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Default Hurray for police states

May 19th, 2011, 09:26
Look at the distribution of wealth/resources in America, the widespread obsession with it, and there's your answer.
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May 19th, 2011, 10:47
The distribution of wealth in Europe is going that way too though… The rich are getting richer in Europe and the poor poorer.
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May 19th, 2011, 11:11
I say it's a red herring. We should look at social wealth. Material possessions is just a cultural symbol and symbols change over time.

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May 19th, 2011, 11:53
I said wealth AND resources - which includes basic needs.

As long as there are people with a lot, and people with almost nothing - there will be serious issues.

Yes, Europe is getting worse in that way all the time.

It's the greed plague.
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May 19th, 2011, 12:36
How can we explain people with great resources and wealth who commits suicide?
Great wealth or even wealth might not the basic need. We can create systems of distribution, but it doesn't solve the question on how to best suit human needs.

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May 19th, 2011, 13:50
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
How can we explain people with great resources and wealth who commits suicide?
Great wealth or even wealth might not the basic need. We can create systems of distribution, but it doesn't solve the question on how to best suit human needs.
It's not like we can magically solve all problems in the world by distributing resources evenly, but we will come a long way towards solving many of our current problems.

Also, one of the primary reasons people with great wealth are surprisingly unhappy - is because they sacrifice so much to achieve it, and they find that it's largely a waste of life to spend it on material accumulation.

There's an emptiness to life that I don't think anything we ever do can fill - but that doesn't mean we should ignore all other issues.

So, I'm not saying we should make everyone rich - as that's pointless. Wealth as a concept should not be about material aspiration. Wealth should be about having what you need - and not wanting what you don't.
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May 19th, 2011, 14:31
You actually believe people would be happy being equal? How quaint.

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May 19th, 2011, 14:51
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
You actually believe people would be happy being equal? How quaint.
Wrong perspective. People might be unhappy for not getting at least equal treatment. Unhappy people is a potential source of conflict. A society in conflict is an unstable society.

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An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind. - Mahatma Gandhi
The world is my country. To do good is my religion. My mind is my own church. This simple creed is all we need to enjoy peace on earth. - Thomas Paine
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May 19th, 2011, 16:02
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
You actually believe people would be happy being equal? How quaint.
It's not about making people happy. It's about removing obvious causes of unhappiness.
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May 19th, 2011, 16:31
Since "equal" is undeniably subjective, "equal treatment" is a phantom. You can't quantify what it is; you can't quantify your ability to deliver it; you can't document that it's been successfully delivered. Any system that cannot cope with "society in conflict" is doomed to failure. You must accept that people will be unhappy and build your system to accomodate it.

DArt wants equal distribution of resources to achieve his utopia, but since "equal" cannot be universally defined, and wouldn't be the key to societal happiness even if it did, he's lost before he even gets started.

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May 19th, 2011, 17:39
Police states ? My, just have a look at what's currently going on within Hungary ! The draconical press-restricting laws !

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May 19th, 2011, 18:27
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Since "equal" is undeniably subjective, "equal treatment" is a phantom. You can't quantify what it is; you can't quantify your ability to deliver it; you can't document that it's been successfully delivered.

Any system that cannot cope with "society in conflict" is doomed to failure. You must accept that people will be unhappy and build your system to accomodate it.
Equal is what the force think it's to be and if you can convince someone that they are better off unhappy, all power to you.

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An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind. - Mahatma Gandhi
The world is my country. To do good is my religion. My mind is my own church. This simple creed is all we need to enjoy peace on earth. - Thomas Paine
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May 19th, 2011, 19:24
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
Equal is what the force think it's to be
I don't understand this. Clarify, please?
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
and if you can convince someone that they are better off unhappy, all power to you.
I didn't say that they're better off unhappy. I said that they will be unhappy, so the system (whatever system you're formulating) should accept and account for that fact. Any system that relies on the people being happy, or has across-the-board happiness as a stated goal, will fail.

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May 19th, 2011, 21:48
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
I don't understand this. Clarify, please?
It basically means you can't reason with a large number of people who simply follow their feelings. Their view on equality is a force regardless whether or not they are right or true.

Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
I didn't say that they're better off unhappy. I said that they will be unhappy, so the system (whatever system you're formulating) should accept and account for that fact. Any system that relies on the people being happy, or has across-the-board happiness as a stated goal, will fail.
A system that ignores unhappiness runs a great risk of becoming unstable. Whether or not you actually do so, you have to at least promise to adress the unhappiness.

