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Default BioWare Investigating HUD Changes for Mass Effect 3

March 31st, 2011, 09:00
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
You don't seem to get that the game is a failure to YOU, not in principle. Your opinion is not fact to anyone other than yourself.
All you have done so far is painting logical inferement and facts as opinion.

Sucess/failure is not an opinion, it is a fact drawn from the comparison of a state versus an expected state (the objectives)

It is no opinion. If you project to do 100 push-ups, anything under is failure, everything over or equal is success. No opinion in that. Now, if you manage to do 91 push ups only, you might enjoy the trip more than if you manage to make 129 push ups. Never written that the game was not enjoyable (which would be an opinion) I wrote the game was a failure. You might enjoy failures. That is your issue, not mine.

Instead of claiming that I wrote of opinion, write something about that and take the argumentation one step after another.
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March 31st, 2011, 09:55
ChienAboyeur: Everything you have stated so far is an opinion, and you really need to accept that. I technically share a somewhat similar opinion to you in that I don't think that ME2's story came together very well. For me, it sort of fell apart along the way thanks to plot-holes, and the main storyline generally felt underdeveloped. But that's just my opinion; it hardly makes what I think of ME2 a fact, and you need to drop the "I speak the unquestionable truth!" attitude, as it won't win you any arguments. That is a fact
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March 31st, 2011, 10:06
Everything I stated so far is an opinion?

So what I wrote about success/failure is an opinion? Since when?

That ME 2 was supposed to deliver a suicide mission experience a la dirty dozen is an opinion? Since when?

And much more importantly, how?
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March 31st, 2011, 10:26
Sucess/failure is not an opinion, it is a fact drawn from the comparison of a state versus an expected state (the objectives)

It is no opinion. If you project to do 100 push-ups, anything under is failure, everything over or equal is success. No opinion in that. Now, if you manage to do 91 push ups only, you might enjoy the trip more than if you manage to make 129 push ups. Never written that the game was not enjoyable (which would be an opinion) I wrote the game was a failure. You might enjoy failures. That is your issue, not mine.

Instead of claiming that I wrote of opinion, write something about that and take the argumentation one step after another.
What you don't seem to grasp, is that if indeed Mass Effect 2 was "supposed to deliver" the experience you claim - there are no objective criteria of success to compare against.

YOU might not think it succeeded in doing what YOU think it should, according to YOUR vision of the Dirty Dozen experience.

However, we all have different ideas about what such an experience should include.
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March 31st, 2011, 10:30
Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
That ME 2 was supposed to deliver a suicide mission experience a la dirty dozen is an opinion? Since when?

And much more importantly, how?
Creating a "suicide mission" was only a small part of the main story, and I think that you are taking that concept a bit too literally. I don't think that the intention was ever to create a literal "suicide mission" scenario; it was more of a metaphor to describe a very dangerous and important mission that could only be completed by an elite team. Do you really think that there would be a literal suicide mission in part 2 of a trilogy? The term "suicide mission" was clearly a deliberate exaggeration that was used to show how important the mission was, and how dangerous it was going to be to complete it. This has been used many times before: An elite team being sent on a mission that was declared a "suicide mission" to get the point across that the team being sent on the mission were facing stiff odds. This term is almost never used literally in stories to mean "we're sending you on a mission where everyone is going to die no matter what. Good luck!" So this is not a "failure" to me; it's not meant to be a literal suicide mission.

