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Default Skyrim - Miscellaneous Roundup

December 9th, 2011, 13:40
Originally Posted by Harlequin View Post
Jeff Vogel embodies everything that is wrong with the current mentality of CRPG bloggers and community. "I want it easy" "I don't want to be challenged" "by gods I have to use my brain to do 101 level math? How horrible". Seriously? If you don't want to use your brain go play a FPS. And stop advocating the dumbing down of RPGs. What a idiotic, amature comment from someone who clearly cut their teeth on CRPGs playing DA2 odds are. If not he should be ashamed of himself.
You really haven't heard of any of Jeff Vogel's games before?
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December 9th, 2011, 14:31
I'd actually prefer a more realistic inventory to an even less realistic one. Thats something specific to TES however - for me these are more fantasy world simulators than classic games, and I like such simulations to be realistic or rather internally consistent - within certain boundaries of course. In other games I am however not bothered by limitless inventories, so I know where you're coming from. Though there were moments in Gothic when I browsed the food items in my pack which amounted to the equivalent of a decent size botanic garden's herbarium, and stopped to think: "where do you put all this, oh nameless one?" (Especially considering how ridiculously oversized a lot of the items looked when NO ate them…
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December 9th, 2011, 14:50
It seems with every new mainstream RPG, we will have to tolerate newcomers who have decided it's time they enlighten RPG veterans, tell them what's what and direct RPG developers in the right direction; a dirction which they have discovered the first day they played their first RPG.
Reminds me of the teen who give relationship lessons to their elders and parents, the day they lose their virginity.

Inventory management is an essential part of most role playing games. It's about decision, choice and consequence: pick this and you lose that, pick that and you lose another thing, pick both and you'll have to walk. The fundamental idea behind role playing is that you can't have everything at the same time. That's why RPGs are different from action games. Not to mention that today even action games have inventory management of a kind. For example in most shooters you must decide which weapon to carry and which weapon to leave behind. Halo, CoD, BF3, they all have that trend.

But I too have a problem with Skyrim's inventory management, and it's not about inventory, it's about Speech!
Skyrim removes the basic persuasion mini-game of previous TES games, which means you can't try to negotiate with every single NPC in the game. There are very few opportunities to persuade/bribe/intimidate someone, which means skill progression will be super slow. In order to correct this, they have combined Speech and Barter skills and made them a single skill, Speech. This means in order to raise your speech skill and be able to successfully persuade/intimidate people, you'll have to raise your speech skill by selling tons of items to shopkeepers. Which means Skyrim actually forces you to be a pack rat in order to be able to persuade people!!!
WTH is that?
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December 9th, 2011, 14:56
Of course, it's much better when the one elder who disagrees with the other elders - is telling the children what's what.

Good one

I've been playing these games for nearly 30 years - and I think there's more than one "good" way to handle inventory weight limits.
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December 9th, 2011, 15:26
I agree with blackcanopus that Speech is handled badly in Skyrim and combining Haggle and Persuasion doesn't make much sense but in any case, in a game where 90% are meaningless filler fetch/kill quests, the Speech skill plays a minor role anyway, so little is lost.

About the inventory, I always considered it to be an absurd and unrealistic concept although I understand it is just a gameplay mechanic. But I always wondered where Morte in PS:T put his stuff .

I would love to see a new system where the concept of inventory is completely revised where you can only take items which you can physically carry and make them visible on you characters. E.g., you can only carry one set of clothing/armor and carry a limited amount of weapons. (I like the way how you can see several weapons on your character in The Witcher 1). The impact of making choices would then be larger.
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December 9th, 2011, 16:19
The Gothics are a bad comparison because mostly the player manipulative things were weapons/shields, potions, and potions-stuff. There weren't miscellaneous things like pots and pans and plates and there were only a handful of sets of player armor in the entire game. Apparently armor bonds to the wearer and becomes non-removable except for you or something. And then it wasn't really worth your while to sell stuff because there wasn't really much worth buying. I remember carting around scores of weapons by the end and wondering why I was still bothering to collect them.
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December 9th, 2011, 16:22
Yet The Witcher 1/2 had one of the worst inventory systems I've ever seen. I like the limits in TES, though I do everything in my power to circumvent them

