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Default M&M: Heroes VI - Preview @ RPS

August 9th, 2011, 18:40
Originally Posted by Michael Dean View Post
Have you tried the Fantasy Wars/Elven Legacy series? I crank the difficulty to max and play and I have to say, it's the hardest AI I've ever played against (especially the newer expansions)…far surpassing Panzer General's AI. I always play iron man as well, meaning that if I lose I start the whole mission over and never replay a turn. Maybe it would be a cakewalk to you, but it definitely challenges me.
No, those games don't appeal to me for the same reason. I played and enjoyed Panzer General and Fantasy General back in the day, but that kind of design is just too primitive for me today.

It's not about them being too easy - but too boring. If "all" the game is about is defeating an AI - then I'm just not interested. I don't find the challenge meaningful or engaging anymore.

I need something MORE rather than something HARDER.

So, it's not about me being so good or clever - but about me wanting more diversity in the gameplay and more distractions. I'd say I'm a fair strategic player and a pretty good tactical player - but I can still have my ass handed to me - even in games like Civilization. It's just that I find AI opponents hollow and meaningless.

Does that make sense to you?
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August 9th, 2011, 19:17
King's Bounty is in many ways more of a RPG then a strategy game. The goal isn't so much to defeath the AI as it is to constantly develop your character and your armies so they get strong enough to defeat increasingly harder groups of monsters. It's nothing at all like playing a single player strategy game where both you and your opponent are faced with similar rules and restraints. It's more like doing a dungeon crawl where you start out at lvl 1 and slowly level up so you can fight harder enemies and go to more dangerous areas. As such I'm not sure if it would be even possible to turn it into a multiplayer game without an incredibly dramatic overhaul. Such an overhaul would probably end up turning it into HoMM.
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August 9th, 2011, 19:31
Originally Posted by fadedc View Post
King's Bounty is in many ways more of a RPG then a strategy game. The goal isn't so much to defeath the AI as it is to constantly develop your character and your armies so they get strong enough to defeat increasingly harder groups of monsters. It's nothing at all like playing a single player strategy game where both you and your opponent are faced with similar rules and restraints. It's more like doing a dungeon crawl where you start out at lvl 1 and slowly level up so you can fight harder enemies and go to more dangerous areas. As such I'm not sure if it would be even possible to turn it into a multiplayer game without an incredibly dramatic overhaul. Such an overhaul would probably end up turning it into HoMM.
It's not that different from HoMM, really. Just take HoMM - reduce the city aspect and enhance the character building aspect. That's pretty much KB - only with one huge campaign, rather than a series of smaller ones.

Developing your character with the intention of being able to defeat stronger armies, is almost exactly what you're doing in HoMM scenarios. You're always fighting and building your army - so you can defeat even stronger armies.

But you're right, the emphasis is not on building cities or taking them over - it's on building your character and army.

It's kinda like playing Diablo alone - with the added layer of tactical combat.

Not that such a game can't be great fun if you're into it, it's just not for me.

The game could have worked pretty well as a cooperative strategy game, where each player had their own character and their own army - working together to "clear the map" of enemies and completing quests. That would have added something to the experience that I would consider worthwhile.

Of course, the design would have to accomodate multiple players taking turns - and perhaps sharing resources etc. - but I don't see why it couldn't be done with a slightly different design approach.

But it's not important. The game is what it is, and it obviously works for a lot of people.
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August 9th, 2011, 22:55
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
I need something MORE rather than something HARDER.

So, it's not about me being so good or clever - but about me wanting more diversity in the gameplay and more distractions. I'd say I'm a fair strategic player and a pretty good tactical player - but I can still have my ass handed to me - even in games like Civilization. It's just that I find AI opponents hollow and meaningless.

Does that make sense to you?
That totally makes sense. Hmm…I do see your attraction to a well-designed multiplayer-capable strategic game. I can also understand your frustration at a seeming lack of such titles.

I'll have to think about this.
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August 10th, 2011, 00:48
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
It's not that different from HoMM, really. Just take HoMM - reduce the city aspect and enhance the character building aspect. That's pretty much KB - only with one huge campaign, rather than a series of smaller ones.
Wel but you aren't playing against an AI which makes a big difference. It's more like HoMM without computer opponents where you only fight neutral stacks. There are actually user made HoMM maps like this, and some of them are quite fun. But they don't play anything like a traditional HoMM game where you have an AI opponent who is doing things at the same time that you are.

