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Default The Witcher 2 - 12 Splendid Things

May 1st, 2011, 00:14
Originally Posted by aries100 View Post
The only other game I've seen do this - is Dragon Age: Origins.
Noooooooooooooooooo.

Fallout 1, 2 and New Vegas. Gothics 1, 2 and 3. Risen. Arcanum. Vampire: The Masquerade: Bloodlines, Deus Ex and many, many more. Dragon Age was actually sort of disappointing in that regard, it mostly changed very little.
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May 1st, 2011, 00:21
Originally Posted by DoctorNarrative View Post
Noooooooooooooooooo.

Fallout 1, 2 and New Vegas. Gothics 1, 2 and 3. Risen. Arcanum. Vampire: The Masquerade: Bloodlines, Deus Ex and many, many more. Dragon Age was actually sort of disappointing in that regard, it mostly changed very little.
And yet compared to DA2 it seems like you have all the choices in the world.

I think your perspective depends on what other games you had played. Prior to playing Witcher and Dragon Age I had played mostly games with no choice at all, like Bethesda stuff. The one time they gave you a significant choice to make they came up with lore that some kind of weird quantum event happened where all possible outcomes of the choice happened all at once. Then they never gave you any choice again because they didn't want to deal with the headache of having to follow up on it.
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May 1st, 2011, 00:25
Originally Posted by DoctorNarrative View Post
Noooooooooooooooooo.
Indeed .
Also, Alpha Protocol and Mask of the Betrayer bear mention as well.

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May 1st, 2011, 10:03
When I was thinking of Dragon Age: Origins, I was thinking of the choices you could make in The Circle Quest, The quest with Elves & The Werewolves. You had 1-3 (or more) choices in each quest you could do; depending on what you did, you did get a different ending slide. However, I agree that not much changed during the game. In Witcher 1 the quests and choices you made during these quests changed during the course ouf the game. I also agree that Fallout and Fallout 2 did this as well.

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May 1st, 2011, 10:45
Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines is a very good example of your choices making big differences to your play through. I only played through the game (all of the way) once and sometimes I read about things you do and areas you go through and know that I never did that because of the choices I made.
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May 1st, 2011, 11:42
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
What track record is that? Care to give some examples?

While you're at it, how about making some more blatantly false statements?
I thought this was well known, but GOG hasn't lived up to any of these huge announcements they frequently make. Just look at their site right now and tell me that any of the newly released games are adequate for the kind of hype and speculation they created with their deliberate ambiguous questions (besides SC2 of course, which was already legally available for free without any kind of technical expertise needed for installation). Not to mention the fact that Atari was already known as a signed publisher on GOG, making the whole situation look redundant.

There was also a huge hype surrounding the release of information about a console version of TW1. Just think about that for a moment. And of course, the console version got canceled later. If that isn't not living up to hype and promises I don't know what is.

I also remember that the importance of the potion and monster lore part was severely overstated in TW1 pre-release material. Yes, potions were slightly more important than they usually are in RPGs but nowhere near to what you would have expected from reading the books and the pre-release material.

Regarding the combat mechanic. I can see how people like it, if they rarely play games outside the RPG genre and don't know that this mechanic is an outdated stripped down version first introduced to the mainstream by dance/music type games. That doesn't change the fact, however, that TW1 is still a game and at some point has to be judged as such. And for a game the combat mechanic is outdated, out of place, immersion-breaking and simply not fun. If a movie used a broken, outdated camera with no stylistic reasoning behind it, you can be damn well sure critics would treat it as a fact that the camera was bad.

It is also interesting to see that no one who has defended the combat so far has stepped up to argue how Meer's assessment of the combat
[The combat mechanic] feels entirely disconnected from all the heroic chopping, stabbing and pirouetting Albino Viggo is busy doing on-screen.
is wrong. I would especially like to hear why people think the broken immersion resulting from the mentioned disconnection does not have a negative influence on the gaming experience.
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May 1st, 2011, 12:56
Tilean your post is one of the most ridiculous I have read since a long time. There are some good arguments but you totally waste them by trying cumulating many more, the problem is those other arguments are so ridiculous (potions, dance, even the console version is a poor argument), I won't even bother answer that because to throw such arguments, I can only hope we are from a different parallel dimension using a different logic.
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May 1st, 2011, 13:08
Originally Posted by DoctorNarrative View Post
Noooooooooooooooooo.

