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Default Shocking truth about copy protection?

October 19th, 2006, 03:30
Hey I just found out and didn't see it posted here but if you remove your Dvd after your first loaded game, then make a New Savegame without the Dvd, Load Times are about 5 x faster. :yay:
Any saves you make without the Dvd in the Drive will load at super sonic speeds, well faster anyway.

Turns out that copy protection is having a major effect on the game, apparently JoWood makes up there own protection and apparently does NOT test it.



Btw really love the new site, well with the Dark skin.
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October 19th, 2006, 04:18
Thanks for that, I'll give it a try later today and hopefully confirm this!!

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October 19th, 2006, 04:37
Looks like only 1 out of 7 had no effect, so odds are good,
I actually got this off the Official Tech Support, since so many problems I though I would see how they are handling all these problems at JoWood.
http://forum.jowood.com/showthread.php?t=125993
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October 19th, 2006, 05:56
Interesting … but not surprising. Morrowind had a similar issue.
I wonder how long that thread survives in the JoWooD forum.
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October 19th, 2006, 09:41
Btw I was kidding alittle with the 5x faster, as you can see in the orginal thread.
On the load of a Hardsave it no longer stalls near the picture of the FireStorm till the one of the Spapper in the water, so it pickup about 40% and on Quicksave about 25%.
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October 19th, 2006, 11:52
Hmm so we need a no DVD patch… Can't they just make copy protection that doesn't screw things up?

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October 19th, 2006, 13:24
It definitely does work, I can attest to that!!

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October 19th, 2006, 14:09
It is sad that TAGES not only does'nt work, but it inferes with the gameplay. Nice going Jowood :/

You can download the german version, install and update it, copy over the english speech pak, and play the game. There is a little more to it than that, but not much. I don't condone piracy, so I'll not say exactly how it is done, but my point is that TAGES is not protecting anything, and is hurting gameplay.
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October 19th, 2006, 15:50
Definitely does not work for me with the German patched version of the game. Took out the DVD after the game had loaded up the first time and couldn't tell a difference in loading times or quicksaving times at all so I doubt it very much that copy protection has anything to do with it.

But then again, I also haven't had any audible or visible drive activity on saving/loading anyway, even if the DVD was in the drive (Plextor PX-130A) so to be honest, I'm not sure what people are talking about who are suggesting that the game is performing multiple CD/DVD checks after start-up or on every save/load even *shrug*.

Maybe those peeps should deactivate Daemon Tools or Alcohol 120% or any other mounting tools that could be interfering with drive activity(?) - Or maybe do the opposite and mount some devices via Daemon Tools because I have several mounted drives myself (w/o letting Daemon Tools run in the background though… I have checked "Leave emulating options enabled" so Daemon Tools itself doesn't need to be running).

Edit: I doubt that this has anything to do with it but during the install, the game adds two items to your system start-up stuff (Run -> msconfig) which are "isuspm" and "issch". Both are Installshield services. If your game works fine after installation and patching, I'd recommend to disable those start-up items since they might be messing with the drives as well. Whatever the hell they are doing, they are definitely not needed in any case so kick them out .

Edit #2: While you're at it (msconfig), also check the 'Services' tab and then check 'Hide all MS services' to get a better view of 3rd party services. If there is a 'SecuROM User Access Service (V7)' listed, then uncheck the entry because it might be that different copy protections don't get along too well. The service is not really needed either even if you have a SecuROM protected game installed. If any other game gives you trouble about missing the CD/DVD then just reactivate the service as needed.
Last edited by Moriendor; October 19th, 2006 at 16:02.
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October 19th, 2006, 16:49
I can also conform no changes in load time for me. I haven't had to big problem with it before, either.

Same time with as without DVD. Atleast what my eye tells me.

And I also can not see any acitiviy to my dvd during load/save of game. So its not something that happened to everyone.
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October 19th, 2006, 17:06
Just tested it once more. The DVD is checked twice. Once when you start up the game and then another time when the game *initially* loads up (the long 2 minute+ load the first time you load the game). If you don't have the DVD in the drive at that point (first load), the game just won't load at all.

However, on quicksaving and regular or quick loading, there is no DVD check as far as I can tell so -once again- I doubt very much that removing the DVD makes any difference and -yes- I have even tried with a "fresh" save when the DVD was removed to make sure that no left-over stuff from save games with the DVD in the drive could interfere. Would have to time it with a stopwatch to be 100% sure, of course, but there sure isn't a tangible difference. Conclusion: I call BS on any claims that the copy protection is messing with people's drives or that it has any effect on save/load times .
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October 19th, 2006, 23:23
We are talking about "while ingame" not initial load times, right?
You must make the Saves without the Dvd in the drive, then while reloading ingame the load times are shortened?
O'well I guess not everyone will get benifit.
Maybe you system is so very fast already, you can't tell the difference.
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October 19th, 2006, 23:47
Über (and game experience-runining, mostly) protection or not, it's been cracked. 6 days after official release. That's SIX days.
So let me raise the question: was it worth ruining the gaming experience for all the people who actually bought the product by employing some crappy protection module that not only slows the game down but also causes major problems? Thought not. Stupid, ignorant PB and JoWood, is what I say. Should have come out with a polished game - albeit later - with zero protection instead, á lá Bethesda, and thousands would have bought it, just like in the case of Oblivion. As things stand now, this franchise is doomed to face yet another downfall. What a waste.

