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Default The UK is crumbling

January 27th, 2012, 00:52
Originally Posted by Ubereil View Post
First of all: the problem doesn't seem to be that you take them in, it seems to be that you take them in and then don't deal with them being there. In other words, taking in immigrants isn't a bad idea if done properly (even if they come from impoverished, war-torn, unsuccessful, failed states).

Second of all: Dumping them on their supposed home countries are going to ensure it's their chronic unsolvable problem. That's the selfish part of what I said.

Third of all: who's to deal with these pepole? You or their home country? Well, you probably have more resources you can use to deal with them. Which is why it's your responsibility, not their home country's. Sending them home won't solve the problem, it will just pass it on to someone who doesn't have your capacity when it comes to dealing with it.



What right do we have to deny them? And if we do have the right, why shouldn't we throw out our own criminals as well?

Übereil

No, the real problem is when folks leave crap nations for better ones and they start running their mouths.

They leave their home country and decide their chosen destination isn't all that.

Tough beans is what I say. Nobody made you pull up your roots.
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January 27th, 2012, 06:35
Yeah I know what you mean Markus. Do they think that they are your equals? They should know their place and keep their mouth shut.
Last edited by zahratustra; January 27th, 2012 at 07:02.
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January 27th, 2012, 07:17
Every tenth person in Greece is an illagelal immigrant and more is coming daily. All that does to orderly society is bring it more close to anarchy. Greece is a human dumping place.

Of course you can always "take care of problems" (suit everyone to their needs) but that requires hard cash and money doesnt come from magic wall. Currently EU is going down the shitter so we are having tough time taking care of our own problems allready without creating new ones with mass immigration of uneducated unskilled people.

Im sure immigration will become more popular once we manage to pay our existing debts back and create lots of new cash flows. Beggars cant be choosers.

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January 27th, 2012, 08:57
First : You are not a pariah if you don't follow Merkozy traitors into their adventure to struggle the union for the benefit of their banks
Second: It was Scotland that inherited England .
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January 27th, 2012, 09:00
I had to read twice some of the comments. I couldn't believe some of the opinions of some posters!
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January 27th, 2012, 09:32
Originally Posted by Glyphwright View Post
The concept of citizenship implies a permanent bond to the country, which can only be broken upon the wishes of the person in question.
It's also completely made up, so we might as well replace it with a different concept that isn't so permanent.

Originally Posted by Glyphwright View Post
Responsibility doesn't work that way.
There is a problem (pepole moving around comitting crimes). This is a common problem, meaning it's a problem for all of us in general and none of us in particular, since we might all get exposed to this problem. It's a problem that won't go away unless someone deals with it. Whose responsibility is it?

Well, since it doesn't really affect anyone in particular, it's no one in particular's responsibility. However, it affects everyone in general, so it's everyone in general's responsibility. How to deal with it? Well, here government comes into the picture. After all, government was invented to deal with our common problems. So, it's all our responsibility to deal with it, and we deal with it through government.

Which government? Well, here's the problem: there isn't any common all reaching government. Thus it becomes the responsibility of whoever is nearest. Sort of like how if a baby's drowning in a stream it's the responsibility of whoever happens to wander by to pull it up. There might be some situations where it's ok not to pull it up (if you're not able, for instance). Thus, a really weak government who doesn't have any money at all can't be blamed for relying on others to do it's job. But a country like the UK doesn't have any excuses for passing pepole who needs to be taken care of on to other, less wealthy and developed countries.

Originally Posted by Glyphwright View Post
Unless you're willing to tell me that, seeing as you are at least wealthy enough to own a computer and an internet connection, you believe you are responsible for all the homeless people that exist in the world, because you have the resources to support them. If so, I would like to know the exact number of homeless people currently living in your apartment/house.
Like I said, we don't solve these problems by letting homeless pepole live in our houses, we solve them by paying taxes, and then government use these taxes to provide shelter for homeless pepole. I pay all my taxes (they're not very high, considering I don't have any income, but I'll gladly pay them once I get an income as well).

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January 27th, 2012, 10:21
Originally Posted by Ubereil View Post
It's also completely made up, so we might as well replace it with a different concept that isn't so permanent.

Übereil
You can remove all borders but the only thing that will lead to is even more borders.
Without nations each country would be divided to thousands of small communities each with their own laws and borders. How would that be better?

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January 27th, 2012, 10:22
That Referendum Battle In Full:

Och, so, Cameron, the SNP's in power and we're having a referendum on Scottish independence, just like we said we would.

Oh…oh, yes, of course, jolly good show, what? (Hah! The bumbling fool of a native doesn't realise that opinion polls in Scotland have never shown a majority in favour of independence. Once the vote fails, the Scottish separatist agenda will be completely stymied! We won't need to send in those warships after all.)

