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Default Objectivism & the Republican Party?

August 20th, 2012, 23:32
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Allow me to tune that to something that might hit a little closer to home. "You just have to read a bunch of textbooks and then think and you'll come to the right conclusion. IE my conclusion - if you come to some other conclusion, you're obviously intellectually inferior and lack proper enlightenment." Pretty short step between the two, me thinks.
While I agree that tendencies like that exists pretty much everywhere (stronger in some circles, stronger in some individuals) objectivists (IE pepole who buy the whole package from Rand's view on metaphysics and up) are like that almost by design. This is because Rand had a view on knowledge that takes away all the safeguards against arrogance we have - the result is that those who believe in it tends to be as arrogant and dogmatic as they get.

Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
And how does that really differ from the ivory tower intellectual's (or nanny state supporter, for that matter) utter disdain for those that don't blindly worship their textbooks?
Because the pepole she hate are the powerless - if she gets her way they can't defend themselves and they can't outlive the attack. Tax the ritch and they're still ritch. Take away support for the poor and they starve.

Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Allow me to give you an example. One of the guys I work with would charitably be described as "simple folk". He's most certainly not enlightened and couldn't find an ivory tower with a tourguide. In your world, he needs your help because clearly he's too stupid to make his own decisions. He needs your guidance because, being enlightened and supremely educated, you simply know better.
This was pretty much my reaction to that. What you believe of my views of other pepole is quite astounding.

Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Quite amazing that you have the ability to determine something is categorically "wrong" while in the same post admitting that you don't know squat about it.
Not knowing every detail about it isn't the same as knowing nothing about it. I know roughly what the problem with her reasoning is, but if I am to seriously argue against it I don't want to be roughly right.

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August 21st, 2012, 04:32
5 years of your posts makes for a fairly decent picture of just what you're about.

My, selective memory seems to be getting the best of you. We'll skip some of your more grand pronouncements of right, wrong, and barbaric from various crime-n-punishment discussions, although any of those would, by itself, be sufficient to prove the point. But let's review your most stellar achievement, where you proved beyond a doubt that you're more than willing to make snap judgments on situations of which you know absolutely nothing, based solely on your supposedly enlightened thinking and the arrogant belief that somehow you know best for others.

Remember telling me that I was a bad parent? Remember even going so far as to say that my children would be permanently damaged due to my parenting? You know next-to-nothing about me, so you're in no position to judge, but we'll forgive you that since internet discussions entail a bit of leeway with personal attacks. You're not a parent, so you have absolutely zero practical knowledge of the subject you're so quick to make grand pronouncements on. You couldn't pick my kids out of lineup, let alone have the slightest idea of their psychological makeup, which makes you completely unqualified to make any judgments of their situation. But you knew best and were more than happy to condemn me from your position of "greater wisdom".

Need I go any further?

Oh, and while we're at it, as relates to that specific discussion, you're still very welcome to kiss my bare white ass before vigorously fucking yourself, you arrogant jackoff.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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August 21st, 2012, 06:49
Looks like someone had a bad day at the office!!

Oh, and on parenting Ubs: Most so called academic experts would totally disagree with how I raised my totally well adjusted, hard working, never been in trouble kids. If you don't believe me, ask several people here who regularly play online with my son!!

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August 21st, 2012, 09:57
Originally Posted by rossrjensen View Post
Care to substantiate your claim?
I wouldn't mind - but if I do it right, it's going to be exhaustive. I'm not sure I have the stamina right now.

But the short version is that when people put personal gain as their focus in life without societal restrictions - there will be a lot of people who will suffer from the inequality of our division of resources and the cards being dealt in early life.

Even if you're fine with people suffering because of the minority having access to the majority of resources (not unlike modern society) - it's key to understand that power and money are fickle concepts. Basically, a poor person is no less powerful than a rich person - unless we agree to that.

But there's a real and tangible power based on human capacity - and as such, the vast majority will eventually rebel against the tiny minority - simply because they can and because they don't want to suffer without reason.
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August 21st, 2012, 14:26
Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
Looks like someone had a bad day at the office!!

Oh, and on parenting Ubs: Most so called academic experts would totally disagree with how I raised my totally well adjusted, hard working, never been in trouble kids. If you don't believe me, ask several people here who regularly play online with my son!!
Actually, I wasn't in a bad mood at all. I found his claim of innocence, complete with snarky video clip, to be utterly ludicrous given the easily referenced posting history. That he'd even attempt to float that balloon either screams disingenuous or perhaps pathological.

