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Default In China a 2-Year-Old was Ran Over Twice & No One Helped Her

October 18th, 2011, 09:07
In these events you aren't thinking things rationally, you just act on herd mentality. Acting includes doing nothing. The bystander effect is a social effect. One first see how others react and assume that someone will. When no one does one assumes not acting is the right thing to do (it's assumed every else have a good reason). External factors like thinking about consequences doesn't come in.

The same behavior can be studied in all nations, cultures, religions and you can easily set up your own experiment to test this in your hometown.

Making people act against the herd requires a lot of training or a neurological disorder, it's not the norm anywhere.

Sorry, explaining this by looking at China is just stupid. Thats like explaining why Italians eat icecream in the summer by looking at Italian food culture.

That said, doing so is a well studied bias known as the Actor-Observer effect. We have instant access to our perceived self and ingroup and can easily disqualify claims about yourself or your group. We don't with another. Thus we judge others differently, usually we judge them on their character in the time they act. We judge ourself and our own group on circumstances.

The right thing to do is to learn how humans act and the circumstances rather than begin by looking whats different in the character/group from your own.

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Last edited by JemyM; October 18th, 2011 at 09:22.
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October 18th, 2011, 09:12
I would actually have thought something like this is more likely in the west. AFAIK, partly due to the one-child policy, children are actually more "important" in chinese society than in our own. On the other hand, I suppose the barriers to acting as an individual and braking out of group mentality might be somewhat higher in some asian societies that emphasize the community over the individual.
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October 18th, 2011, 09:20
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
Sorry, explaining this by looking at China is just stupid. Thats like explaining why Italians eat icecream in the summer by looking at Italian food culture.
Its equally stupid to say that cultures are not different. Theres plenty of evidence against that if you look at history.

Communism, lack of rights, lack of justice, mass population, etc chinese culture has all the things to make something like this happen.

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October 18th, 2011, 09:52
Originally Posted by zakhal View Post
Its equally stupid to say that cultures are not different. Theres plenty of evidence against that if you look at history.

Communism, lack of rights, lack of justice, mass population, etc chinese culture has all the things to make something like this happen.
All your arguments point at the result of long-term consequences of conscious thought on a situation that happen in an instant without time to think. I shouldnt have to point this out to you as it's not a hard concept to grasp.

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October 18th, 2011, 10:06
A disgusting and deplorable story, which I've just seen on the local news here.
The lack of initiative and empathy from passerbys was just astounding. The drivers better be charged with the full force of the law for their gross negligence.

Psychologists can refer to this idea of "diffusion of responsibility" and whatnot, but for me, we are human first and foremost and it's a just fundamental failure of humanism and individual morality to walk past something like that and not act.

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October 18th, 2011, 10:11
Originally Posted by GhanBuriGhan View Post
AFAIK, partly due to the one-child policy, children are actually more "important" in chinese society than in our own.
Male children yes. Females… no.

The preference for males is so strong in China that women have been known to have multiple "selective abortions" until they conceive a male child.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti…lus-males.html
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October 18th, 2011, 10:14
Originally Posted by GhanBuriGhan View Post
I would actually have thought something like this is more likely in the west. AFAIK, partly due to the one-child policy, children are actually more "important" in chinese society than in our own.
Girls are still not as important though (edit: like JDR already mentioned), which is kind of sickening, there's a big shortage of girls in China, they have something like 30 million more men than women i think i read somewhere (in marriageable age). They have tons of old people now because of the one-child policy and it's very hard to find workers, especially since you get a pension at 50 there. Very strange and irrational regime, not sure what they're thinking with that 1 child policy.
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October 18th, 2011, 10:18
That is starting to change a lot these days. It is becoming more and more popular to keep the female children. The population is also starting to even out more and more so the male overpopulation is decreasing. Also the common people in china help each other a lot more than we do in the western world!

I don't really think it is a bystander effect either, as already mentioned in china if you stop to help someone you could be accused of causing their death and be sued for a lot of money. Also if the person driving the car would have stopped, stepped out and tried to save the little girl, he would have been caught by police and get a serious punishment ( in other words get his entire life ruined ).

It is not long ago a person drove over a man, and went out of the car to stab him to death before escaping, because if he was found out he'd not need to pay medical bills for the rest of that persons life.

This kind of things keep happening in china, rich people driving around in cars, not caring what they hit, and escaping…. try finding a person in a country with 1.3 billion people…… besides if you're not rich enough to afford a car and have to walk on the road… how much could you be worth? this kind of thinking is really sick and is becoming a huge problem.
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October 18th, 2011, 10:25
Originally Posted by Pessimeister View Post
The lack of initiative and empathy from passerbys was just astounding.
It have nothing to do with empathy.

