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Default Avadon - Released on iPad

June 29th, 2011, 01:07
I think he's both spot on with the pricing and absolutely correct to charge what he likes for it given the different markets involved.

If you don't believe a game is worth what is being charged for it, then don't play it. If the PC game is worth the money then get it, if its not, then don't. The price of other versions has absolutely nothing to do with your own value for money argument - the ipad release can't suddenly make your PC version less good.
What a second. That would mean that if two houses were made exactly the same way and both sold for $250,000, and a third identical house was built a little later right next to them but sold for $100,000, that wouldn’t have an impact on the value of the first two?

If you say yes, I would like to sell you my house for what it was worth in 2007.
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June 29th, 2011, 01:07
Originally Posted by Unrestigered View Post
And just FYI before this thread I was completely indifferent about the iPad and just chalked it up to just more stupid crap all these stupid kids like nowadays. It viewed it the exact same way I view Justin Bibber—nonsense for little kids who don’t know better. But now I know it’s a really sucky laptop or a futuristic looking netbook but with a worse OS.
It is a more or less a piece of crap. Not just the iPad, the whole tablet format. I'll browse on my iPad in bed right before I go to sleep just to avoid lugging the laptop. It works OK on my home wifi. I'll use it on the train, or try to, until the crappy lossy free Wifi or crappy G3 connections make me throw in the towel and just take a nap or read. Typing? Only if I have to.

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June 29th, 2011, 02:17
I view all tablets as toys, with very limited useful practical applications.
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June 29th, 2011, 02:45
Originally Posted by Unrestigered View Post
What a second. That would mean that if two houses were made exactly the same way and both sold for $250,000, and a third identical house was built a little later right next to them but sold for $100,000, that wouldn’t have an impact on the value of the first two?
The cheap house isn't right next to the other two. It's in another part of the town, where the infrastructure is worse (-> iPad is much slower than a PC) and the people don't have much money (or prefer not to spend much money -> generally lower price niveau on the platform). Furthermore the 3rd house is not identical to the other two. A couple of low cost components were used, leading to a slighly lower practical value (-> lower resolution, minimal interface issues, no money back guarantee).



If you really don't want to buy games from companies who differentiate their prices by platform, you can stop gaming now. Everybody does it.
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June 29th, 2011, 03:07
Originally Posted by Gorath View Post
The cheap house isn't right next to the other two. It's in another part of the town, where the infrastructure is worse (-> iPad is much slower than a PC) and the people don't have much money (or prefer not to spend much money -> generally lower price niveau on the platform). Furthermore the 3rd house is not identical to the other two. A couple of low cost components were used, leading to a slighly lower practical value (-> lower resolution, minimal interface issues, no money back guarantee).



If you really don't want to buy games from companies who differentiate their prices by platform, you can stop gaming now. Everybody does it.
How dare you mock the iPad?

And I barely play games, and now I will barely play them even less. And when I check to see how much the games I want to buy cost on different platforms, you can call me crazy but I see the exact same price listed or they are PC exclusives. I covered all this in a previous post. I only play good games, and up until now all good games were PC exclusives or sold for the exact same price on different platforms.
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June 29th, 2011, 05:33
See, I was sure you were Roqua but then you spelled "Troika" correctly, which Roqua could never manage. But then, you misspelled "Bieber" and I have faith again.

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June 29th, 2011, 08:07
Every customer (at least in open markets) has the right to buy something or not.

All I can say (again):
If you're a PC only crpg-gamer and decide not to buy Avadon you'll miss a good crpg for a decent price.

For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong. - HL Mencken
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June 29th, 2011, 10:30
Originally Posted by Unrestigered View Post
What a second. That would mean that if two houses were made exactly the same way and both sold for $250,000, and a third identical house was built a little later right next to them but sold for $100,000, that wouldn’t have an impact on the value of the first two?

If you say yes, I would like to sell you my house for what it was worth in 2007.
Are you suggesting that the value of a computer game is in it's resale potential, rather than the enjoyment you get playing it?

If so, any game bought on Steam is not worth anything.

On the other hand, sticking to the dodgy analogy, then is your house price affected by the building of another similar house on the other side of the world?
Last edited by kalniel; June 29th, 2011 at 11:21.
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June 29th, 2011, 10:43
Are we really pretending what we pay for a game, without playing it, is exactly what we deem it's worth?

So, if a game is available at 50$ - with no alternative, we pay 50$ because we know it's worth that price?

Bullshit.

We pay for what we want, without actually knowing what it'll be worth to us. It's impossible to guage with a game we haven't played.

If Avadon is worth 25$ in terms of value for money - then it's worth 25$ on all platforms - regardless of these minor bullshit differences.

But no, there's this thing called market expectations and perception of value. That's what makes the entire value for money argument null and void.