Fallout 1, 2 and New Vegas. Gothics 1, 2 and 3. Risen. Arcanum. Vampire: The Masquerade: Bloodlines, Deus Ex and many, many more. Dragon Age was actually sort of disappointing in that regard, it mostly changed very little.
In Gothic 2 there's choices that influence the main course of the game? The only one I see is one chapter change depending of the character class. But the main story was always the same apart this class element influence. I could be wrong.

I think the problem with games with real alternate path, is none (of those I played) knew highlight well to the player the real choices and the consequences. To quote them the player had to replay the whole game.

That's the huge improvement The Witcher 1 brought to choices management involving real alternate pathes. It's the first game (I know) who knew highlight important players choices and even better consequences.

This sort of trick and its value worth for any choices with a consequence, not only choices altering the main course of the game.

The second game I quoted is Avadon, it's timid and rare but well done when I quoted it. In this game it's about using the the Witcher 1 trick to highlight alternate path from past choice. The cases I quoted in Avadon are more subtly done through a companion comment.
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May 1st, 2011, 15:15
Originally Posted by Dasale View Post
Tilean your post is one of the most ridiculous I have read since a long time. There are some good arguments but you totally waste them by trying cumulating many more, the problem is those other arguments are so ridiculous (potions, dance, even the console version is a poor argument), I won't even bother answer that because to throw such arguments, I can only hope we are from a different parallel dimension using a different logic.
I'm not sure you understood my intention behind these "arguments". Or maybe you failed to discern my different and totally unrelated viewpoints in this post and are unable to judge each on its on merits. The largest part of my post is about CDP's tendency to drastically overstate (I am talking Oblivion era Bethesda here) a game's features or "overhype" something else, which of course has no bearing on the quality of the game itself. The console version is not a ridiculous example in this context; it actually hits the nail on its head. They had a friggin' countdown on their site for this thing! For a mere cross platform announcement they even failed to deliver in the end. Anyone in his right mind can see how this is inadequate marketing par excellence.

The other very small part of my post was about the combat system, which I think can be universally accepted as bad. Note that this is the only thing of my post that was explicitly about the game itself.

Since you conveniently left out what exactly it was you found "ridiculous" about my logic I am going to stop here and wait for a further elaboration.
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May 1st, 2011, 15:55
Well I wrote I won't care explain but it seems I should:
  • With dance program the sequence is fixed the player has no influence on it. Should I really need elaborate to pinpoint how compare such system to The Witcher 1 fights is close to a lie, well or a different logic system?
And you know I won't argue on any other points despite I could, because as I explained there's limits, and you put not enough care and waste your arguing with some very bad points close to dishonest points. Don't think quantity, try think more quality of arguments. And yes there's no reason to not continue spam the forum with your opinions, in no way I wanted wrote that.
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May 1st, 2011, 17:06
Originally Posted by Tilean View Post
That doesn't change the fact, however, that TW1 is still a game and at some point has to be judged as such. And for a game the combat mechanic is outdated, out of place, immersion-breaking and simply not fun. If a movie used a broken, outdated camera with no stylistic reasoning behind it, you can be damn well sure critics would treat it as a fact that the camera was bad.
Errr… and this bit about TW 1 combat is a fact as well? Must be, since you also state that: "combat system, which I think can be universally accepted as bad" it must god honest truth? But wait… Quite a few people here (me included) liked TW's combat system, so it can't be a fact? So "universal" must have another meaning I was unaware of… You are confusing me greatly…
Last edited by zahratustra; May 1st, 2011 at 17:30.
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May 1st, 2011, 17:29
Jeez, could someone please back up why TW1 combat is good.
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May 1st, 2011, 17:47
Originally Posted by Tilean View Post
Jeez, could someone please back up why TW1 combat is good.
They wont admit it. I found the combat annoying myself you had to click the mouse at the right time. Got boring and repetitive after a while. I learned to not care about the combat and came to enjoy it finally.From what I read and watched combat in part 2 might be worse.

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May 1st, 2011, 18:06
Originally Posted by couchpotato
They wont admit it. I found the combat annoying myself you had to click the mouse at the right time. Got boring and repetitive after a while. I learned to not care about the combat and came to enjoy it finally.From what I read and watched combat in part 2 might be worse.
I don't dislike the timing thing per se, since I feel the idea of rhythm influenced combat in an Action RPG is right and the first two Gothics are examples of this. The pit fights in Gothic 1 are still one of the most tense gaming experiences I have, but TW1 just pales in comparison to this. The important thing in my opinion is the presence of tactically valid changes to the sequences, not just the ability to change styles and targets which is usually a no-brainer.