Mankind must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind. - John F Kennedy
An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind. - Mahatma Gandhi
The world is my country. To do good is my religion. My mind is my own church. This simple creed is all we need to enjoy peace on earth. - Thomas Paine
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May 19th, 2011, 23:09
Politicians appealing to fix the "unhappyiness" is apart of the problem. Giving people stuff doesn't make a more stable society, it makes a less stable society (regardless of what happens to "happiness"). I feel this is what has happened to the US since WW2. We have swapped things around and around, given and given, and the US is still no where close to being a Happy, socially coherent country.

That said I'm for social security for the retired, I just think it has gone way too far in given money to folks I know could hold a job if they wanted. They dont want to work, they want a check every month from Uncle Sam to buy booze and drugs….and the funny thing is they are still pretty much unhappy! Yep, they are still unhappy. That is what gets me. I sometimes say things like "i wish I didn't have to work for food, clothing, and shelter," but after dealing with handout crowd for a few years I learned that working for those things makes me happy. So giving money/power doesn't making anyone happy, working for it atleast makes me happy

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May 20th, 2011, 01:31
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
It basically means you can't reason with a large number of people who simply follow their feelings. Their view on equality is a force regardless whether or not they are right or true.
OK, but groupthink cannot change individual happiness. You'll still have individuals unhappy about their lot in life, even if the hive mind agrees that everything is officially defined as equal. You simply can't get there from here, so any system that has such as a stated goal MUST fail.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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May 20th, 2011, 06:23
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
OK, but groupthink cannot change individual happiness. You'll still have individuals unhappy about their lot in life, even if the hive mind agrees that everything is officially defined as equal. You simply can't get there from here, so any system that has such as a stated goal MUST fail.
The amount of unhappiness in general is the factor I speak about, not individual unhappiness.

Mankind must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind. - John F Kennedy
An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind. - Mahatma Gandhi
The world is my country. To do good is my religion. My mind is my own church. This simple creed is all we need to enjoy peace on earth. - Thomas Paine
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May 20th, 2011, 06:29
Originally Posted by Lord_Brownie View Post
…They dont want to work, they want a check every month from Uncle Sam to buy booze and drugs….and the funny thing is they are still pretty much unhappy!
These people would most probably still be addicts since people with addiction usually have underlying problems. Nobody usually want to employ people with these problems anyway. Always you hear people declare all problems solved with jobs. Problem is, nobody wants to work with people who cant give a 100%. Hell, even I cannot stand having coworkers reporting sick once a week. It fucks up your workday, you have to fill in while your primary work get neglected. These problems are a huge expence for companies, and secretly they do everything to avoid these weakling hirings. Still they complain and bitch about these people being able to sit home watching tv and play video games.

Just make peace with that not all people are fit for work. The litmus test is: this is a person I'd look forward working with. Even I have lots of friends I wouldn't even dream of hiring. Doesn't make them bad or flawed human beings. It just means they simply do not function in a working environment.
Last edited by hishadow; May 20th, 2011 at 06:40.
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May 20th, 2011, 06:50
Originally Posted by Lord_Brownie View Post
They dont want to work, they want a check every month from Uncle Sam to buy booze and drugs….
This is called a thought-stopping cliché. When adressing widespread social issues, creating a cliché stereotype that is meant to represent every person involved is a common flaw in politics and one that stop any attempt to think and solve a widespread issue (compare with; "every businessman is a crook" or "every nigger is a potential thief").

Such thought-stopping cliché is actually often part of the problem since they act as a placeholder, blocking any serious attempt to adress social issues.

When you have a large quota you can always always find anecdotes that confirms a cliché. It's first when you study a large population with proper scientific tools and accept that the people you are speaking about have a large variation, that you can get closer to the truth.

Interestingly though, you describe alcoholics and drugabuse. These are strong and serious issues for a society.

Mankind must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind. - John F Kennedy
An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind. - Mahatma Gandhi
The world is my country. To do good is my religion. My mind is my own church. This simple creed is all we need to enjoy peace on earth. - Thomas Paine
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May 20th, 2011, 06:56
Originally Posted by hishadow View Post
Just make peace with that not all people are fit for work. The litmus test is: this is a person I'd look forward working with. Even I have lots of friends I wouldn't even dream of hiring. Doesn't make them bad or flawed human beings. It just means they simply do not function in a working environment.
This is what I call the worker optimization problem. In a society that seeks the best, unemployment will rise over time as better and better people are sought for. Eventually individuals who perfectly fit the wishes and dreams of employers is starting to become a minority. With less to hire those people get more and more work. However, your optimal level doesn't last forever and sooner or later these people break down. Society is now divided between unemployed and burnouts as well as an average 60 hour work per week.

Theres no way to deal with this issue but regulating and that will not happen until society breaks down so much that it is impossible to deny the problems.

Mankind must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind. - John F Kennedy
An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind. - Mahatma Gandhi
The world is my country. To do good is my religion. My mind is my own church. This simple creed is all we need to enjoy peace on earth. - Thomas Paine
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