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December 1st, 2011, 21:50
Originally Posted by zahratustra View Post
"Amnesty International has called for the US to stop sentencing juveniles to life in prison without parole.
More than 2,500 adults are in US jails for crimes committed as a child - under current rules they will never be freed.
In its new report, Amnesty says the practice is incompatible with the basic principles of juvenile justice.
The US and Somalia are the only two countries not to have ratified a UN convention that bans life in jail without parole for under-18 year olds."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-15956225
As a proud liberal, while this is concerning you are so worried about the bandaid you, like most conservatives (as I can only gather from the title), ignore the source.

Bad parenting. Sadly DSS has been crippled over the years by 'small govt' minded right wingers that short of mass murder is very difficult in common sense situations (not all however) for them to act. My solution?

1. If you are in HS and get pregnant MANDATORY parenting classes AFTER school, not during.
2. Give DSS the funding it needs to address reports in a timely fashion
3. If a report is filed on you and evidence is found to be true see #1 but replace after school with after work.
4. MANDATORY health and sex ed classes (that teach contraception) in both middle and HS

If that was done perhaps some of there 14yr olds committing murder and such would get the proper guidance they so clearly lack. Am I saying ALL these issues will be fixed? No. However it would be a big step in the correct direction rather then taking a reactive stance and worry about punishment, be pro-active and try to avoid a child getting to that point to start with.

I know, that crazy liberal talk…

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December 1st, 2011, 21:53
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
You build on the assumption that the difference between being able to follow a law or not is whether you can quote the law or not. Human beings doesn't work that way. What matters is how an individual subjectively perceive the world and how the mind that perceive the world has developed.
Not so. In the case of people under 18 being tried as adults, I don't give two hoots whether they know the law or not. The only way such a case happens is for violent crime. That's it. I don't care if you're dumb, whether you can quote the law, whether you demonstrate some subjective grade we call maturity, whether your upbringing sucks…whatever excuse you care to throw out there. Violent crime is a basic thing. Even with highly subjective morality, you simply don't find any societies that promote violent crime within their citizenries. None. We can call it "wrong" or "bad" or "not condusive to a functioning society" or "Bob"—whatever makes you happy, but there's a global, fundamental stance against violent crime. Thus, everyone everywhere knows from an extremely young age.
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
Three forces here are autonomy, relatedness and personal constructs. We all have personal constructs in how we grasp the world and our relationship with our world is pretty much based on these constructs. The older you are, the more constructs you have and the wider is your perception. Abstract thought begin to form in the early teens and continue to form after that. What a teenager do not have is autonomy, their framework of subjective consciousness is very narrow, it's their school, their family, classmates etc. At this age they are pretty much shoved around by adults. That's where relatedness comes in. Teenagers are pretty much living within the adults of their lives and their classmates. They usually have no choice in going anywhere else. They have very little control over their lives. Whoever is in their surroundings are people they relate to in some way or another.
This would be fine for "higher level" issues, say cheating on your taxes, but really isn't applicable to something as basic as violent crime.
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
Due to the way our society works, 18 is usually an age where society decides an individual is autonomous. That means that their world suddenly becomes much larger. They have to form their own relationships, they engage in new places, they pick courses at the university or jobs, they get their own place to live, they have to take care of themselves.
Yep, arbitrary decision based on cultural mores. Kinda make the argument "Our arbitrary decision based on our cultural mores is right and your arbitrary decision based on completely different cultural mores is barbaric" seem a little silly, doesn't it?
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
The difference between how these two tick in their consciousness are pretty huge. The teenager is very much a flipper ball where as the young adult floats on the ocean and have to paddle somewhere to get somewhere.

This is why teenagers aren't in their capacity to control their actions, their frame of reference is very limited, ultimately in the hands of their environment. Therefore it's also a very high chance something will go wrong. It's also why the environment is more responsible at that age than when they get older.
OK, but even you said "18 is usually an age", so you're already agreeing that the line is fuzzy and varies from culture to culture. So to then turn around and get snotty because someone else draws that fuzzy line in a different place is just plain silly.