I am also pretty sure it can be mathematically proven that the Gothic combat is more complex and more tactical by orders of magnitude. So I am quite baffled at this resentment of the idea that "TW1 combat can be universally accepted as bad". I have no education in game theory though, otherwise I would submit a proof.
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May 1st, 2011, 18:14
The sequence (of the combat) in Witcher 1 is also fixed; you can, of course, click on the target, but after having done so, Geralt will perform the attacks in a fixed sequence. There's a variation here, since you can jump over enemies, spin around - with the correct clicks of the mouse (cursor) on the ground.

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May 1st, 2011, 18:49
I agree TW combat was crap, but it's an opinion. There are people who genuinely like it (crazy people, yes) - and our opinion is still not fact.
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May 1st, 2011, 19:03
Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
Blah blah So you get that false moral dilemna paradigm blah blah
No grays, no nuances, no compromizes. Things are defined as polar opposites and thus easily weighted. more blah blah
No you are wrong, there are plenty grays in the Witcher, ofcause you are right if you allready have taken a side, but if you are neautral, and want to do "the right thing", then its all gray.

Eksampel do you help the knights, who protect the humans, and uphold the law, but are racist, evil and cruel against elf and dwarves, og do you help the elf against the tyrani of the humans, but who kill alot of inocent humans? That are the lesser evil?

About The Witcher 1 combat, I found it very fun. Its not just sit and click the mouse at the right time, but also use the right type of attack, the right weapon and use magic and potions.

(Sorry fore the gramma, are Danish)
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May 1st, 2011, 22:07
Originally Posted by Tilean View Post
Jeez, could someone please back up why TW1 combat is good.
I will. I will tell you why I enjoyed the combat very much.

First an example:

In the swamps i was surrounded by some drowners and drowned dead. My health was going fast. I saw a bloedzuiger in the distance. I then did a front flip over the drowners that had me surrounded and made a run for the bloedzuiger. When I go to it i swithed to the quen sign and activated it so I wouldn't take any damage and let the drowners catch up. when I was again surrounded by the drowners I switched to my aard sign stunning the bloedzuiger and knocking down many of the drowners. With the bloedzuiger stunned i did a coup de grace and killed him then a back flip to avoid the acid as when they are killed the explode into acid. I narrowly avoided the acid but it hit the drowners killing them all. Thus I live to fight another day.

I don't know about you but to me that's fun. Throw in the fact that most monsters had to be handled in different ways (example larger monster couldn't be knocked down with aard sign plants were more vulnerable to igni (fire) sign and many others. Then add the different potions that were effective in different situations and you have yourself a pretty strategic, complex and fun combat system imo.

Yes I suppose I could have just switch to group style and clicked when the sword lit up in hopes of outlasting the drowners but I'm sure I would have died.

I agree if you went around fighting monsters by just clicking when it was time then the combat would be boring. But if you were willing to improvise and get creative there was actually a rewarding combat system there.

No it not god of war combat if that's what your looking for. I think people gave up on it to quickly without exploring what possibilities the combat offered.

I know a lot of people didn't like the combat in the witcher but I enjoyed it very much for the above reasons. Hope this gives some insite in to how someone could enjoy the witcher 1 combat.
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May 1st, 2011, 22:08
Originally Posted by Phonix View Post
No you are wrong, there are plenty grays in the Witcher, ofcause you are right if you allready have taken a side, but if you are neautral, and want to do "the right thing", then its all gray.

Eksampel do you help the knights, who protect the humans, and uphold the law, but are racist, evil and cruel against elf and dwarves, og do you help the elf against the tyrani of the humans, but who kill alot of inocent humans? That are the lesser evil?
I did not write on the TW, a game I did not play. I commented on the example given in the OP.

There is no gray in it. Depending on the character's ideology, it is either black or white. It is a false moral dilemna. Once the player has determined its set of morality, the choice is a no brainer. No moral crisis.
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May 1st, 2011, 22:14
Can't agree more Phonix and sakichop. Fact that combat in TW includes switching styles and weapons as well as using combat moves, signs and potions gets reduced by critics to "point and click"…
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