If I was to point to anything that ME2 "failed" at (in my opinion ) it was in putting way too much story exposition on a single, one-hour mission with nothing of importance on the way to the finale. The whole story was pretty much "We're sending you on a dangerous mission, and you're going to need to recruit an elite team (for 20-30 hours of the game). Oh and by the way, every team member we selected for you is super gritty, grumpy, whiny, and they have family issues that you need to solve for them - apparently they can't figure these things out in their own spare time, so it's up to you to get your crew's personal lives in order. If they still have daddy issues when the time for the mission comes, there's no way they're going to be focused on the task at hand!" This was extremely disappointing to me; a 30 hour build-up full of irrelevant side-quests that never really led to anything that felt "epic" - just a one-hour fight against a giant Terminator.
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March 31st, 2011, 11:07
The emphasis was not mine on the suicide mission but came from the way Bioware promoted their game . They were the ones who put the emphasis on the suicide mission side. The reference to the movie 'Dirty dozen' is not mine, once again, it is Bioware's reference. It is not an opinion but a simple report of the promotion made about ME 2 by the studio.

As the developpers set the objectives for the game they designed and developped, one can effectively assess whether or not their game is a success or a failure. It is a failure.

Facts, no opinion.

Diminishing the importance of the suicide mission side is an opinion, not fact.

What you don't seem to grasp, is that if indeed Mass Effect 2 was "supposed to deliver" the experience you claim - there are no objective criteria of success to compare against.

YOU might not think it succeeded in doing what YOU think it should, according to YOUR vision of the Dirty Dozen experience.
What does it mean? Please explain.
ME 2 is supposed to deliver a dirty dozen suicide mission like and it does not constitute an objective criteria to assess success/failure in delivering the experience.

My vision of the dirty dozen experience? Your vision of the movie differs in the elements I underlined? I want to know how.
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March 31st, 2011, 11:16
Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
The emphasis was not mine on the suicide mission but came from the way Bioware promoted their game . They were the ones who put the emphasis on the suicide mission side. The reference to the movie 'Dirty dozen' is not mine, once again, it is Bioware's reference. It is not an opinion but a simple report of the promotion made about ME 2 by the studio.

As the developpers set the objectives for the game they designed and developped, one can effectively assess whether or not their game is a success or a failure. It is a failure.

Facts, no opinion.

Diminishing the importance of the suicide mission side is an opinion, not fact.
By what objective criteria have you measured the success of the game in terms of that claimed goal?

Do you honestly believe that because Bioware mentioned they wanted the game to feel like a certain movie in a certain way, you have the ability to ultimately decide whether the game as a whole is a success - as a fact - based on your interpretation of what you read about the goal in the media?

You've got to be kidding, right?

No one can be that conceited.

What does it mean? Please explain.
ME 2 is supposed to deliver a dirty dozen suicide mission like and it does not constitute an objective criteria to assess success/failure in delivering the experience.
No no, you CLAIM it's supposed to deliver this as a means of achieving success. The reality is probably that Bioware wanted it to be part of the experience, but I very much doubt they put the success of the game as a whole on that particular sensation.

I assume you base this on something you read in the media? I mean, you haven't actually spoken to Bioware developers about this, have you?

In any case - let's see proof of this claim - before we even consider this as a requisite for success.

My vision of the dirty dozen experience? Your vision of the movie differs in the elements I underlined? I want to know how.
I haven't bothered to consider my vision of the Dirty Dozen. I think it's a pretty crappy movie - and I don't think my personal idea of the movie is relevant.

Obviously, we all have our own experience with any given movie - and in fact, it's so obvious that establishing it would be a waste of time - as far as I'm concerned.
Last edited by DArtagnan; March 31st, 2011 at 11:27.
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March 31st, 2011, 11:24
Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
What does it mean? Please explain.
ME 2 is supposed to deliver a dirty dozen suicide mission like and it does not constitute an objective criteria to assess success/failure in delivering the experience.

My vision of the dirty dozen experience? Your vision of the movie differs in the elements I underlined? I want to know how.
Have you ever considered that Bioware only meant that they were inspired by the Dirty Dozen experience, and were not trying to replicate it? Why on Earth would someone want to blatantly rip off someone else's story? Duplicating another story down to every detail or blatantly copying another story's idea would be incredibly dumb and amateurish, and to claim that someone "failed" because they didn't rip off another story is absurd and illogical. Clearly, Bioware was only inspired by Dirty Dozen; they did not want to replicate it, and rightly so.
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March 31st, 2011, 11:24
Already stated: the number of casualties people reported after their first run of the game. Please read the thread before commenting.

