The Wall Street Occupation

Originally Posted by dteowner
Well isn't this sweet. Stick it to The Man, but let's keep it quiet if some man decides to stick it to a female protester.

They don't want anything to do with the police force, yet they're willing to make an exception on rape. They also aren't encouraging the victims not to tell anyone, they're encouraging not telling the police.

Considering how the police tends to treat rape victims I don't see not telling the police as that much of a problem (not telling them doesn't really make things any worse, sadly enough). I mean, it's not like they'll get any more support there than they'll get elsewhere. Quite the opposite, I'd say.

The increase in sexual violence towards women (when there's rape you can bet there's all the milder things as well) in the movement is a worry though. Because of the feminist "foolishness" blatantninja mentioned earlier I had hope this movement would push for a change in that area too, but the longer it goes it seems the movement is falling into the same heteronormative traps as the rest of our society is already stuck in.

But to point finger because they're getting as bad as the rest of society strikes me as… the wrong response. That's not the problem.

And I don't see what the rapist has to do with helping the raped. Apart from, maybe, if getting the rapist to understand what he did was wrong will lead to him apoligizing. That might help the victim get over it. But yeah, councelling the rapist won't help the victim. It might prevent future victims though. And, as I mentioned above, it's not like there'd be more help avaliable if she went to the police.

Übereil

You know, Thrasher is convinced that the Tea Party is evil incarnate, but I can't remember a single instance of a Tea Party rally ending in tear gas. I wonder what the excuse will be for this one.

http://news.yahoo.com/occupy-oakland…101824932.html

Police have used tear gas and “flash bang” grenades on a large crowd of demonstrators that lit a massive bonfire in the streets of downtown Oakland, Calif., in a conflict following a day of action that saw the city’s port closed after demonstrators. blocked it [sic]

Several banks were vandalized and a dozen windows were shattered at the Wells Fargo branch, while an area of Whole Foods was vandalized after rumors spread that employees who participated in the strike would be fired, according to ABC News affiliate KGO.

Well ain't that just the pillar of citizenship…

I can remember Tea Party propaganda ending with a politician getting shot.

Originally Posted by Ubereil
They don't want anything to do with the police force, yet they're willing to make an exception on rape. They also aren't encouraging the victims not to tell anyone, they're encouraging not telling the police.

Considering how the police tends to treat rape victims I don't see not telling the police as that much of a problem (not telling them doesn't really make things any worse, sadly enough). I mean, it's not like they'll get any more support there than they'll get elsewhere. Quite the opposite, I'd say.

So you think that not telling the police, and thus allowing a rapist to go free, to rape again, is ok? That more rapes won't occur? Seriously?

Originally Posted by JemyM
I can remember Tea Party propaganda ending with a politician getting shot.

So are you insinuating that all the OWSers are mentally unbalanced like that guy was?

I could agree with that.

Originally Posted by JemyM
I can remember Tea Party propaganda ending with a politician getting shot.

Laughner had exactly ZERO connection to the Tea Party in spite of over 300 reporters and investigators trying to manufacture a link. Every single one of them determined that if Laughner had any political leanings at all (in general, he was too nutty for coherent and consistent policy of any ilk), he leaned left. But why let pesky facts get in the way of your preconceptions, eh?

Except that the Queen of the Tea Party, Caribou Barbie, Sarah Paling put crosshairs on the congress woman. Please feel to ignore her encouragement of assassination attempts.

There's no evidence at all that Laughner ever even saw the crosshairs thing, in spite of over 300 investigators and media desperately trying to find a link. So, even if you think the crosshairs thing was a crime against humanity (I don't, but I'm not going to call you wrong for feeling that way), linking it to Laughner and then using that to indict the Tea Party, as JemyM did and you appear to be doing, is just utterly dishonest bullshit.

Originally Posted by blatantninja
So you think that not telling the police, and thus allowing a rapist to go free, to rape again, is ok? That more rapes won't occur? Seriously?

For one, their "no police" policy does actually make an exception for rape.

For two, there's this. Sure, it's an Australian site, but I'm fairly certain an investigation of America would yield similiar results. See what I mean about it not being that much of a problem (emphasised to highlight that I'm not saying it's not a problem)? Far too often reporting a rape ammounts to nothing at all. Even worse, far too often it leads to nothing but humiliation and scorn. That not reporting a rape is letting a man go free indicates that reporting the rape ensures the man won't which is almost, but not entirely, untrue.

For three, they WANT to councel the rapists. Considering number two, this is more than your crime fighting system usually does to rapists. It's probably more efficient than everything your crime fighting system does, even to those convicted for rape (stuffing them into a jail and leaving them there for a while isn't going to get them to realize they shouldn't rape pepole).

As for trying to prevent rape? Well, rape is (to a large extent) caused by our view on sex and power relations regarding sex. It's (if we oversimplify it) about male priviliege (IE men having been brought up to think they're entitled to it). With your talk about educating about male priviliege and the attempts to promote women to speak I had hopes the movement could make the men involved aware of these privilieges. But I guess the men in charge have since come to the conclusion there's more important things to do. As is usually the case regarding preventing hardships women has to endure. As I said, it seems the movement is falling into the same heteronormative traps the rest of our society is already stuck in.

