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Default Deus Ex: Human Revolution - Comments on Invisible War

August 15th, 2011, 19:17
Originally Posted by DoctorNarrative View Post
Depends on what you mean by stream well. From what I hear UE3 games have horrible texture pop-in and open-world games have horrible pop-in of everything. I played Oblivion on the Xbox and the grass fades in literally right in front of you. One great example of console limitations would be Mass Effect… the original ran like complete shit on the Xbox with texture pop-in galore. ME2 thus was made using smaller and more corridor-y areas.

To pretend the RAM limitations do not effect games is silly.
Who is pretending RAM limitations don't affect games?

Did I say UE3 streams well? I just said they made the engine capable of it - based on their own words.

I'm saying consoles can stream content well, if you limit asset size and have good content structure. Why? Because it's been done in several games.

It's not rocket science.

I specifically said Oblivion streams poorly. Mass Effect isn't a streaming content game in the traditional sense, really. It's more about loading levels/textures as fast as possible but not to stream it continuously . It suffers from the pop-in even on PC. UE3 might be able to stream content - but that doesn't mean all games using it are taking advantage of it.

You said Fallout 3, Assassin's Creed, and GTA stream "poorly" on consoles. Do you stand by that or don't you?
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August 15th, 2011, 20:46
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Who is pretending RAM limitations don't affect games?
Well I thought it was you, so I guess no one? I dunno. What the fuck are we debating then?

The point originally was that IW was made in the early days of Western genres going to consoles and PC gamers getting ports of them. Someone said that's not really a problem anymore and I said oh yes it is, due to RAM amongst other things. If you agree with that then I don't know really why we would argue about it. I was under the impression you didn't.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
You said Fallout 3, Assassin's Creed, and GTA stream "poorly" on consoles. Do you stand by that or don't you?
They all have pretty close to the character pop-in and low framerates. They all would be better if made for the PC first.
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August 15th, 2011, 22:48
Originally Posted by DoctorNarrative View Post
Well I thought it was you, so I guess no one? I dunno. What the fuck are we debating then?
Based on what, exactly?

The point originally was that IW was made in the early days of Western genres going to consoles and PC gamers getting ports of them. Someone said that's not really a problem anymore and I said oh yes it is, due to RAM amongst other things. If you agree with that then I don't know really why we would argue about it. I was under the impression you didn't.
I think you're the one arguing, really. Why, though, I can't say. Since you're cursing about it, I guess it means a lot to you. Then again, I suppose this is another example of you "speaking your mind" without taking it to heart, right?

I simply said that streaming is not a problem with consoles if you limit texture/asset size - which is pretty evident if you look at the games doing it successfully.

They all have pretty close to the character pop-in and low framerates. They all would be better if made for the PC first.
Oh, so that's your actual point, then. That they would be better on PC? Well, that's quite different isn't it. I agree that PC is the superior platform.

As for "pretty close to character pop-in and low framerates" - that's too loose for me to comment on.

All I can say is that the games work fine technically, and that their PC counterparts aren't significantly better in this particular way.
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August 16th, 2011, 00:33
Originally Posted by Avantenor View Post
Marketeers maybe. The average gamer buys one copy of a game and does not tend to have multiple consoles and a gaming PC. So why should he care if it comes also to another platform? He expects it coming to his platform, that's all.
No, I'm talking about gamers, and whether or not someone owns multiple platforms has nothing to do with that. It also has nothing to do with caring about other platforms. It's simply expected because that has been the trend for some time now.
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August 16th, 2011, 01:56
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Oh, so that's your actual point, then. That they would be better on PC? Well, that's quite different isn't it. I agree that PC is the superior platform.
The whole point was that IW was made for consoles and ported to the PC at a time when that was rare, so it was more annoying. I followed that up by saying we still suffer from console limitations, we are just more used to it. RAM size was a part of that.

You then said console memory limits "aren't a problem" which to me insinuated that the tech differences are not significant. If that is not what you meant then okay fine.

As for "pretty close to character pop-in and low framerates" - that's too loose for me to comment on.

All I can say is that the games work fine technically, and that their PC counterparts aren't significantly better in this particular way.
Hahaha… so 20-30fps with nearby pop-in is not significantly worse than 60fps with distant pop-in as well as 16xAF and 8xMSAA? Okay then.
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August 16th, 2011, 09:28
Originally Posted by DoctorNarrative View Post
The whole point was that IW was made for consoles and ported to the PC at a time when that was rare, so it was more annoying. I followed that up by saying we still suffer from console limitations, we are just more used to it. RAM size was a part of that.
That's not what I responded to. I've said nothing against that.

I responded to this:

Yeah but the pop-in is terrible on console for those games. Basically you either build an engine that streams content in outside of 20 feet or so or you build smaller areas. Crysis 2 chose the latter.

Which, to my mind, is flat out incorrect - and it's quite telling of how much you seem to know about what it means to load content dynamically. Also, you must have a really harsh level of acceptance if you think the three games in question have "terrible pop-in".