It's 10$ on iPad because that's what Vogel estimates will return the most profit, and it's priced 25$ on PC for EXACTLY the same reason.

Now, either you have a problem with this reality or you don't. I don't have a problem with Vogel going for the profit. I have a problem with him not being upfront about it - with no sugar-coated crap.

That's all it is, really.
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June 29th, 2011, 10:54
You keep saying that but you are ignoring his many business related posts in addition to your unrealistic expectations. He has clearly flagged many times that he is conservative and deeply concerned with sales results - the subtext of every post he makes about pricing is about his profitability. Stop ignoring this.

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June 29th, 2011, 11:17
Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post
You keep saying that but you are ignoring his many business related posts in addition to your unrealistic expectations. He has clearly flagged many times that he is conservative and deeply concerned with sales results - the subtext of every post he makes about pricing is about his profitability. Stop ignoring this.
I have no expectations, stop ignoring this. I have an opinion of how people should conduct themselves to qualify for a positive response. Vogel doesn't. I know you're a fan of his, and you have a very different idea about what consitutes good conduct than I do.

I've read several of his posts, and we obviously have very different interpretations of what's really being said.

We read his reaction very differently, and it's obvious that you and several here think he's doing EXACTLY what he's always said he would be doing.

I see something else. I see a person trying to downplay his own accountability.

He admits that some people might be "upset" and that he's trying to minimise this, by stating the differences between the iPad version and the PC version. An honest individual would simply have said: "Market realities = pricepoint". Don't bullshit your customers. He's also ignoring that the iPad price isn't the problem - it's the DIFFERENCE in price that's the problem. All he had to do was acknowledge that there's a big difference and that he would like to compensate his PC fans by giving them a free game or a reduction in price - or WHATEVER.

But no, he's leaning on his bullshit - and you're here supporting him.

That's fine - and I don't mind you not having a problem, as that's your business.

Now, accept that I have a problem and be done with. How about that?
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June 29th, 2011, 11:22
Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post
You keep saying that but you are ignoring his many business related posts in addition to your unrealistic expectations. He has clearly flagged many times that he is conservative and deeply concerned with sales results - the subtext of every post he makes about pricing is about his profitability. Stop ignoring this.
^
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This!

Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Now, either you have a problem with this reality or you don't. I don't have a problem with Vogel going for the profit. I have a problem with him not being upfront about it - with no sugar-coated crap.
Vogel has stated his rationale for his pricing on PC.
Vogel has stated why the Mac version was $5 less.
Vogel has stated the rationale behind the $10 pricing on the iPad.

Whether you like his reasons, agree with them, think they are thorough enough or mathematically sound are all separate from the fully documented and undeniable truth that he WAS upfront about it.

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June 29th, 2011, 11:26
He's NOT upfront about his reasons for the iPad being so much cheaper. If he was, he wouldn't be talking about resolution-locking and no modding as valid reasons.

Think about it. It's locked at the native iPad 2 resolution - OH THAT'S TERRIBLE.

Beyond that, there's nothing "upfront" about focusing on the iPad price - when fans are upset about the DIFFERENCE. He can alleviate that, but he's pretending it's out of his hands.

That's what I'm saying.

If you think you can "prove" he's being upfront, that's your business - but I think that's a joke.
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June 29th, 2011, 11:30
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
I have no expectations.
Bullshit.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
All he had to do was acknowledge that there's a big difference.
He did - he stated there was a big difference, he pretty much used your 'market realities' point, and he opined that in spite of this some would be angry …

BUT …

Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
he would like to compensate his PC fans by giving them a free game or a reduction in price - or WHATEVER.
And THERE are YOUR expectation. Just be honest - everything else is bullshit on your part. You fully believe that pricing on one incompatible platform 'causes harm' to users of a different platform and therefore he is bound to offer recompense.

And that is where we disagree.

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June 29th, 2011, 11:33
You obviously don't understand the concept of an expectation. I will make it plain for you:

An expectation is what you believe WILL happen. Not what SHOULD happen.

I have ZERO expectations from strangers - because I have nothing to base them on.

I don't EXPECT decent behavior from Vogel - because I don't know him.

However, IF he wants to appear decent in my mind - THEN he should behave decently.

It's pretty simple.

So, before you throw another tantrum - try to understand that I'm not calling Vogel a terrible human being. Far from it.

He made a product and he wants the reward. That's fine and fully ok.

I simply don't like his way of not being upfront about it.

You think he's being upfront? What a surprise. I bet you think your favorite politicians are being upfront, and those you don't like are liars. That's because you interpret based on your fundamental beliefs about right and wrong.

I have an idea of what's honest and decent - and though it may shock you, it's most likely not the same as yours.
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June 29th, 2011, 11:41
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
He's NOT upfront about his reasons for the iPad being so much cheaper.
He actually was, but obviously not to the extent to satisfy those who are looking for some compensation about the massive injustice. Market pricing = reality, he stated that. Some people don't like that and are therefore unwilling to accept any explanation as thorough enough - that would include you, evidently.