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October 20th, 2006, 01:42
Originally Posted by Acleacius View Post
We are talking about "while ingame" not initial load times, right?
You must make the Saves without the Dvd in the drive, then while reloading ingame the load times are shortened?
O'well I guess not everyone will get benifit.
Maybe you system is so very fast already, you can't tell the difference.
Tried all combinations with and without DVD and no, there was no change in loading times at all (2GB RAM machine). As I said, I doubt that the DVD is even getting touched for the "while ingame" loads or saves whether quick or regular. My DVD drive shows zero activity after the two checks at the game's start and initial load, respectively, are done.
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October 20th, 2006, 01:44
Originally Posted by r3dshift View Post
…by employing some crappy protection module that not only slows the game down but also causes major problems?
Why would you say that? Do you have proof for these claims? How exactly does the copy protection slow the game down and what major problems does it cause? A bullet point list will do. Thanks .
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October 20th, 2006, 02:05
Six days is enough for them to #1 in Germany and #4 in the UK…that's a damn good lead over some games that are cracked before they even ship.

I'm no fan over-zealous copy protection (and I haven't actually noticed anything with G3) but from a commercial point of view, this case has been a success.
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October 20th, 2006, 02:17
It's true Moriendor.
People who bought the game and are now using the NO DVD crack are seeing huge performance gains. Believe it or not the Tages Api, Xprot and custom system really, really are causing many issues for plenty of people.
If you bought the game as I have, you don't deserve to be treated like you are a pirate right out of the gate and be hindered by a crippling protection system.
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October 20th, 2006, 02:55
Originally Posted by Dagar View Post
It's true Moriendor.
People who bought the game and are now using the NO DVD crack are seeing huge performance gains.
That's what they say. Aside from a potentially skewed subjective view (read: people imagining performance gains), we have to take into account that there are plenty of kiddies who just want to boast about their "leet warez underground skillz" by posting that they have obtained a working no DVD crack so they can be the haves and the other kiddies the have nots. These reports are rating very low on the credibility meter IMHO but I'm going to download that crack and test this myself tomorrow. We shall see .

Don't get me wrong. I'm not pro-copy protection. I'm just against rather unfounded claims that the copy protection (be it Tages or StarForce, though I'm actually boycotting StarForce myself because of what they did to Stardock by posting those Torrent links to Gal Civ 2) is messing with people's systems or doing this or doing that. Most of that is grade A bullshit. Why aren't there 1000s of people running around with the $10,000 from the StarForce peeps who offered that sum to anyone who can prove that their hardware was negatively affected by StarForce? Right. No one can prove it. People just repeat the stupid bullshit that they read other places without even having the slightest bit of a clue. Just like people keep bitching about MS or McDonald's but still they all got Windows and they all eat fast food. It's just plain dumb drivel based on hearsay most of the time.

I used to work for a system builder and we also had a repair center for our own PCs and 3rd party brands as well. From my own experience, I can tell you that 95%+ of the systems that our tech guys serviced were screwed up in one way or another. Paranoid idiots who refuse to install SP2 or refuse to download any Windows updates at all, people with 81218787623 viruses and trojans across all drives, false BIOS settings, wrong master/slave settings for drives, wrong jumper settings, thermal paste smeared across the entire board, CPU cooler put on backwards, the list goes on and on.
It's just generally very doubtful when someone complains about issues with a game that the copy protection is at fault. I play tons of original games and have never had a single problem with copy protection in years of gaming (except for the occasional failed original media check but it always worked after a few tries). Plain luck? I don't think so. Gothic III would be the first game that I come across that would benefit from a no-DVD crack as far as the actual game is concerned and not just the initial start-up procedure.
We shall see. I'll be back with numbers and will very gladly eat my words if the no-DVD crack gives me a performance boost .
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October 20th, 2006, 03:31
First impressions from the no-DVD crack before the solid numbers will be posted tomorrow: No change as expected (except that you do indeed not need to have the DVD in the drive… d'oh… ). Still the same save/loading times and I couldn't tell a difference in performance either. And -yes- I did make a "fresh" save with the cracked version and reload that one. Solid numbers (comparison of regular patched EXE vs cracked EXE) coming tomorrow.
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October 20th, 2006, 04:30
I agree that there are plenty of people who do not know how to run and/or maintain a system properly, remove un-needed system hogging services, optimize the startup, etc. Add to that all of the different hardware configurations out there and it becomes impossible for a developer to check their code on all possibilites. Copy protections have vastly different effects on different hardware configurations so yours may be ok but don't write off other people because they are having problems with different configurations.

Tages in FACT has been known to cause frame-rate problems in other games (see Darkstar One).
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