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January 3rd, 2012, 01:11
Originally Posted by Grimlorn View Post
I'm doubtful this will happen. The middle will just get smaller and smaller as jobs and wages pay less and less. There's going to be more and more competition for jobs and corporations can afford to cut wages or keep them the same even though cost of living goes up. Sure there will still be some people at "middle class" on salaries but not enough to affect any change.

I guarantee a lot of these people at the Wall Street Occupation are middle class or grew up in the middle class families. Now they are on their own and they don't know what to do. They know something is wrong but not what exactly or how to fix it.

It would be nice if they were possibly a third party that represented not just the middle class but moderates on both sides. I think that might actually work and help at least in the short term. I think moderates would be more willing to compromise and listen to reason that would lead to real problem solving. And you could leave the fringe in the other two parties. It would never happen though.
Well, I guess you could form the Democratic-Republican Party and hope for the best!! However, what I find happening is that political parties posture a great deal, but basically try to position themselves somewhere in the middle of the political spectrum. What you get are parties slightly off center. Now what I find interesting is how that center line changes. You can now get lefties who are to the right of where many righties were a few years ago!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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January 3rd, 2012, 02:17
Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
Well, I guess you could form the Democratic-Republican Party and hope for the best!! However, what I find happening is that political parties posture a great deal, but basically try to position themselves somewhere in the middle of the political spectrum. What you get are parties slightly off center. Now what I find interesting is how that center line changes. You can now get lefties who are to the right of where many righties were a few years ago!!
I don't think that's happening here. Maybe at the executive level with the Presidency, but in Congress it's a bit different. Bush was neoconservative and Obama campaigned on pretty left wing policies but in the end he's been pretty moderate for the most part. I think it's a lot different when you're actually in the big seat. You can run on these changes and promises but when you get the job, you realize you can't do it for whatever reasons.

Congress however is unwilling to negotiate or compromise on both sides and isn't accomplishing anything. It's why our credit rating got downgraded. It's why nothing is getting accomplished. Most people will lay the blame at the President's feet for the current state of the economy and the nation but they don't see that the real problem is in Congress. Especially the Senate. That's why the Republican party doesn't care to compromise. I'm sure if there were a Republican president they'd be more willing to.

I'm sure the Democrats would give the Republicans large cuts if they raised taxes on the wealthy 2 percent. Hell you could set it up so the 2 percent goes towards the debt and nothing else, then cut the 2 percent when a significant portion of the debt is paid off to boost the economy. Sure the economy would take a small hit short term but at least we'd be making the necessary changes to get the debt paid off. The longer we wait the bigger the problems become. Long term we'll be in a much worse place.
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January 3rd, 2012, 02:50
Originally Posted by Grimlorn View Post
I'm sure the Democrats would give the Republicans large cuts if they raised taxes on the wealthy 2 percent. Hell you could set it up so the 2 percent goes towards the debt and nothing else, then cut the 2 percent when a significant portion of the debt is paid off to boost the economy. Sure the economy would take a small hit short term but at least we'd be making the necessary changes to get the debt paid off. The longer we wait the bigger the problems become. Long term we'll be in a much worse place.
Oh, I do enjoy this sort of thing. You do realize that if you took 100% of the income from the top 2%, it still wouldn't cover Obama's deficit, let alone put a single dollar toward the national debt?

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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January 3rd, 2012, 03:10
Nothing short of asking every US citizen to fork out $48,538.02 (as of today) would deal with national debt. And I haven't noticed anybody here who would propose that national debt can be dealt with within next 30 days by a simple expedient of taxing the rich. What some of us are saying is that extra revenue from taxing top 1 or 2% would be helpful in dealing with national debt in the long term.
Last edited by zahratustra; January 3rd, 2012 at 03:33.
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January 3rd, 2012, 03:29
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Oh, I do enjoy this sort of thing. You do realize that if you took 100% of the income from the top 2%, it still wouldn't cover Obama's deficit, let alone put a single dollar toward the national debt?
That's not all I said. You're pretty much politically batshit crazy, so you can shut up.
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January 3rd, 2012, 04:41
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January 3rd, 2012, 04:55
I might be crazy, but I'm factually right, which is more than you can say. You're welcome to try to shout me down if it makes you feel better, though.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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January 3rd, 2012, 04:59
Originally Posted by zahratustra View Post
Nothing short of asking every US citizen to fork out $48,538.02 (as of today) would deal with national debt. And I haven't noticed anybody here who would propose that national debt can be dealt with within next 30 days by a simple expedient of taxing the rich. What some of us are saying is that extra revenue from taxing top 1 or 2% would be helpful in dealing with national debt in the long term.
By your own admission, it wouldn't even make a dent. The only thing it would accomplish is make the class warfare folks feel like they "won". At least until the economy sickened further and a lot of them lost their jobs, but they probably wouldn't make the connection.

