent, yes, we do and I don't see anything wrong with that. That's why settings are valuable and that's what Bethesda paid 1.1 mil for - for a very specific and detailed setting.

Anyway, enough about me. What do YOU want? What would YOU like to see in Fallout 3 to be satisfied as a fan of the series?
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February 5th, 2007, 15:51
Originally Posted by VDweller View Post
Actually, quite a lot is known about the game.
Here is what I know for sure about the game: Bethesda has said they would stay true to the humor of the fallout series, there would be fewer and more detailed npcs than in an Elder Scrolls game, the special system would be used, and the lead developer has been announced. I don't call that a lot, but do you know more? I know the things haven't been released are screenshots, the perspective and mode of the game, or anything about the content.
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