Originally Posted by Pessimeister View Post
Psychologists can refer to this idea of "diffusion of responsibility" and whatnot
Feel free to replace what you said to "A methodical and empirical study of the phenomenon known as the "Bystander Effect" has shown…"

Originally Posted by Pessimeister View Post
but for me, we are human first and foremost and it's a just fundamental failure of humanism and individual morality to walk past something like that and not act.
In your head that's probably everything. In reality your judgement equals to about zero. There are research in Social Psychology on why "heroes" act when the majority do not. There are also research that show how people who believe they will do the right thing when they are in that situation do not.

Now let me be the first to point out the hypocrisy between speaking about "failure of humanism" and argue that the present people lacks empathy.

Mankind must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind. - John F Kennedy
An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind. - Mahatma Gandhi
The world is my country. To do good is my religion. My mind is my own church. This simple creed is all we need to enjoy peace on earth. - Thomas Paine
Last edited by JemyM; October 18th, 2011 at 10:46.
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October 18th, 2011, 10:34
I have been in two situations in my life that were very different but involved the bystander effect: nothing nearly as terrible as this story, just being a passerby as people got hassled by others. I adimit that there is a very high barrier to intervene in that moment. There is a lot going on in your head: Is the situation really what I think it is? Am I making a fool of myself if I intervene? Do I risk putting myself in danger? The person getting hassled looks drunk, is he victim or did he start it. Would it be better to get help or to intervene? Will someone help me if I do intervene? Will anybody blame me if I don't intervene? Its a bit of an overload.
In one case I did intervene, in the other I did not.
Now intervening in a fight is certainly different than helping a child, but stilll I imagine similar things could be going on in peoples minds.
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October 18th, 2011, 10:35
People are not thinking this through in such a situation, and if you think it's about gender or any kind of agenda - you're kidding yourself.

It's the simple matter of not wanting to get involved, because you don't want the responsibility and you're not used to such a situation. It's an unknown quantity - and it's incredibly common to shy away from that. People are not sure they're up to the task, and they'd rather let that stop them - than save a human life.

We all do it on a daily basis, only in a less overt manner. It's why we don't help people suffering all over the world. The "justification" part is bullshit and has nothing to do with the real reason, which is that we just can't be bothered.

It's universal.
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October 18th, 2011, 11:37
I feel I should say something here, but I can't debate this issue with anyone. It's too horrifying to even contemplate. So instead I'll leave you with this question and a story.

You're walking down the road and see a bleeding child in the middle of it. The girl is plainly hurt and needs help. There is no doubt about it. There is no second guessing that without help this child will die. What do you do?

Now the story about when I had an accident in Taiwan:

I was driving up a mountain on a two lane road when I came to a hard right bend in the road. The scooter slipped on some oil and I went down hard. I was feeling pretty good that morning and was going up the mountain really quickly. After the crash I managed to limp to the side of the road. No sooner did I get there when a very nice man stopped his scooter and pulled my bike to the side of the road. When I could speak again, I got the wind knocked out of me, I thanked him and started to get back on my bike. I was shaking and clearly distressed over this. He waited till I started my scooter and then followed for a bit. I was going pretty slow because I was shook up. Then after following for a bit he drove past me, waved and was on his way to wherever he was going.

This, my friends, is what any normal human being would do. This is what I would do, this is what you would do. This is what almost anyone with one ounce of empathy would do.

No more words from me. I just thought I'd leave you with something a bit more positive from this side of the ocean. Not everyone is as cruel or heartless as those seventeen people who walked by or those people in those vehicles. Most of the people I have met are the eighteenth person who cried out for help.

Despite all my rage.
I'm still just a rat in a cage.
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October 18th, 2011, 11:43
People are not thinking this through in such a situation, and if you think it's about gender or any kind of agenda - you're kidding yourself.

It's the simple matter of not wanting to get involved, because you don't want the responsibility and you're not used to such a situation. It's an unknown quantity - and it's incredibly common to shy away from that. People are not sure they're up to the task, and they'd rather let that stop them - than save a human life.

We all do it on a daily basis, only in a less overt manner. It's why we don't help people suffering all over the world. The "justification" part is bullshit and has nothing to do with the real reason, which is that we just can't be bothered.

It's universal.
Fortunately I disagree with you. Most humans would help. I've seen a lot of time people falling down or tripping, getting hurt or whatever in Sweden. They immediately get a lot of help. Even during a knife stabbing I have experienced it.