Übereil

As expected, you're dishonestly ignoring the Tea Party's encouragement of assassination. And you're defending the police for inflicting serious injuries on peaceful demonstrators. That's bullshit.

Originally Posted by Ubereil
For one, their "no police" policy does actually make an exception for rape.

So assault is still a no police crime, right? Great policy.

For two, there's this. Sure, it's an Australian site, but I'm fairly certain an investigation of America would yield similiar results. See what I mean about it not being that much of a problem (emphasised to highlight that I'm not saying it's not a problem)? Far too often reporting a rape ammounts to nothing at all. Even worse, far too often it leads to nothing but humiliation and scorn. That not reporting a rape is letting a man go free indicates that reporting the rape ensures the man won't which is almost, but not entirely, untrue.

No, it ensures that there is a least a chance he will be punished and stopped. If you don't report it at all, there is ZERO chance.

For three, they WANT to councel the rapists. Considering number two, this is more than your crime fighting system usually does to rapists. It's probably more efficient than everything your crime fighting system does, even to those convicted for rape (stuffing them into a jail and leaving them there for a while isn't going to get them to realize they shouldn't rape pepole).

Got proof its more effective? I'd like to see one LEGITIMATE physiologist that agrees that counseling is the most effective way to deal with rapists.

As for trying to prevent rape? Well, rape is (to a large extent) caused by our view on sex and power relations regarding sex. It's (if we oversimplify it) about male priviliege (IE men having been brought up to think they're entitled to it). With your talk about educating about male priviliege and the attempts to promote women to speak I had hopes the movement could make the men involved aware of these privilieges. But I guess the men in charge have since come to the conclusion there's more important things to do. As is usually the case regarding preventing hardships women has to endure. As I said, it seems the movement is falling into the same heteronormative traps the rest of our society is already stuck in.

Übereil

Ahh yes, blame the men for existing. How nice and easy for you.

Originally Posted by Thrasher
As expected, you're dishonestly ignoring the Tea Party's encouragement of assassination. And you're defending the police for inflicting serious injuries on peaceful demonstrators. That's bullshit.

Where was the Tea Party's encouragement of assassination?

And you should qualify your statement as not all of the demonstrators are being peaceful (check out the Whole Foods in Oakland lately?)

In all the cases I've read so far, the demonstrators have been provoked by violence from the Police.

Originally Posted by Thrasher
And you're defending the police for inflicting serious injuries on peaceful demonstrators.

Quotes, or you're a flat out liar.

Originally Posted by Thrasher
In all the cases I've read so far, the demonstrators have been provoked by violence from the Police.

I'm not aware of any police that were even in the vicinity to provoke the violence at that Whole Foods.

The pot calling the kettle black again are we DTE? Seems you're OK throwing around lies and strawmen about others, but love to accuse others of lying, when it's not even true? How typical.

Originally Posted by blatantninja
I'm not aware of any police that were even in the vicinity to provoke the violence at that Whole Foods.

They practically killed the veteran in Oakland, with a gas canister to the head.

Originally Posted by Thrasher
They practically killed the veteran in Oakland, with a gas canister to the head.

That was last week. How does that justify vandalizing (and terrorizing the people inside) a Whole Foods over a week later?

Originally Posted by blatantninja
So assault is still a no police crime, right? Great policy.

Remember how they want absolutely nothing to do with the police? It's not that they don't want policing, they just don't want the police to do the policing, because they don't think the police is doing what it's supposed to.

Given the track record of the American police I understand them. Not sure who else can deal with it better, though.

Originally Posted by blatantninja
No, it ensures that there is a least a chance he will be punished and stopped. If you don't report it at all, there is ZERO chance.

Like I said, the likelihood that punishing him will stop him is low. The likelihood that he will stop is probably much higher with councelling.

Besides, there's as much rape in jails as outside of them, if not more. So that jail stops rape is… well, it's false. The only difference is that we like those rape victims less.

Originally Posted by blatantninja
Got proof its more effective? I'd like to see one LEGITIMATE physiologist that agrees that counseling is the most effective way to deal with rapists.

Got any proof it isn't?

If what I say about the cause of rape is true, then getting rapists to understand that a mini-skirt doesn't mean you're entitled to sex is going to be more effective than prison. Because prison isn't going to get them to awknowledge that (if anything prison will only strengthen that belief).

(And I've seen evidence that councelling works well when it comes to domestic violence. So why wouldn't it work with rapists? I doubt there's all that much difference in mentality between the two.)

Originally Posted by blatantninja
Ahh yes, blame the men for existing. How nice and easy for you.

I don't blame men for being sexist (being a man myself and all). I do get a little cross when they refuse to even try, though. But blame? I don't blame pepole (for the same reason I don't blame bacterias or viruses for causing diseases), I just wish they'd be less arrogant.

Übereil

If the police start using violence, it will escalate on both sides. I won't be surprised if it won't stop until someone is killed. Even then, it may take some serious guillotine action on fat Wall Street brokers, CEOs, and corporations before it simmers down.