To the person who lamented the loss of feather and burden, both capabilities are still in the game, just nerfed. Increase Carry Weight is an alchemy potion and can be enchanted on items also. I'm not sure if there is a spell for it though. Ravage Stamina is another potion and it causes the burden effect.

I'm sure magic will get some loving from the mod community though, because magic use isn't quite as easy as it used to be. For my destruction mage to be able to compete at higher levels, I must also be a good enchanter and a great potion maker. I like this challenge, but some people won't. Destruction damage can only be addressed by potions. With a good potion I can double the damage of every spell, 60 seconds at a time. I must also enchant my robes and armor so that spells are cast at much lesser cost. A single firestorm can wipe the mana of a lowly mage, but I can spam it if I have the right gear

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December 9th, 2011, 16:42
Originally Posted by wolfgrimdark View Post
Wow what a bunch of pack rats you all are lol :-) and to think I use to consider people around here hard core. Haven't weight limits been in RPGs for like forever?

I like weight limits - helps me organize and prioritize and is just a tad more realistic.

Seriously though - I almost never reach the limits. I just ignore most crap and stick to the key things. Course that may be why I also find the gold balanced in the game because I don't expect to haul a dump truck load of crap around in my back pocket.
The limitless inventory isn't the strongest aspect of gothic games. Most rpg games have inventory limit and for a reason. I know its not exactly 100% realistic, but without any limit it would feel quite silly. Plus getting rich becomes a cakewalk.

I don't really get what the guy is bitching about. It isn't that hard to priorize. I only pick up small items like jewelry, robes, alchemy ingredients, potions, scrolls, books, smithing ingredients and so forth. Weapons and armors are only worth of picking up if they are some way unique or better than I'm carrying. Most weapons and armors are junk.

And there are always companions when you need more carrying space. For example if i know that i'm going to raid bunch of bandit lairs in the near future, I take Lydia with me. After clearing the front yard from mobs I park her near the dungeon entrance watching my back while I wrech havoc. When I'm done I get lydia and we'll begin looting the place.
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December 9th, 2011, 18:16
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Of course, it's much better when the one elder who disagrees with the other elders - is telling the children what's what.

Good one

I've been playing these games for nearly 30 years - and I think there's more than one "good" way to handle inventory weight limits.
The first part of my comment was not specifically targeted at the big guy's blog post, it was quite a general comment and figure speech. I wouldn't want to offend the big and mighty Vogel. I was merely pointing out that we will see a lot of these articles and conclusions and they don't mean a damned thing.
Yet again, I most confess that the elder's blog post looks a lot like that of newbie.
==Edit==
I must add that if Vogen really believes in what he says, he should have used a better inventory system in his games. Spiderweb games may have some strengths, but messy inventory with both space-limit and weight-limit and terrible loot system is one of their flaws. He could have criticized another developer's work only if he had not made the same mistake and even worse, before. That was a very immature and amateurish blogpost, either made by a teen who manages Vogen's blogs in his stead (and has absolutely no idea about Vogen's games and their inventory system), or a very drunk and sleepy Vogen. It's always so easy criticizing other peoples works, you know.
Last edited by blackcanopus; December 9th, 2011 at 19:02.
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December 9th, 2011, 18:19
Originally Posted by blackcanopus View Post
The first part of my comment was figure speech, I wouldn't want to offend the big and mighty Vogel. I was merely pointing out that we will see a lot of these articles and conclusions and they don't mean a damned thing.
Well, that last part I can probably agree with
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December 9th, 2011, 18:19
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
I agree with him on encumbrance. The Gothic series had it right - no weight limit, no inventory size limit, bottomless pockets.
I recently finished a back-to-back playthrough of G1 and G2 NotR. I do enjoy not having to worry about inventory limits in those games.