As I said earlier, this demonstrated unwillingness to accept his explanation and therefore claim he has offered none would transfer into any compensation - if he offered a game for 50% off, people would complain it should be free. If he offered his next game free, people would complain it should be their choice. If he offered everyone the same thing, long-time customers would complain they deserve more. If he limited he offer to game credit, someone who owns all of Vogel's game would complain that he should get a cash compensation. And so on.

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June 29th, 2011, 11:48
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
He actually was, but obviously not to the extent to satisfy those who are looking for some compensation about the massive injustice. Market pricing = reality, he stated that. Some people don't like that and are therefore unwilling to accept any explanation as thorough enough - that would include you, evidently.

As I said earlier, this demonstrated unwillingness to accept his explanation and therefore claim he has offered none would transfer into any compensation - if he offered a game for 50% off, people would complain it should be free. If he offered his next game free, people would complain it should be their choice. If he offered everyone the same thing, long-time customers would complain they deserve more. If he limited he offer to game credit, someone who owns all of Vogel's game would complain that he should get a cash compensation. And so on.
He said market realities in ADDITION to his bullshit reasoning about the iPad version being inferior. You and I both know the REAL reason is the former, not the latter.

Did he try to alleviate this "anger" by giving other reasons? Certainly. That's the dishonest part.

Do you remember his response to fans not responding favorably to how Avadon differed from his past games? He completely ignored his own accountability - and made it out like all his fans were basically whiny little children. He tried later to "smooth" it over - but his opinion is clear. I'm sure you have the reverse opinion, am I right?

I'm neither a fan of him or his games. I simply read the news bits and respond accordingly.

I don't really care what others would have done. I'm talking about my personal concept of decency.

If he offered a game for 50% off - that would go a long way. Not because I give a shit about money or anything like that - but because it would tell me he's aware of being accountable for his own choices.

That's a big part of what I require for decency.

But I have no such expectations. People will be people, afterall.
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June 29th, 2011, 12:04
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Do you remember his response to fans not responding favorably to how Avadon differed from his past games? He completely ignored his own accountability - and made it out like all his fans were basically whiny little children. He tried later to "smooth" it over - but his opinion is clear. I'm sure you have the reverse opinion, am I right?
Actually, no I don't have the reverse opinion of him. Though I have no specific recollection of that incident.

Having dealt with Jeff through beta testing I know he is 'just some guy' and honestly at times he has been a total a$$hat. Unreasonable, emotional, reactive, petulant, and so on.

I do not attach some great attributes to him - I personally like his games for what they are . To me they are worth $25 every year to play, offer something I don't get from the corporate factories at BioBethBlizzActiUbiEASoft.

That said, I have written in the past that many so-called RPG fans are often the absolute worst things for the genre - they are loud, self-contradictory, and nigh on impossible to satisfy. Also it is possible I had just ignored the outrage as I had already been playing Avadon for months and had formed my opinions about what it was and was not.

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June 29th, 2011, 12:06
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
He said market realities in ADDITION to his bullshit reasoning about the iPad version being inferior. You and I both know the REAL reason is the former, not the latter.
That is something I also agree with - he obviously tried to nuance things by stating something that is factually correct but irrelevant in practice. I have played the 'normal' Mac and PC version, the one from the Mac App Store, and the iPad version. For the way I play (standard resolution, no mods, etc) the games are identical. And I assume that is true for the majority of gamers who play his stuff.

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June 29th, 2011, 12:13
I don't disagree that we have a lot of morons on "our side" - but do I have to become one among them?

I may be a total dickhead suckface bastard, but at least let me qualify for it - without uncalled-for assumptions.

Vogel strikes me as just another human being - doing what he can to make a living. I can't blame him for that - and I respect that he actually gets games made, as I know from personal experience how much work that takes.

But I can easily separate an invididual from his individual actions.

In my world, we're basically all equal - as we have no way of measuring objective "value" that I subscribe to. So, all I'm saying is that I don't think his actions in this matter are decent or upfront. Doesn't mean his dishonest or a bad person in general - and I have no way of really knowing that.

The vibe I'm getting from him, though, is that he's a very defensive person - based on his games and them getting out there - which is understandable. But he's trusting his own objectivity too much and his emotional attachment can cloud reality and I'm honestly not impressed with his general conduct in public. Also, I think his games are pretty dreadful in some vital ways. Avadon was better, certainly, but obviously it just isn't a game for me.

He's under no obligation to impress me, though, so it matters fuck all I suppose.

But I have reasons for my opinion that MAY be slightly more solid than these horrible CRPG fans you're referring to.
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