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December 1st, 2011, 21:56
Originally Posted by Harlequin View Post
I know, that crazy liberal talk…
Or set basic expectations of behavior and then encourage people to take responsibility for their own actions or face defined consequences. Then the problem doesn't happen in the first place and government doesn't have to get involved.

I know, that crazy conservative talk…

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December 1st, 2011, 22:02
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
DTE, do you think that capital punishment while more necessary than European style measures is no consequence? WOW! Not making much sense, there DTE.
As you know from many discussions we've had, but apparently would rather ignore so you can toss an insult, I think capital punishment is an excellent consequence but our implementation of capital punishment (20 years to happen, thereby losing the linkage to the crime, and more worry about the criminal's pain and suffering than was ever given to the real victims) doesn't have the desired impact.

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December 1st, 2011, 22:05
Being stuck in prison for 20 years is of no consequence? I guess if your life was seriously bad, that my be the case. But it sure doesn't seem the norm. I find it odd that conservatives think these criminals actually like being in prison.
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December 1st, 2011, 22:57
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Wider availability of weapons combined with a culture that removes all consequences for bad decisions and discards the concept of personal accountability.
Do you have any evidence whatsoever that there's less of that in American culture compared to Western European culture? Because I'm fairly certain the consequences are harsher in America than here in Europe, since we've got a wider and more generous social safety net, more humane prisons and milder sentences for crimes. In fact, I believe the whole "personal accountability" idea is rooted more firmly in America than here in Europe.

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December 2nd, 2011, 02:04
Originally Posted by blatantninja View Post
Comparing us to Somalia just because of one data point, is like bringing Hitler into an argument.
Ah, but this thread deals with a very specific subject with this one data point at its center.

Originally Posted by blatantninja View Post
Why don't you try answer the question. Why should a 17 yo 1 day short of his/her 18th birthday be treated different that an 18 yo 1 day after?
Why can't "17 yo 1 day short of his/her 18th birthday" vote, buy alcohol, lottery tickets or consent to most forms of medical treatment while "an 18 yo 1 day after" can?
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December 2nd, 2011, 03:09
Originally Posted by zahratustra View Post
Why can't "17 yo 1 day short of his/her 18th birthday" vote, buy alcohol, lottery tickets or consent to most forms of medical treatment while "an 18 yo 1 day after" can?
That's still not an answer. Imagine that.

To answer your question (just for fun)… because of an arbitrary legal construct which can and has been changed as cultural mores change. As a shining example, the drinking age you reference is no longer 18, but 21. It was changed to reflect changing cultural mores. Thanks for helping me out.

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December 2nd, 2011, 03:17
Originally Posted by Ubereil View Post
Do you have any evidence whatsoever that there's less of that in American culture compared to Western European culture? Because I'm fairly certain the consequences are harsher in America than here in Europe, since we've got a wider and more generous social safety net, more humane prisons and milder sentences for crimes. In fact, I believe the whole "personal accountability" idea is rooted more firmly in America than here in Europe.
Purely observational, although I expect you wouldn't be able to supply anything concrete to the contrary. I'd have serious misgivings about the validity of any studies anyway given that academia has a liberal agenda (and were instrumental in getting us in the mess we're in today), but I doubt there's anything "solid" to worry about.

As for personal accountability, it used to be firmly rooted in the US. With the breakdown of discipline and the move toward "everybody's a winner", both spearheaded by liberals, it's just about gone. Steady decline there, perfectly matched with a steady increase in violent crime…you do the math.

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December 2nd, 2011, 04:23
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
To answer your question (just for fun)… because of an arbitrary legal construct which can and has been changed as cultural mores change.
So is Emancipation Proclamation, Voting Rights Act of 1965, 19th Amendment to the Constitution or any law you care to mention. And 18 just happens to be the age which signatories of UN Convention on the Rights of the Child agreed upon as a borderline between juvenile and adult. Except USA. Oh and Somalia
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December 2nd, 2011, 04:44
Shall I call the Euros barbarians for letting juveniles drink? No, because it's just a different set of cultural mores. I respect your choices, even if they don't match mine and seem rather destructive. You might try doing the same. You lefties just need to be a little more respectful and understanding of differing cultures. Maybe it's just a lack of education on your part.