Also In HoMM you armies aren't necesarily constantly evolving and getting stronger like in KB. Your army grows and shrinks based on what is going on, what towns you take and lose, what causalties you suffer, etc. This is a big part of what makes it a strategy game. In KB your army just constantly grows as you level up and increase your leadership. When you lose troops at the end of a fight you just recruit back up to your old max. This is what makes army management in KB more akin to leveling up in a RPG. Your army strength is set at a constant level based on your character's stats.
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August 10th, 2011, 09:04
Originally Posted by fadedc View Post
Wel but you aren't playing against an AI which makes a big difference. It's more like HoMM without computer opponents where you only fight neutral stacks. There are actually user made HoMM maps like this, and some of them are quite fun. But they don't play anything like a traditional HoMM game where you have an AI opponent who is doing things at the same time that you are.
Ehm, we do agree that what is behind the behaviour of these neutral stacks is an AI, right?

Also In HoMM you armies aren't necesarily constantly evolving and getting stronger like in KB. Your army grows and shrinks based on what is going on, what towns you take and lose, what causalties you suffer, etc. This is a big part of what makes it a strategy game. In KB your army just constantly grows as you level up and increase your leadership. When you lose troops at the end of a fight you just recruit back up to your old max. This is what makes army management in KB more akin to leveling up in a RPG. Your army strength is set at a constant level based on your character's stats.
Well, I do appreciate the differences between the two games - and I actually consider them both to be really great titles.

But KB is just not for me, regardless of its strengths. I think it's important to be able to recognise the appeal of certain games, even if you don't personally enjoy them.

I can do that in many cases, and with KB easily. It's a competent game all-round. Even if they seem to be redoing it over and over with what they're putting out - but who can blame them, really.
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August 10th, 2011, 10:01
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Ehm, we do agree that what is behind the behaviour of these neutral stacks is an AI, right?
Technically yes, in the same way that AI is behind the behavior of wandering monsters in a RPG. But there isn't an AI kingdom competing against you or anything like that.
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August 10th, 2011, 10:05
Originally Posted by fadedc View Post
Technically yes, in the same way that AI is behind the behavior of wandering monsters in a RPG. But there isn't an AI kingdom competing against you or anything like that.
No, I know the game

It's the same problem, though.

In an RPG - there's usually a lot of story, exploration, and immersive qualities. Things to motivate me to experience the game - and to have something to "look back on" after I'm done. I know KB has SOME elements like that, but the end-result still feels pretty much like a pure strategy game.

I find that most strategy games feel quite hollow after "beating them" or getting through them. They sort of blur together and represent the same kind of experience, whether I play Civilization, Master of Orion, or Heroes of Might and Magic.

I realise there's a story in KB - but it's not presented in a way that really engages me.

I have the same problem with Space Rangers 2, for instance. It has a ton of great features - but there's just not enough over-arching motivation to actually experience the game. Not to me, at least.
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August 10th, 2011, 22:11
Definitely agree that KB is not about the story by any stretch of the imagination. It's a pure character advancement/power gamer RPG where it's only about leveling up, getting new skills and items, and becoming strong enough to defeat enemies that you previously had no hope against. It's an extremely good example of that type of game, but if that type of game is not your thing then you definitely will not like it.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
No, I know the game

It's the same problem, though.

In an RPG - there's usually a lot of story, exploration, and immersive qualities. Things to motivate me to experience the game - and to have something to "look back on" after I'm done. I know KB has SOME elements like that, but the end-result still feels pretty much like a pure strategy game.

I find that most strategy games feel quite hollow after "beating them" or getting through them. They sort of blur together and represent the same kind of experience, whether I play Civilization, Master of Orion, or Heroes of Might and Magic.

I realise there's a story in KB - but it's not presented in a way that really engages me.

I have the same problem with Space Rangers 2, for instance. It has a ton of great features - but there's just not enough over-arching motivation to actually experience the game. Not to me, at least.
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August 11th, 2011, 12:32
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
KB = singleplayer-only = boring.
Guild Wars = Multiplayer only = boring.

Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction. (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
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August 11th, 2011, 12:36
Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer View Post
Guild Wars = Multiplayer only = boring.
Alrik = Alien = Ridley Scott masterpiece.
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