However, G1 and G2 are as much an adventure (think King's Quest) game as they are CRPGs. So it makes sense to allow a limitless inventory because you never know what object you might need for a quest. I always kept my limited quantities of molerat fat throughout my entire playthroughs of both G1 and G2 because I was sure, eventually, there'd be a use for it… though I never did find a use for it in either game.

But with TES games I also appreciate the limited inventory. Because TES games are far less structured and much more random compared with G1 and G2. As such, it makes sense to have the tension of inventory limits in the game. Do I really need to grab that armor? Do I really need another one of those bows? I think TES games would really go out of whack with a limitless inventory. Just my 2 cents.

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December 9th, 2011, 18:57
Originally Posted by TheMadGamer View Post
I always kept my limited quantities of molerat fat throughout my entire playthroughs of both G1 and G2 because I was sure, eventually, there'd be a use for it… though I never did find a use for it in either game.
There actually is use for it in G2 .
You need it to turn the winch to get into a certain secret still.
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December 9th, 2011, 19:04
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Well, that last part I can probably agree with
Sorry DArtagnan, I didn't see your last post. I edited my post before I saw yours.
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December 9th, 2011, 19:11
Originally Posted by DeepO View Post
There actually is use for it in G2 .
You need it to turn the winch to get into a certain secret still.
Ugggh really? Would you mind posting more details about this would love to check it out…

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December 9th, 2011, 19:13
Originally Posted by DPB View Post
You really haven't heard of any of Jeff Vogel's games before?
Looks like a poorly made Ultima clone rip off to me. Unimpressed.

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December 9th, 2011, 19:15
Originally Posted by blackcanopus View Post
Yet again, I most confess that the elder's blog post looks a lot like that of newbie.
I think the rpg crowd is more diverse than for other genres. Some people are after an escapism that requires things others find tedious to deepen the illusion of a realistic world. I think labeling it a hardcore/newbie dichotomy is unfair, because it can just as easily be labelled more obsessive/less obsessive. Skyrim tries to straddle a wide fence, and people on either side wish it would just jump off on their side. I don't think it can be argued either way is right, or that either way is even elder. As I get older, I want more and more of my time back that game's spend managing the illusion (and making you "earn" things, but that is another topic).
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December 9th, 2011, 19:26
Originally Posted by TheMadGamer View Post
Ugggh really? Would you mind posting more details about this would love to check it out…
On this map, itīs the third cave left from the troll, itīs near one of those NotR-related stone circles.
But you probably have been there already - if you try to turn the winch, you get noted itīs stuck, but if you have molerat fat with you, itīs likely you just turn the winch and the fat gets removed from inventory without notice.
Last edited by DeepO; December 9th, 2011 at 19:37.
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December 9th, 2011, 19:26
Originally Posted by Burress View Post
I think the rpg crowd is more diverse than for other genres.
Could be right.

If so, it would prove again how wrong Bioware is/was in their attempt to find a new audience.

“ Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in the opposite direction.“ (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
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December 9th, 2011, 20:02
Peronsally, as long at there are Vogel's around and people like him, designing crpg's, I'll keep buying what they sell. They hit at the core of what makes a good rpg. They actually GET it.


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December 9th, 2011, 20:07
Originally Posted by Burress View Post
I don't think it can be argued either way is right, or that either way is even elder.
I think you may be right, but the problem is that in this case, the critic and the developer are on the same side. If having weight limit in an RPG is a flaw, Spiderweb's games suffer from the same flaw. Spiderweb games have a weight limit, and a space limit as well, which is even more restrictive than that of TES games. Now, don't you think it's very unfair that someone who creates much restrictive titles, criticizes another title with a much less restrictive nature?
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