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January 3rd, 2012, 05:12
The problem with discussing things like the national debt is that most people can NOT comprehend the numbers involved. I'm a mathematician and I struggle to comprehend trillions. It's when you break it down into smaller bite sized pieces like $50k per person that it begins to make an impact. I know how much that is and what it will purchase. Good luck with your economy; I'm glad I live here!!

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January 3rd, 2012, 06:28
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
The only thing it would accomplish is make the class warfare folks feel like they "won". At least until the economy sickened further and a lot of them lost their jobs, but they probably wouldn't make the connection.
And making cut without additional revenue will make it all better? Those "starve the beast" wet dreams again?
Last edited by zahratustra; January 4th, 2012 at 19:03.
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January 3rd, 2012, 08:22
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Completely agree, but there's still got to be some sort of fiscal delusion to backstop the bacchanal. I understand that you're kinda saying "something will be created" but to have such confidence in your prediction I'd think you'd have to have some general ideas about what "something" might look like.
No, no - nothing concrete. I just tell myself I understand human nature. We can make up any excuse to carry ourselves.

The people that run the show would shoulder all the pain in a "wipe the slate" scenerio. I just don't see too many altruists among the hoi poloi and the financiers.
You don't seem to get my point here. It wouldn't be altruism - as it would be saving their own ass in the end. The reason we're going to suffer for a while, is that it takes a long time before they will concede. Naturally, they will try to hold on to their illusionary wealth for as long as it's humanly possible. But I don't see civil war happening in the US.

Especially not since the civilians in "power" are not soldiers themselves, and times have changed enough so that they can't control people to fight for them. Not for that kind of cause.

The only people willing to actually go to war would be the desperate and those without wealth - because they have something real to fight for, and in that already somewhat extreme scenario - the rich would have to concede. That's after the government and the civilised world as a whole realise that debts are pointless when they're sufficiently widespread and entitlement is moronic under these circumstances.

But there are other countries much affected, but war is not so uncommon around there - and the reason for war would be the same as always.

That said, I doubt it will really come that far in all but the most desperate of places. We'll likely "turn it around" - and few lessons will have been learned. It's not exactly the first time something like this has happened. The history books are full of it, and we still haven't learned.

It's all about how you apply free market principles, but global governance is far too diverse and WAY too ham-fisted for that sort of thoughtful policy. And as soon as you bring human nature into the picture, you submarine the whole thing since a whole lot of people (including most of your powerbase) are actually deluded into believing that people are innately good and somehow "above" their basic instincts.
The most basic of instincts is survival, which is kinda my point here.
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January 3rd, 2012, 13:51
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Oh, I do enjoy this sort of thing. You do realize that if you took 100% of the income from the top 2%, it still wouldn't cover Obama's deficit, let alone put a single dollar toward the national debt?
It shouldn't cover *everything* but at least *a part* !

Like Microcredits work towards poorer people. Oops.


And by the way, being totally *against* it makes it look as if these top 2% have something to hide …


Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
The most basic of instincts is survival, which is kinda my point here.
Yes, but Greed is a part f it.

Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction. (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
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January 3rd, 2012, 15:35
@Dart- seems we're still talking about the same thing. You're aiming more at the bloodless coup direction while I'm thinking more along the lines of Libya (I don't actually subscribe to the full scope of Grandpa dte's Fallout-esque prediction), but it's a revolution either way. Either way, you're wadding our current financial system and throwing it in the hopper and it will be done at gunpoint.

Now, one might wonder if your prediction is tainted with wishful thinking since chucking the current financial system is a rather tall order but a necessary precursor for your utopian masterplan.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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January 4th, 2012, 09:29
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
@Dart- seems we're still talking about the same thing. You're aiming more at the bloodless coup direction while I'm thinking more along the lines of Libya (I don't actually subscribe to the full scope of Grandpa dte's Fallout-esque prediction), but it's a revolution either way. Either way, you're wadding our current financial system and throwing it in the hopper and it will be done at gunpoint.

