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Default “You’ll comply when you have a gun in your face…”

June 6th, 2011, 16:57
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
Determinist yes, but also too complex for the human mind to comprehend. Which is also why the debate about it is meaningless.
Wait…what?

Attaching an incomprehensible level of complexity to a philosophical viewpoint is a cheap way of saying, "I don't understand the BS I'm trying to feed you."

Also, the way you described the function of the brain is wrong. Motor reflexes aren't the same thing as cognitive behaviors, and the different regions of the brain aren't independent of each other. The cerebrum isn't a "recent" feature; it's been around for millions of years. We possess an advanced frontal cortex, but this also isn't a new feature, or a feature exclusive to humans. fMRI scans of brain activity during coordination, planning, and execution of behaviors show extensive and widespread activation of the cerebrum, and not just to "fool ourselves into thinking it was our idea in the first place." It may be possible that I'm misunderstanding you, but from where I sit, you need more neuroscience, and less philosophy.
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June 6th, 2011, 16:57
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
So everything is determinist? Wow, I never took you for a religious diehard, JemyM.
What does determinism have to do with religion?

Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
I think you need to put the books away for a while and get back to the real world. You make it sound so nice and use lots of impressive vocabulary, but yet the stuff you're throwing out there just doesn't match up with reality in the slightest.
Like what?

Originally Posted by redman5427 View Post
I take the other side, that something is going on inside the box and we do have a choice and their is free will. Environment does shape us and all but we as human beings have choice as opposed to animals.
Human beings ARE animals.

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June 6th, 2011, 18:37
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
Determinist yes, but also too complex for the human mind to comprehend. Which is also why the debate about it is meaningless.
how do you know that?

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June 6th, 2011, 18:45
Originally Posted by Ubereil View Post
What does determinism have to do with religion?
Ever heard of "will of God" or "God has a plan"? The position that we're just acting out a divinely written script is pretty typical of most (if not all) religions and pretty much a definition of determinism. Do you not agree?

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June 6th, 2011, 19:48
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Ever heard of "will of God" or "God has a plan"? The position that we're just acting out a divinely written script is pretty typical of most (if not all) religions and pretty much a definition of determinism. Do you not agree?
in science it means everything is caused by prievious actions that happened according to scientific laws

something vaguely like that

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June 6th, 2011, 21:50
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Ever heard of "will of God" or "God has a plan"? The position that we're just acting out a divinely written script is pretty typical of most (if not all) religions and pretty much a definition of determinism. Do you not agree?
Nope. Determinism have no need to mix "God" into it's explanation.

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June 6th, 2011, 21:56
I didn't say it was mandatory the some divinity be included. I'm saying it's functionally equivalent (and far more applicable to "average morality", whatever JemyM is claiming that to be) to the more egghead definition as described by SAGO.

If you'd prefer a different term to match your textbooks, I'm perfectly fine with that. Supply the term and I'll happily substitute it into the exact same context and we can all be happy.

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June 6th, 2011, 22:17
"determinism" is sufficient, although quantum mechanics will tell you determinism doesn't exist at the atomic level.
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June 6th, 2011, 22:49
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
I didn't say it was mandatory the some divinity be included.
No, you said that being "the will of God" is the definition of determinism, which is just false.

And Determinism doesn't say anything about any "plan" or "purpouse" with what's going on, since those two things indicates that there was/is some kind of intention behind everything. Determinism doesn't discuss whether there was/is intention behind things, nor does it need there to be intention behind the order of things to explain what the order of thigns is.

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June 6th, 2011, 23:12
Pick a fancy word you like then, Ubereil, and we'll skip the pedantry. I think you know exactly what I meant, which means you're just looking to tie up the discussion with technicalities. I freely admit that I don't have a degree in psychiatry or philosophy, so I'm encouraging you to supply terms that you're happy with and then we can get back to the actual discussion.

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June 6th, 2011, 23:19
No, he's not. That's exactly what you said. Now you can say that you didn't mean that. Which would be a perfectly fine retraction. It's not pedantic to clearly describe what one meant, rather than throw insults around.

You said

The position that we're just acting out a divinely written script is pretty typical of most (if not all) religions and pretty much a definition of determinism.
WRONG
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June 6th, 2011, 23:28
Determinism is a way for people to justify acting like dicks because they say it was pre-ordained to happen. It's a lazy out.
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June 6th, 2011, 23:45
"Self-determinism" is not the opposite of "determinism".

The first refers to the concept that a PERSON's behavior is NOT pre-ordained by the universe.

In it's most general form, determinism is the concept that EVERYTHING that happens is fixed and immovable. As I said before, this is patently false from what we know about quantum mechanics. But it may apply in other aspects of the Universe.
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June 7th, 2011, 10:19
Determinism isn't religious. Also there is a big difference between the realization that everything happens for a future reason/purpose/goal and everything that happens is a sum of past events. I belong in the later field. Basically everything that happens is a result of everything that comes before it and at the time of you believing you make a choice, that choice is merely the sum of what happened up to that point.

At the time you are making a "choice" you will never pick the less beneficial alternative. You may in hintersight understand your choice to be less beneficial but that doesn't change that you really only had one choice (the one that at the time seemed most beneficial). You make that choice based on many factors, most noteably the sum of your experience up to that point as well as your bodys state which is also the sum of what you did up to that point.

This isn't fatalistic. In fact, this realization helps you to forsee or at least prepare for the future. this idea might actually be beneficial for the rest of your life. Because if you think this makes sense, you may see that accumulating more experience might make you make more beneficial choices in the future. Also, it might encourage you to find reasons for what just happened by looking at the past and make you even more prepared to forsee the future.