As for my parting shot, he's lucky on that day that he had internet anonymity and a large body of water to hide behind. As any actual parent would understand, for attacking my kids like he did, I would have happily beaten him senseless with his impressive ivory tower studies before introducing them to his colon.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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August 21st, 2012, 14:30
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Actually, I wasn't in a bad mood at all. I found his claim of innocence, complete with snarky video clip, to be utterly ludicrous given the easily referenced posting history. That he'd even attempt to float that balloon either screams disingenuous or perhaps pathological.

As for my parting shot, he's lucky on that day that he had internet anonymity and a large body of water to hide behind. As any actual parent would understand, for attacking my kids like he did, I would have happily beaten him senseless with his impressive ivory tower studies before introducing them to his colon.
Attacking your children?

Talk about overreacting based on internet exchanges.

I know you're not that stupid.
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August 21st, 2012, 14:46
Re-read the thread before making baseless insults, DArt.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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August 21st, 2012, 18:31
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Remember even going so far as to say that my children would be permanently damaged due to my parenting?
Well, based on what I know about you, your children are blue muppets. I can see how that can be interpreted as "permanent damage".

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August 21st, 2012, 18:46
Fair enough, JemyM, fair enough.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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August 21st, 2012, 19:41
DTE, no one attacked your children or your parenting as I remember correctly. We corrected you back then, and you seem to forget.

You overreacted then, to a general claim about parenting. It was you that arrogantly pushed your parenting skills to the forefront, bragging about your skillz. If anyone is to blame for your feelings, it is yourself, not U.
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August 21st, 2012, 21:15
Re-read the thread and get back to me, champ. Your memory fails you. Trust me, it made an impression.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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August 21st, 2012, 21:45
I'm sure it made an impression on you back then since you still seem carry the misconception. Show me specially where someone called you a bad parent before you started bragging about your wonderful parenting skills, hmmm?
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August 21st, 2012, 23:34
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
5 years of your posts makes for a fairly decent picture of just what you're about.
Five years of reading in things into my posts that weren't there, apparently. Let's take a look at your assumptions of my view on your examle:

Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Allow me to give you an example. One of the guys I work with would charitably be described as "simple folk". He's most certainly not enlightened and couldn't find an ivory tower with a tourguide. In your world, he needs your help because clearly he's too stupid to make his own decisions. He needs your guidance because, being enlightened and supremely educated, you simply know better.
According to you I don't think this guy is capable of taking care of himself. You think I know better than him how to live his life. And that without me making his decisions for him he's doomed. You assume this is a conclusion I'll come to after having seen a description that comes down to "he's simple". From those three words you think I'll have him all figured out, knowing exactly what he wants way better than he does himself.

Five years of posting history and you still haven't realized I'm not that stupid.

Take mind that you're talking to a guy who hates drugs, thinks no one should ever do drugs and who wants to legalize drugs out of desire not to dismiss the expeiences and choices of those who decide to do drugs.

Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
But let's review your most stellar achievement, where you proved beyond a doubt that you're more than willing to make snap judgments on situations of which you know absolutely nothing, based solely on your supposedly enlightened thinking and the arrogant belief that somehow you know best for others.
Since you apparently didn't read my last post to the end I'll quote myself from there:

Originally Posted by Ubereil View Post
Not knowing every detail about it isn't the same as knowing nothing about it. I know roughly what the problem with her reasoning is, but if I am to seriously argue against it I don't want to be roughly right.
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Remember telling me that I was a bad parent? Remember even going so far as to say that my children would be permanently damaged due to my parenting?
So that's where the shoe's clamping? That's not really the way I remember it though. The way I remember it is that I claimed spanking is harmful to children and that most of the research on the matter backs me up on that claim. What followed was that you went from 0 to 100 in about a second flat. With that in mind I found (and still find) it understandable that you failed to see that I never actually called anyone in general or you in particular a bad parent. Anger does that to us - suddenly everything seems like an assault on our person.