A ten year girl was run over in Sweden, a man immediately risked his own life by stopping cars coming at high speed ( who were not able to spot the girl ) to make sure she wasn't run-over again. If a fire-truck or police car with blinking lights comes cars will drive to the side, even if they take a risk doing so to allow the emergency cars to move on. This is NOT the case in china. It really is a big difference in attitude.

Also there was a poor women who helped the girl, she worked with collecting rags and cooking food for very little salary… when she yelled for assistance the much richer shop owners just told her sorry we can't help? doesn't that say something? If it was just a the bystander effect. It would come to pass after the "shock" was over and the woman already took care of the girl and EVEN asked someone for help who refused. That is very different from just standing idle.

It is also worth to note that one driver DID actually turn himself in and the other was caught. So the one who turned himself in also had a consciousness.
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October 18th, 2011, 11:51
Originally Posted by skavenhorde View Post
I feel I should say something here, but I can't debate this issue with anyone. It's too horrifying to even contemplate. So instead I'll leave you with this question and a story.
Yes, I have helped people and I have been helped. Many times. This is what we should all strive for, no matter what we are from. Just wanted to say that trying to understand is not the same as excusing or approving. That's all. I just hope and pray that when I get into such a situation I act in a way I can live with later on. I think so, but there are reasons not to be 100% sure.
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October 18th, 2011, 11:53
In my homestreet a finn was stabbed just few months ago by a foreign immigrant. People went instantly to see if he needed help (well some women started to scream) but it was too late. Infact my coworker was one of the first there.

Also Ive seen i.e drug user falling to the ground and people crowding over him and asking for doctor (one doctor was actually nearby).

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October 18th, 2011, 11:53
Originally Posted by GothicGothicness View Post
Fortunately I disagree with you. Most humans would help. I've seen a lot of time people falling down or tripping, getting hurt or whatever in Sweden. They immediately get a lot of help. Even during a knife stabbing I have experienced it.

A ten year girl was run over in Sweden, a man immediately risked his own life by stopping cars coming at high speed ( who were not able to spot the girl ) to make sure she wasn't run-over again. If a fire-truck or police car with blinking lights comes cars will drive to the side, even if they take a risk doing so to allow the emergency cars to move on. This is NOT the case in china. It really is a big difference in attitude.

Also there was a poor women who helped the girl, she worked with collecting rags and cooking food for very little salary… when she yelled for assistance the much richer shop owners just told her sorry we can't help? doesn't that say something? If it was just a the bystander effect. It would come to pass after the "shock" was over and the woman already took care of the girl and EVEN asked someone for help who refused. That is very different from just standing idle.
You misunderstand.

I'm not saying no one will help, I'm saying it's very, very common to NOT help in such a situation as the one in question.

If you think the "majority" would help in that scenario - then I have to say you're deluded. But it doesn't take the majority for a single person to step up. Even if only 1 in 10 would help, you'd see someone taking action.

It's not about it being China - it's about human beings that are afraid of the unknown and taking responsibility in a situation that's chaotic and hard to deal with.

It's not about not wanting to help, but not being able to overcome the trepidation.

A soldier, for instance, would almost always help another soldier in a potentially life-threatening situation - because they're trained for such things, and it's not an unknown quantity.

Soldiers aren't "better people" - they're just more familiar with such situations.
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October 18th, 2011, 11:58
As someone said, it is a cultural thing in some countries where human life is worthless - just like in this girl's case. Instead of thinking to do the right thing or even image if that girl was their daughter, they switched to selfishness and fear. Maybe if someone paid some of these bystanders, they would have done something - because money is more precious and more important to these bystanders than even their life.
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October 18th, 2011, 12:00
Originally Posted by GothicGothicness View Post
Fortunately I disagree with you. Most humans would help. I've seen a lot of time people falling down or tripping, getting hurt or whatever in Sweden
I remember a Swedish television show in which they put it to test and put a robbery in daylight in which an older woman was attacked when she was sitting on a bench on a plaza. They repeated the experiment over and over without anyone reacting.

The gruesomeness of the situation seems to matter. The more out of place and extreme the event the more likely bystanders freeze and see if someone else acts. When no one does they follow the herd (not act).

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October 18th, 2011, 12:01
Its not a chinese thing. Its a thing of chinese culture. And most likely china has multiple subcultures. Many of them which dont have this kind of feature. In the big overpopulated areas this is propably the way of things. In some distant small village? Perhaps not.

Even though america propably has more justice than china Im sure similar things might happen in the biggest most crowded cities like new york. In wrong areas of detroit you can bleed to death on the street and noone will help you. Police will only come to pick the corpses from the street.

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October 18th, 2011, 12:05
Human life is not valued in chinese culture? Come on people, you really are amazing sometimes.
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