My interpretation of what I read about the goal in the media? What does it mean?

What kind of abilities do you need to determine if the game was a success/failure in providing a dirty dozen experience?
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March 31st, 2011, 11:29
Originally Posted by Nerevarine View Post
Have you ever considered that Bioware only meant that they were inspired by the Dirty Dozen experience, and were not trying to replicate it? Why on Earth would someone want to blatantly rip off someone else's story? Duplicating another story down to every detail or blatantly copying another story's idea would be incredibly dumb and amateurish, and to claim that someone "failed" because they didn't rip off another story is absurd and illogical. Clearly, Bioware was only inspired by Dirty Dozen; they did not want to replicate it, and rightly so.
Inspired how? Movies on building up a team to perform a mission are numerous. Movies on building up a team out of fringe elements of society are also numerous.
Dirty dozen is special in the way it features an extremelly lethal mission, applying to this mission is really suicide as the survival rate is extremelly low.

Bioware was free to choose another movie as a reference and not to stress on the suicide mission aspect.
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March 31st, 2011, 11:29
Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
Already stated: the number of casualties people reported after their first run of the game. Please read the thread before commenting.

My interpretation of what I read about the goal in the media? What does it mean?
That's what I'm asking you. You understand the words - right?

What kind of abilities do you need to determine if the game was a success/failure in providing a dirty dozen experience?
I'd have to rewatch the movie to tell you, and I don't intend to.

It's not really relevant to my point, either.

I'm saying we all have different ideas of what's important to recreate something from a movie.

If you want to contest this, go ahead - but I don't want to waste time arguing about whether the sky is blue or not.
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March 31st, 2011, 11:33
Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
Inspired how? Movies on building up a team to perform a mission are numerous. Movies on building up a team out of fringe elements of society are also numerous.
Dirty dozen is special in the way it features an extremelly lethal mission, applying to this mission is really suicide as the survival rate is extremelly low.

Bioware was free to choose another movie as a reference and not to stress on the suicide mission aspect.
*POTENTIAL MINOR SPOILER*
You do realize that if you play the game a certain way, every single team member can die, right? Including Shepard! So your point that ME2 failed because it didn't give a "suicide mission" feel - and your argument was extremely shaky to begin with - has absolutely no validity.
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March 31st, 2011, 11:44
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post

No no, you CLAIM it's supposed to deliver this as a means of achieving success. The reality is probably that Bioware wanted it to be part of the experience, but I very much doubt they put the success of the game as a whole on that particular sensation.

I assume you base this on something you read in the media? I mean, you haven't actually spoken to Bioware developers about this, have you?

In any case - let's see proof of this claim - before we even consider this as a requisite for success.
Achieving success in what way? What does it mean?

The game is supposed to deliver a suicide mission experience.
The game delivers (success) or does not deliver (failure) a suicide mission experience.

Your casting other objectives to the game in order to assess whether the game can be a success/failure in other department is your opinion.

I only refered to the objective set by the game developpers in terms of game experience to be provided to the player. Now, ME2 might have sold better than the predicted sales by Bioware commercial department, making it a success in that regard or a failure if it sold less.


I haven't bothered to consider my vision of the Dirty Dozen. I think it's a pretty crappy movie - and I don't think my personal idea of the movie is relevant.

Obviously, we all have our own experience with any given movie - and in fact, it's so obvious that establishing it would be a waste of time - as far as I'm concerned.
Where did I speak about the quality of the movie? I did not give my opinion of the movie. I gave elements that characterized the movie. It is different.
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March 31st, 2011, 11:49
Originally Posted by Nerevarine View Post
*POTENTIAL MINOR SPOILER*
You do realize that if you play the game a certain way, every single team member can die, right? Including Shepard! So your point that ME2 failed because it didn't give a "suicide mission" feel - and your argument was extremely shaky to begin with - has absolutely no validity.
Of course I do. But this ending requires work, a lot of work. It is not the natural ending emerging from normal play.
Many games can end badly if you work at screwing them.
Do you know that you can die in many games and never finish the game?