First of all, I take care not to judge pepole. I do judge behavior, but I avoid judging pepole. So even if it were to be so that you beat your kids senseless with a baseball bat on a regular basis I wouldn't call you a bad parent - I'd merely call the beating bad parenting. This, I've found, helps keeping away prejudice. Because a label usually says a lot more than it's supposed to. Take alcoholism: I've read about how one of the most common things say when they ask about joining AA is whether they really need to go to the meetings. Because they know they have problems, but they're not real alcoholics. Oh no, they've got a family and a job and they pay their bills and generally hold their lives together quite decently. Alcoholics aren't like that, ergo they're not alcoholics.

Which brings me to my next point, which is that there are a lot of aspects to parenting. You need to provide them with food and clothing, you need to provide a safe environment for them to live in, you need to help them learn how the world works, you need to teach them how to deal with other pepole and so on. You don't have to get every single one of these aspects perfectly right to raise a well-adjusted kid. Doing so help, but get most of it right and your kid will probably end up mostly fine.

The research on corporal punishment of children doesn't claim that it will turn every single child that's subjected to it into a wreck. What it does claim is that it risks leading to increased anxiety and increased aggression. And that it risks leading to the kids losing respect for the parents, and thus leads to them being less inclined to listen to them.

Subjecting your children to this risk might lead to negative long term effects. Then again, maybe it doesn't. Maybe the rest of your parenting is good enough that these negative long term effects are healed, and that the corporal punishment therefore didn't really matter. There haven't really been any studies that have shown benefits of corporal punishment though, so harmful or not, the risk is unnecessary.

But your not a bad parent because you've subjected your children to unnecessary risks. You're merely not a perfect parent (and that's not very insulting, since perfect parents don't exist). Pointing out that there are things in your parenting you could have done better isn't saying you've done a poor job either, it's merely saying you could have done a better job (I'd even say it's saying you could, in theory, have done a better job).

Besides, the point of these claims isn't to make judgements on an individual level, because commenting on individuals are highly uncertain. Instead, it's about commenting on groups of pepole, where the differences between individuals gravitate towards an average. It might be so that your kids actually benefitted a little from you using corporal punishment. But statistics show that most parents won't be able to use it, and there's no real way of knowing if you're one of the parents who can (all parents who use corporal punishment think they're one of those who can balance it properly, most are wrong).

Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
Oh, and on parenting Ubs: Most so called academic experts would totally disagree with how I raised my totally well adjusted, hard working, never been in trouble kids. If you don't believe me, ask several people here who regularly play online with my son!!
Like I said, making calls when it comes to individuals is difficult - lots of external factors need to be taken into the calculation. Maybe you were lucky enough to only get dandelion children who could go through your strict parenting without taking too much harm, maybe academic experts would see a lot less wrong with your child raising than you give them credit for.

It's hard to tell. Especially since I know hardly anything about your kids and hardly anything about your parenting.

But it's easy to pat yourself on the back for doing a good job when you don't know how your children would have turned out had you listened to the advice those academic experts.

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August 22nd, 2012, 00:50
Originally Posted by rossrjensen View Post
Rand was an influential writer, why would it be surprising that her thoughts influenced a member or members of a political party, particularly Republicans?

As for Bioshock, it drew inspiration from Ayn Rand's work, but it wasn't really criticizing it. Remember who the real villain turned out to be — a person Rand would have characterized as a looter. In Atlas Shrugged, society crumbles because of the meddling of looters too.
Surely Bioshock was critical of that philosophy. Andrew Ryan still was a villian, was he not ready to burn the entire city to ash and looting could be seen as explotation of workers too, no?. I would say that Bioshock took a full on view of this philosphy and all the players (victors/victims) that arise in it. Bioshock 2 which is often overlooked took a look at the opposing view of collectivism. In the end both games offer solutions/endgames that basically have you somewhat championing and rebutting those philosphies which in the end is what any sane person should do.

Too many preach and follow narrow minded idealogies and just because some folks cherrypick the tentants they follow whether it be religion or eco/socionomic models doesn't make them any less idealogues.

you can't get much more of an example of this than paul ryan. and while this isn't necessarily a bad thing especially in the "free" market where his convictions could be tested, this inflexible type usually does more harm than good when in politics/government and he is a career politician without doubt.

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August 22nd, 2012, 00:57
"But it's easy to pat yourself on the back for doing a good job when you don't know how your children would have turned out had you listened to the advice those academic experts.

Übereil"

Oh, but I do. I see those results on the TV news every night and it's not pretty to watch I assure you!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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August 22nd, 2012, 04:02
Nice wall of text, and yet you still manage to completely duck taking responsibility for the actual action that caused the ruckus in the first place. I couldn't give two shits if you call me a bad parent. While that will probably lead to some rather heated conversation since you lack any practical experience in the matter and have absolutely zero first-hand knowledge of the situation, that's perfectly within bounds in my book.