If the best you've got is, "cuz the UN says so", I can't say I'm surprised that you're ducking bn's question and my offshoots of his question repeatedly.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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December 2nd, 2011, 07:36
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
I'd have serious misgivings about the validity of any studies anyway given that academia has a liberal agenda (and were instrumental in getting us in the mess we're in today)
That is a self-handicapping thought-stopping cliché. There are some support for the theory that a cognitive bias against cognitive development is so damaging to a person that it can be seen as a mental disease in itself. How person makes up excuses not to develop their knowledge due to an identitity-based bias is actually my primary field.

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The world is my country. To do good is my religion. My mind is my own church. This simple creed is all we need to enjoy peace on earth. - Thomas Paine
Last edited by JemyM; December 2nd, 2011 at 07:48.
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December 2nd, 2011, 07:59
There is also a great deal of support for the idea that people who live in ivory towers need to rejoin the REAL world!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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December 2nd, 2011, 08:30
Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
There is also a great deal of support for the idea that people who live in ivory towers need to rejoin the REAL world!!
And it's commonly held by people who believe their personal anecdotes are as valid as thorough research.

Most people do not have a habit of challenging what they see as self-evident, natural, logic and obvious. Confirmation bias is the habit to only see what supports what we believe. So people with glasses are social awkward nerds, women are weak and niggers do all the crime. The thing with critical thinking is knowing how our minds play tricks on us and why methodological research is so important to challenge what we think we know. Convincing oneself that people who do this kind of research do not know the world as well as I do, is one of the most classic identity-serving self-crippling biases out there.

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The world is my country. To do good is my religion. My mind is my own church. This simple creed is all we need to enjoy peace on earth. - Thomas Paine
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December 2nd, 2011, 09:12
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Violent crime is a basic thing. Even with highly subjective morality, you simply don't find any societies that promote violent crime within their citizenries. None.
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
We can call it "wrong" or "bad" or "not condusive to a functioning society" or "Bob"—whatever makes you happy, but there's a global, fundamental stance against violent crime. Thus, everyone everywhere knows from an extremely young age.
I have seen many games and movies that promote violent crime directly. But violence is a reaction, not the sum of a cognitive calculation.

The amount of crime is a stable number. It isn't that random. This means that crime prevention methods can be seen in statistics.

Countries with few or no systems to prevent violent crimes from happening before they happen, such as those who believe a written law is all it takes, tend to have a lot more violent crimes than the rest of the world.

That's a decision. In most cases where it's decided that the society is best served by methods that are proven to not work, the decision is taken by ideas such as "the academia have a liberal agenda" or other identity-serving biases.

Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
This would be fine for "higher level" issues, say cheating on your taxes, but really isn't applicable to something as basic as violent crime.
Yep, arbitrary decision based on cultural mores. Kinda make the argument "Our arbitrary decision based on our cultural mores is right and your arbitrary decision based on completely different cultural mores is barbaric" seem a little silly, doesn't it?
OK, but even you said "18 is usually an age", so you're already agreeing that the line is fuzzy and varies from culture to culture. So to then turn around and get snotty because someone else draws that fuzzy line in a different place is just plain silly.
The ages are both culture-bound and not. Like I said, the setting is a framework for cognitive development although cognitive development is a system within itself.

Abstract thinking begins at around 12 in western cultures, perhaps as a consequence for being educated in a culture that promotes thinking and give a child the tools (education spoonfeds experience). This mind continue to grow but will ultimately work within the cultural frame which just so happens usually means "school, family, close friends" up to the age of ~18.

Research done on non-western countries have shown that some skills develops faster and other skills slower depending on cultural framework and what kind of insight is promoted by the culture.

But the mind is the system that interacts with this environment. Some people grasps things faster than others. Some people interpret the information in radically different ways (disorders). Some are forced to early on skip out on the system. Some are promoted to always be within the system. Some are encouraged to think outside the box. But all of these variations eventually end up in a deterministic and solid value based on probability theory that keeps itself solidly attached to how the society as a whole treats people within a certain age.