Huge different to providing a suicide mission experience.
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March 31st, 2011, 12:15
Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
Of course I do. But this ending requires work, a lot of work. It is not the natural ending emerging from normal play.
Many games can end badly if you work at screwing them.
Do you know that you can die in many games and never finish the game?

Huge different to providing a suicide mission experience.
Mass Effect as a series is designed as an RPG for the Halo crowd. You would be amazed at how many of them play the game is such a way that killing off their entire party and even Shepard is entirely possible.
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March 31st, 2011, 12:27
I collected data on various forums to see how many casualties players reported after their first walkthrough. The few times I read on people losing their entire squad were the result of an engineering effort to achieve the said result (they wanted to see the ending cut scene for example)
The vast majority reported up to 3 casualties after first run.
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March 31st, 2011, 12:49
Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
Achieving success in what way? What does it mean?

The game is supposed to deliver a suicide mission experience.
The game delivers (success) or does not deliver (failure) a suicide mission experience.
Where is your proof of this? Please provide a link where Bioware says their game and its success depends on this experience.

Your casting other objectives to the game in order to assess whether the game can be a success/failure in other department is your opinion.
Oh, so that's my opinion - and your opinion about the suicide experience is a fact?

How does that work?

I only refered to the objective set by the game developpers in terms of game experience to be provided to the player. Now, ME2 might have sold better than the predicted sales by Bioware commercial department, making it a success in that regard or a failure if it sold less.
Yes, in your opinion that was needed for success. Your opinion remains just that.

Where did I speak about the quality of the movie? I did not give my opinion of the movie. I gave elements that characterized the movie. It is different.
It is not different, no.
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March 31st, 2011, 14:32
Where is your proof of this? Please provide a link where Bioware says their game and its success depends on this experience.
A success at what?

Oh, so that's my opinion - and your opinion about the suicide experience is a fact?

How does that work?
Quite simply. People set objectives. If they meet the objectives, it is a success. if they do not meet the objectives, it is a failure.

I reported the fact the devs intended ME2 to deliver a dirty dozen like suicide mission experience. The game does not meet the objectives. It fails.

Now, you cast yourself other objectives than the devs' and assess success or failure. At this point, it is opinion because of the change of objectives.

Yes, in your opinion that was needed for success. Your opinion remains just that.
The completion of objectives is not an opinion. Just play a video game to get a taste of it.

It is not different, no.
Of course it is different. Stating that a pen is blue is different from stating one likes/dislike the pen because it is blue. One is a factual report, this other is a matter of taste, an opinion.
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March 31st, 2011, 14:42
Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
A success at what?
Any kind of success at all.

Your link?

You completely fail to substantiate your claim about what Bioware wanted for the game, for it to succeed.

Quite simply. People set objectives. If they meet the objectives, it is a success. if they do not meet the objectives, it is a failure.
First of all, you still haven't even established that it's an objective in terms of success. There's a difference between wanting something from your own game, and having it be a requisite for success.

Even if Bioware needed it as a requisite, it would merely be their OWN opinion about the success of the game. Other people might have different opinions.

Secondly, people DO set objective(s) - as in a plural sense. Even if there was a way to determine, objectively, that Mass Effect 2 failed as a "Dirty Dozen" experience - which there isn't - it would still be a single objective among many others.

So, talking about a single objective that wasn't reached, in your personal opinion, as the main criteria of success is pretty ridiculous.