You then said console memory limits "aren't a problem" which to me insinuated that the tech differences are not significant. If that is not what you meant then okay fine.
I said exactly what I meant. I said it's not a problem IF YOU REDUCE TEXTURE AND ASSET SIZE. It's not a problem specific to consoles. The entire concept of making a good-looking streaming game IS a "problem" as in, it's hard and very few games pull it off (even on PC). But it's not that much harder on consoles - as the modern versions have harddrives available for cache and enough memory to contain decent looking assets. Just look at the Skyrim videos - to get my point. They also have several cores available for multithreaded tasks, which can be a big help when so much is lost to the dynamic loading process.

My basic point is that streaming technology isn't so much dependent on RAM availability - but on code and data. As in how you handle data structure, and how you design the dynamic loading process. It's a matter of deciding when to load what and what to keep in memory - stuff like that.

Obviously, RAM will limit what you can have in memory. I mean, would anyone here really say otherwise?

Hahaha… so 20-30fps with nearby pop-in is not significantly worse than 60fps with distant pop-in as well as 16xAF and 8xMSAA? Okay then.
Ehm, hahaha - we're talking about pop-in. I don't know what version you've played on your console, but the Fallout 3 I have on my Xbox 360 streams content very well. I can hardly tell the difference when I play it unmodded on PC.

As for FPS and visual additions - that's a completely separate concept.

What's with you anyway? What's this "hahaha" "fuck" and so on? Can't you have a rational debate without it?

This isn't about me wanting to "put you down". I'm simply disagreeing with what you're saying. No big deal, is it.
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August 16th, 2011, 16:59
The point about the console RAM restricition is correct. But hardware restrictions are also true for weaker mainstream PCs, 'though likely it would be a little bit more appealing.

In the beginning DX3 afaik was only announced for PC. They confirmed that they were proving console versions as well, but they haven't been sure about that for quite some time. Don't think they gave up all their ideals to compromise.

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August 16th, 2011, 21:27
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Ehm, hahaha - we're talking about pop-in. I don't know what version you've played on your console, but the Fallout 3 I have on my Xbox 360 streams content very well. I can hardly tell the difference when I play it unmodded on PC.
My girl has an Xbox 360 and I have played plenty of games on her console and compared them to my PC versions. They look terrible. Some people notice that stuff less, I grant you, but open world games perform and look substantially better on the PC all the time.

What's with you anyway? What's this "hahaha" "fuck" and so on? Can't you have a rational debate without it?

This isn't about me wanting to "put you down". I'm simply disagreeing with what you're saying. No big deal, is it.
I'm not going to pay much attention to internet politeness tips from someone as arrogant and condescending as you, no offense. We have had some nice debates in the past but honestly 75% of the time you just irritate the hell out of me and that probably shows in my responses to you.
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August 17th, 2011, 07:58
Originally Posted by DoctorNarrative View Post
My girl has an Xbox 360 and I have played plenty of games on her console and compared them to my PC versions. They look terrible. Some people notice that stuff less, I grant you, but open world games perform and look substantially better on the PC all the time.
As I said, if you think the games in question stream significantly worse on consoles and "look terrible" - you must have a very different idea of that concept than I do.

I'm not going to pay much attention to internet politeness tips from someone as arrogant and condescending as you, no offense. We have had some nice debates in the past but honestly 75% of the time you just irritate the hell out of me and that probably shows in my responses to you.
I have no use for politeness. I just need someone willing to focus on the matter at hand, if I'm going to have a discussion.

Now, I've had a strong feeling that it's been personal with you - more so than in the past. Repeatedly, you've claimed that I've been condescending and so on.

But there's a difference between condescending, and then simply disagreeing with someone. I don't sugarcoat in "polite" ways - but I also don't intentionally speak "down" or anything like that. At least, not as the initiator.

Unfortunately, I really do think you have a tendency to speak from the heart before the mind, and you're not willing to face that afterwards. That means you will very quickly have "trouble" when you encounter someone who speaks from the mind before the heart. That's pretty much what happens here.

That has nothing to do with me being "smarter" or "better" than you, but I just have a lot of practice not letting my emotions enter the arena - for better or worse. Also, I think you actually agree with me some of the time when it seems you don't - and I think you're pretty intelligent from what I can detect. I can almost sense, through the screen, how irritated you get when you know you should have said something in a different way, but instead of acknowledging it - you let that irritation direct itself towards me.

You just speak sometimes before you've really thought it through. We ALL speak like that, but I've personally found that it helps to be able to accept that and not become stubborn about it when it's clear that we've overreacted to something or phrased something in an unfortunate way. This whole "being wrong on the Internet" thing is not that big a deal to me. That's why I'm quick to apologise or acknowledge my mistakes as soon as I see them. Like everyone, I fail to see it sometimes - but that's inevitable as a human being.

In any case, I have no interest in exchanging with someone who's constantly irritated and can't conduct a rational debate without pointless personal drivel. So I'll save you the pain and put you on ignore for the time being.
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