Now, one might wonder if your prediction is tainted with wishful thinking since chucking the current financial system is a rather tall order but a necessary precursor for your utopian masterplan.
I'm not sure what you mean by the same thing?

I don't think I've ever supported a coup - bloodless or otherwise. If you're referring to my sexy and divine masterplan, that would work on a volunteer basis.

As for this financial recession thing, I'm not including my plan in my thoughts about it.

I don't think for a second the current financial system will be chucked - I'm just saying that if the debts can't be paid, the civilised world will have issues far larger than not getting their illusionary money back. So, they'll have to forfeit the debts all-round - or come up with some kind of alternative. Maybe put the system "on hold" until the worst is over - and refine it for future posterity. Which would be a joke to me, but still.

As I said, to feel entitled about this is moronic - and sticking with a debt for the sake of the system isn't necessarily what you want to do when you're facing a major global crisis. Not that I'm utterly convinced or anything, but it's just an obvious avenue if it all goes to shit.

It's like people are forgetting that the debt is made up of imaginary resources.

The resources are still there.
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January 4th, 2012, 09:55
Originally Posted by zahratustra View Post
Nothing short of asking every US citizen to fork out $48,538.02 (as of today) would deal with national debt.
I 'd love to see Luxembourgian government asking every Lux citizen to pay $3.400.000 , or the Irish to ask citizens pay $520.000 .
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January 5th, 2012, 02:39
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
I might be crazy, but I'm factually right, which is more than you can say. You're welcome to try to shout me down if it makes you feel better, though.
Listen I said Democrats would likely give into big cuts if Republicans would offer a 2% increase on the wealthy. You completely ignored all the points of my post to make a smartass comment about taking 100% from the top 2% not even covering the deficit. The entire point I was trying to make is no progress being made and no compromise is making things worse and nothing is getting done. Both sides are guilty of this. I was simply throwing out ideas on how the two parties could compromise.

Oh and I don't need to shout you down. You're an idiot. You keep on posting. But if you don't want me to keep on calling you stupid or crazy, you're going to have to start reading my entire posts and replying to them instead of taking one piece out of context and replying to it. Have a nice day.
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January 5th, 2012, 04:32
Dude, you're embarassing yourself. Allow me to requote your "ideas":
I'm sure the Democrats would give the Republicans large cuts if they raised taxes on the wealthy 2 percent. Hell you could set it up so the 2 percent goes towards the debt and nothing else, then cut the 2 percent when a significant portion of the debt is paid off to boost the economy. Sure the economy would take a small hit short term but at least we'd be making the necessary changes to get the debt paid off. The longer we wait the bigger the problems become. Long term we'll be in a much worse place.
I bolded the part that's utter nonsense, just in case you missed it. I take your idea, expand it well beyond your plan to give you every advantage, and it's still got exactly zero chance of achieving the goal you've set. I offered you factual information for exactly why it's utter nonsense, which is both relevant to your "ideas" as well as the broader issue. The best you've got is additional namecalling. At least give me a challenge, champ.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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January 7th, 2012, 07:32
Did you miss the sentence before it that mentions big cuts? You must be messing with me or trolling because there is no way someone could be this stupid. I was talking about a compromise of giving a tax increase and making cuts to the government. Then when the debt was paid off cut the tax increase.

Your post has nothing to do with what I was talking about. You misinterpreted my post and assumed I was only talking about a tax increase. I wasn't and the main subject of my post was compromise and progress between the two parties to get something done. If things stay this way and nothing gets done the problem gets worse.
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January 28th, 2012, 15:23
A German-language article on the topic of defraudation of taxes in Italy : http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soz…811486,00.html
Done not only by millionaires, but by almost everyone !

A quote from there (translated by me) :

"Because a lot paid too few or nothing at all, those who couldn't protect themselves from the grip of the state, no matter whether Fiat worker [Fiat is a car building company] or elementary school teacher, had to pay more and more."

I think this is why the loads of taxes in the U.S. are probably so high . Because no-one pays enough - in general. and that includes Millionaires, because they usually have the best lawyers who can work out the best tricks to elude paying taxes …

And when defraudation of taxes becomes a kind of mass sport, then everyone is suffering from it !

Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction. (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
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February 23rd, 2012, 21:39
Found a new word today :

"Dimocracy".

Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction. (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
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