I reported the fact the devs intended ME2 to deliver a dirty dozen like suicide mission experience. The game does not meet the objectives. It fails.
Seemingly, others think it DOES provide such an experience. You keep pretending you can possibly convince us without even substantiating your claim that Bioware wanted this for the game in the specific way you suggest.

Even if it fails at it, it's only a single objective.

Now, you cast yourself other objectives than the devs' and assess success or failure. At this point, it is opinion because of the change of objectives.
I cast nothing at all.

But I don't claim to know for a fact what the developers wanted from the game, and I don't let my own opinion about whether the game is a success or not - rule over what others might think.

The completion of objectives is not an opinion. Just play a video game to get a taste of it.
It is indeed an opinion whether or not Mass Effect 2 provides the experience you claim it needs to succeed. Your opinion is that it fails, and others here have said that it succeeds.

Of course it is different. Stating that a pen is blue is different from stating one likes/dislike the pen because it is blue. One is a factual report, this other is a matter of taste, an opinion.
My opinion of the movie and my opinion of what characterises the movie is, indeed, exactly the same in terms of how we all differ, and how it's a subjective disposition.

You seem to think that you can, somehow, establish these things in an objective way.

Unfortunately, it's not enough to keep repeating something as a fact, if you utterly fail to prove it. You might be able to convince yourself of something like that, but I promise you that you'll fail again and again, trying to pass off your opinion as some kind of objective fact.
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March 31st, 2011, 16:42
Unfortunately, it's not enough to keep repeating something as a fact, if you utterly fail to prove it. You might be able to convince yourself of something like that, but I promise you that you'll fail again and again, trying to pass off your opinion as some kind of objective fact.
I passed down facts. All you did so far is rejecting that the devs set up an objective and the possibility of assessing whether or not the objective was met (success) or not (failure)
You refered to any kind of success which is what I underlined earlier by defining other objectives and assess success/failure.

As already stating, ME 2 could be a good seller (then a commercial success) without delivering a suicide mission.

My opinion of the movie and my opinion of what characterises the movie is, indeed, exactly the same in terms of how we all differ, and how it's a subjective disposition.
Sophistry. You gave no element that could characterize Dirty dozen. You gave your opinion on the quality of the movie.
Following your sophistry, the devs' attempt to extract a game play direction from the movie Dirty Dozen is a pipe dream as in the end, it is all a matter of subjectivity as people can not characterize the movie other than through their subjectivity. There are no dominant features, no key elements that could make the movie distinct from another as it is all a matter of opinion.

Dirty Dozen is characterized by a high lethality rate mission, earning it the name of suicide mission.

First of all, you still haven't even established that it's an objective in terms of success. There's a difference between wanting something from your own game, and having it be a requisite for success.

Even if Bioware needed it as a requisite, it would merely be their OWN opinion about the success of the game. Other people might have different opinions.

Secondly, people DO set objective(s) - as in a plural sense. Even if there was a way to determine, objectively, that Mass Effect 2 failed as a "Dirty Dozen" experience - which there isn't - it would still be a single objective among many others.

So, talking about a single objective that wasn't reached, in your personal opinion, as the main criteria of success is pretty ridiculous.
Success/failure is not a matter of opinion.

So now if Bioware set up the objective of delivering a suicide mission, assessing whether or not Bioware manage to meet their objective would only be the reflection of Bioware's opinion on what Bioware thinks the game to be a success. Convoluted. In all cases, it does not know the fact whether or not Bioware succeeding in delivering on their effort or not.

On the topic, I have no prerequisite for the game other than what Bioware set up for the game: the main attraction in the game is to play a dirty dozen suicide mission. It is all about to know whether or not the game delivers.

Seemingly, others think it DOES provide such an experience. You keep pretending you can possibly convince us without even substantiating your claim that Bioware wanted this for the game in the specific way you suggest.
How? I stated how ME 2 fails to deliver a dirty dozen like suicide mission.
So please tell how ME2 succeeds in delivering a dirty dozen like suicide mission.
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