When you start making broad accusations about the psychological makeup of my children, whom you know exactly nothing about and have no practical knowledge to work from, then you cross a line, even for a nice anonymous internet forum. I even pointed out to you 3 times that you were crossing a line, but you chose to continue on down that road because you knew best. That's where you fucked up royally, as I told you then and as I'm repeating to you now. You're more than welcome to say what you like about me—I'm a big boy and I've made the choice to participate in these discussions. Go after my family under the arrogant pretense of supposedly knowing what's best for me and mine better than I do, and you'd better thank your lucky stars that we're not face-to-face. Quite simple, really.

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August 22nd, 2012, 04:20
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
When you start making broad accusations about the psychological makeup of my children, whom you know exactly nothing about and have no practical knowledge to work from, then you cross a line, even for a nice anonymous internet forum. I even pointed out to you 3 times that you were crossing a line, but you chose to continue on down that road because you knew best.
When did Uberiel "start making broad accusations about the psychological makeup of my (your) children," DTE? I can't see one example, much less three…
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August 22nd, 2012, 11:08
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Nice wall of text, and yet you still manage to completely duck taking responsibility for the actual action that caused the ruckus in the first place. I couldn't give two shits if you call me a bad parent. While that will probably lead to some rather heated conversation since you lack any practical experience in the matter and have absolutely zero first-hand knowledge of the situation, that's perfectly within bounds in my book.

When you start making broad accusations about the psychological makeup of my children, whom you know exactly nothing about and have no practical knowledge to work from, then you cross a line, even for a nice anonymous internet forum. I even pointed out to you 3 times that you were crossing a line, but you chose to continue on down that road because you knew best. That's where you fucked up royally, as I told you then and as I'm repeating to you now. You're more than welcome to say what you like about me—I'm a big boy and I've made the choice to participate in these discussions. Go after my family under the arrogant pretense of supposedly knowing what's best for me and mine better than I do, and you'd better thank your lucky stars that we're not face-to-face. Quite simple, really.
Oh, come on with the drama.

You're here every day beating your chest about ivory towers and how your simpleton approach to life and morality is so much more grounded and based on real experience.

You're setting yourself up for some serious criticism and anything said about your children will be based on how you present yourself. They're not affected in any way whatsoever - and I can give you my personal guarentee that strangers make sweeping judgments about each other on a daily basis, and so do you.

You might not consider it "good form" to speak plainly about how you think parents affect their children - to their face - but there's not a single shred of doubt that you're the sort of person to make these judgments, just like everyone else does. In fact, you seem more likely to make uninformed judgments based on your posting history - and yes, you have one as well which gives a pretty good picture of who you are.

Your children aren't under attack - they're perfectly safe. No one here would ever do anything to bring them harm. YOU might be "under attack" if you consider criticism related to your person an attack - but that's hardly a reason to go nuts.

If you can't handle comments about how your personality might affect those close to you, then shut up and stay out of Polics & Religion. You're being a whining baby - unwilling to take your own medicine.
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August 22nd, 2012, 19:21
You guys really are dense sometimes. Let me make one more attempt. And let's be clear right up front that saying something like this as part of a real conversation would be completely out of bounds.

DArt, you're an asshole.
DArt, your wife's a whore.

I have some knowledge of you based on your post history and you're here to defend yourself. Plus, you've volunteered to participate in this conversation so you've implicitly accepted a certain level of "abuse". Thus, the first sentence, while rather rude, would come from informed opinion and could be refuted directly by the person "insulted", who has voluntarily put themselves in the public sphere. (for the record, I don't think you're an asshole)

I don't know your wife (actually, I don't even know if you have one, which amplifies the point). I know absolutely nothing about her. Thus, the second sentence cannot possibly come from informed opinion is and therefore a blind attack. Additionally, your wife has not volunteered to participate in this conversation. She's not available to defend herself, and she has not volunteered to place herself in the public sphere.

If you can't see the difference between the two, and why a different reaction is justified, I don't know what to tell you.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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August 22nd, 2012, 19:51
Except that Ubereil, never said anything bad about your children (nor your wife for that matter). You've really fallen off the strawman cliff again.
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