Ideas such as "people who are 18 are adults" thus become very important not only for juridical thinking but also cognitive development.

Which is also why it's important for a culture to be consistent. If the system treats people below the age of 18 as non-adults they also have to be treated as non-adults through and through, because treating a 18 year-old as a non-adult have a huge impact on how their cognition tick.

I once heard an American anthropologist speak about how one of the greatest problems with the US was the fuzziness around what it means to be an adult. Many European countries have a very solid transition in which people are told that at a specific day they will be treated as an adult and they have to act accordingly. This gives the mind a new frame to work with.

So yeah, its important to have a special day for it and it might actually have more real impact to it than it might seem.

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December 2nd, 2011, 14:42
Originally Posted by zahratustra View Post
Ah, but this thread deals with a very specific subject with this one data point at its center.
And its still a BS comparison. Solamia doesn't have a functioning government, much less a functioning legal syste,.


Why can't "17 yo 1 day short of his/her 18th birthday" vote, buy alcohol, lottery tickets or consent to most forms of medical treatment while "an 18 yo 1 day after" can?
Well, I certainly don't agree with those restrictions either (though FYI you can't buy alcohol until 21), but it doesn't really matter. Those are restrictions on things you'd like to do. We're talking about punishment for crimes to where the person may constitute a future danger to society. It affects far more than just the person in question.

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December 2nd, 2011, 15:12
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
That is a self-handicapping thought-stopping cliché. There are some support for the theory that a cognitive bias against cognitive development is so damaging to a person that it can be seen as a mental disease in itself. How person makes up excuses not to develop their knowledge due to an identitity-based bias is actually my primary field.
No, that is basic human nature. Why would you expect the ivory tower to admit that they really screwed the pooch with their wars on discipline and failure? You think having a stack of textbooks somehow makes you more likely to admit that you sunk your professional life into something that totally backfired? C'mon. Particularly given the incredibly fuzzy nature of psychology, it's easy to hide behind impressive theories when the results simply don't hold up. I believe the common phrase for that is "foxes guarding the henhouse", but you probably won't find that in your textbooks.

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December 2nd, 2011, 16:50
Originally Posted by blatantninja View Post
And its still a BS comparison. Solamia doesn't have a functioning government, much less a functioning legal system.
Indeed, Somalis have a good excuse. What's USA's?

Originally Posted by blatantninja View Post
Well, I certainly don't agree with those restrictions either (though FYI you can't buy alcohol until 21), but it doesn't really matter. Those are restrictions on things you'd like to do. We're talking about punishment for crimes to where the person may constitute a future danger to society. It affects far more than just the person in question.
Jeez Louise! Parole Boards were created to assess if prisoner can or can't be released. "No possibility of parole", no Parole Board review capisci?
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December 2nd, 2011, 16:55
Yet another post where you dodge the questions, Z. Why is that, I wonder.

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December 2nd, 2011, 18:28
Funny that this would pop up now. The guy's a comedian and he's intentionally going over the top, but it actually does a nice job summing up the problem.
http://www.eonline.com/news/adam_car…_street/278076

"There's something that's come up in this country that didn't use to exist, which is envy. And it's a big issue," Carolla said in the sit-down. "It was understood back in the day, and we are empowering, we're now dealing with the first wave of participation trophy, my own fecal matter doesn't stink, empowered, I feel so f—king good about myself, everyone's a winner, there's no losers, we're dealing with the first wave of those f—king a—holes."
We've created a bunch of f—king self-entitled monsters," Carolla, a father of two in his own right, snarked. "'I want my Most Valuable Player trophy.' 'Well, you're the slowest, fattest guy on the team.' 'Why should he get one and I don't get one?' 'Because he busts his ass and he runs a 4.4 40. That's why he gets one.' 'Well, this is bulls—t.' And then everyone gets involved and everyone gives everyone a participation trophy and then everyone feels good about themselves but it's not based on anything."

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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