But remember that you reach this conclusion because you were inspired by what you were just told. Thus yet again your appearent "change of action" is simply because of this event, which in turn is the sum of everything that happened up to this point.
And if you reach the conclusion like darkling proposed; "it justify being a dick because it was pre-ordained to happen" also that was the only possible conclusion you could draw from what happened prior to this point. Either conclusion reveals something about your past and the kind of person you are.

There is a psychological term called the FAE, the Fundamental Attribution Error. The FAE lead a person to judge a situation only by the easy accessible current information, rather than looking for background information. The idea that people make "choices" in which all "choices" are equally valid to them, is a thought-stopping cliché.

Is Joe nothing more than an alcoholic? If we look at Joe right now, he might be drunken beyond belief. If we only draw our conclusions from that information, we might reach the conclusion that he is in fact, nothing more than an alcoholic. If we instead look at the following three questions;
1. Consensus; What would I be in his shoes?
2. Consistency; Given the situation, would everyone be drunk?
3. Distinctiveness; Is it usually the case that Joe is drunk?

These questions help us to reveal the reasons why Joe made the appearent "choice" he did. The information that when summed up made Joe do what he did.

Understanding the reasons behind an appearent "choice" equips us to nudge future "choices", because we understand that the "choice" is merely the sum of what we do prior to the choice. However, just stopping at the idea "it was a choice" will make us judge Joe for the current situation, without making much improvement for the future "choices" he makes.

The belief in "choice" is the belief that there's no cause. Yet it is self evident that we ourselves always act for a reason.

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June 7th, 2011, 10:59
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Pick a fancy word you like then, Ubereil, and we'll skip the pedantry. I think you know exactly what I meant, which means you're just looking to tie up the discussion with technicalities.
I don't really know what you mean, or what your point is. What you did do was to call JemyM religious because determinism has a lot in common with fate theories that are part of some religions. But, as JemyM said here:

Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
Also there is a big difference between the realization that everything happens for a future reason/purpose/goal and everything that happens is a sum of past events.
You seem to have assumed determinism is the former and based on that claimed JemyM is religious. But as I've pointed out (and so has JemyM by now) determinism is the latter so your accusation doesn't hold water.

So now that we've established that determinism doesn't speak of any plan, maybe we can drop that line of thinking?

Originally Posted by darkling View Post
Determinism is a way for people to justify acting like dicks because they say it was pre-ordained to happen. It's a lazy out.
I've never used determinism as an excuse. Determinism isn't, in itself, an excuse to act like a dick.

Objectivism, on the other hand…

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June 7th, 2011, 11:01
The bullshit force is strong in this one…
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June 7th, 2011, 11:06
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
The bullshit force is strong in this one…
In who?

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June 7th, 2011, 11:07
The thread
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June 7th, 2011, 17:28
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
Determinism isn't religious. Also there is a big difference between the realization that everything happens for a future reason/purpose/goal and everything that happens is a sum of past events. I belong in the later field. Basically everything that happens is a result of everything that comes before it and at the time of you believing you make a choice, that choice is merely the sum of what happened up to that point.

At the time you are making a "choice" you will never pick the less beneficial alternative. You may in hintersight understand your choice to be less beneficial but that doesn't change that you really only had one choice (the one that at the time seemed most beneficial). You make that choice based on many factors, most noteably the sum of your experience up to that point as well as your bodys state which is also the sum of what you did up to that point.

This isn't fatalistic. In fact, this realization helps you to forsee or at least prepare for the future. this idea might actually be beneficial for the rest of your life. Because if you think this makes sense, you may see that accumulating more experience might make you make more beneficial choices in the future. Also, it might encourage you to find reasons for what just happened by looking at the past and make you even more prepared to forsee the future.

But remember that you reach this conclusion because you were inspired by what you were just told. Thus yet again your appearent "change of action" is simply because of this event, which in turn is the sum of everything that happened up to this point.
And if you reach the conclusion like darkling proposed; "it justify being a dick because it was pre-ordained to happen" also that was the only possible conclusion you could draw from what happened prior to this point. Either conclusion reveals something about your past and the kind of person you are.

There is a psychological term called the FAE, the Fundamental Attribution Error. The FAE lead a person to judge a situation only by the easy accessible current information, rather than looking for background information. The idea that people make "choices" in which all "choices" are equally valid to them, is a thought-stopping cliché.

Is Joe nothing more than an alcoholic? If we look at Joe right now, he might be drunken beyond belief. If we only draw our conclusions from that information, we might reach the conclusion that he is in fact, nothing more than an alcoholic. If we instead look at the following three questions;
1. Consensus; What would I be in his shoes?
2. Consistency; Given the situation, would everyone be drunk?
3. Distinctiveness; Is it usually the case that Joe is drunk?

These questions help us to reveal the reasons why Joe made the appearent "choice" he did. The information that when summed up made Joe do what he did.

Understanding the reasons behind an appearent "choice" equips us to nudge future "choices", because we understand that the "choice" is merely the sum of what we do prior to the choice. However, just stopping at the idea "it was a choice" will make us judge Joe for the current situation, without making much improvement for the future "choices" he makes.

The belief in "choice" is the belief that there's no cause. Yet it is self evident that we ourselves always act for a reason.
youve never been to a nightclub, thats for sure

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June 13th, 2011, 08:56
Originally Posted by Jhari View Post
if one wishes to operate within a society, then one must conform with the prevailing morality of that grouping, no matter what the size of that group, and no matter how a superset of that group defines morality.
We must? Oh really? Even if the group/collective is insane? Many people don't conform to the collective mindset because it is immoral. Look around, see the widespread insanity and human suffering in human society. It's been that way for millennia.
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