Brilliant! Now, let's get planning. So we should let 16 and 17 year olds have the vote in this particular case, because our research shows it'll help us to get all of the angry young disenfranchised men on our side - uh, because logically speaking, a better democracy lets more people vote, and those young people have more say in the future of Scotland than some crusty old men, eh? And let's just go ahead and say that Scots resident in England won't be allowed to vote, because those quislings can't be trusted to vote the right way. And maybe we could include an 'independence-lite' option to confuse the issue and split voters! And use a completely neutral, non-leading question like 'Do you agree with Scotland becoming an independent country?'!

(Ooh, cripes, he seems to have some sort of rude native cunning after all)…I say, Salmond, now, see here, this sort of blatant gerrymandering thing is terribly rum and we're not going to allow it.

What's that? Do you hear that, Scotland? Do you hear how these Thatcherite colonists in Westminster try to control all of our lives and interfere in the Scottish right to freedom, the referendum which we may end up holding, by sheer coincidence, around the date of the 700th anniversary of Robert the Bruce's victory over the English at Bannockburn, a historical event which could never be used by a political party for emotionally manipulative purposes and to stir up nationalist fervour? Is this what those unionist scum want?



(Cont. until 2014.)
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January 27th, 2012, 10:40
Originally Posted by zakhal View Post
You can remove all borders but the only thing that will lead to is even more borders.
Without nations each country would be divided to thousands of small communities each with their own laws and borders. How would that be better?
I'm not proposing we get rid of countries, I propose we stop assuming certain individuals are tied to certain countries.

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January 27th, 2012, 13:04
Originally Posted by Ubereil View Post
To me it seems awfully selfish to think a problem is solved just because it's not affecting you anymore. Which seems to be what "don't let foreign criminals in/throw foreign criminals out" ammounts to - those expressing such ideas seem to think the criminals are a problem only as long as they're committing crimes near them.

Übereil
The problem is that we're never going to solve all the worlds problems. If you've built something nice for yourself, I don't see an issue with setting ground rules for sharing it with someone else rather than just allowing them to come in and trash it.

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January 27th, 2012, 13:18
Originally Posted by blatantninja View Post
The problem is that we're never going to solve all the worlds problems. If you've built something nice for yourself, I don't see an issue with setting ground rules for sharing it with someone else rather than just allowing them to come in and trash it.
In the end we will all be dead. Doesn't mean we should close all hospitals since avoiding it is futile.

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January 27th, 2012, 14:35
Scotland can't go solo, they'd end up hating each other:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UO7Uyjdypfc
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January 27th, 2012, 14:49
Originally Posted by Ubereil View Post
In the end we will all be dead. Doesn't mean we should close all hospitals since avoiding it is futile.

Übereil
Could someone supply the fancy latin for this sort of silliness? It's rather typical—you have a grand utopian plan and have no problem discarding the unfortunate complications supplied by reality if they have the poor manners to conflict with the plan.

We're a tribal animal by nature. I'm sure JemyM has that in a textbook somewhere. So, step 1 of the utopian plan! Eliminate all the tribes! How? Fucking luddites, just do it! Step 2, winning!

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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January 27th, 2012, 14:49
Originally Posted by Ubereil View Post
In the end we will all be dead. Doesn't mean we should close all hospitals since avoiding it is futile.

Übereil
That doesn't even make any sense at all. If I have a nice home, I should be willing to open it to others, but if they don't behave themselves, I should be allowed to kick them out. Follow the rules of the society or GTFO.

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January 27th, 2012, 15:20
@Blatantninja
Fully agree with your theory. But you have to let them in and see if they follow your rules. You don't say "you are coming from that corner of the planet so you are a criminal by nature so you dont get in"
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January 27th, 2012, 15:25
Originally Posted by akarthis View Post
@Blatantninja
Fully agree with your theory. But you have to let them in and see if they follow your rules. You don't say "you are coming from that corner of the planet so you are a criminal by nature so you dont get in"
Yes and no. I agree you can't just say 'no one from country X', but I do think you can say 'ohh you were convicted of a crime, see ya' and if you do get in and commit a subsequent crime 'adios mofo.'

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January 27th, 2012, 15:25
Originally Posted by blatantninja View Post
That doesn't even make any sense at all.
You said it's ok not to attempt to solve a problem because not all problems will be solved anyway. I highlighted the problem with that line of reasoning.

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January 27th, 2012, 16:24
Originally Posted by Ubereil View Post
You said it's ok not to attempt to solve a problem because not all problems will be solved anyway. I highlighted the problem with that line of reasoning.

Übereil
No you either misunderstood or are just threadshitting. I said we can't solve all the world's problems. And we can't. That doesn't mean we shouldn't make reasonable efforts where it is feasible, we should, but ultimately what happens in another country is not our responsibility, it is the responsibility of those that live there. We have a responsibility to our own country and citizens to make life there the best it can be. If that means excluding the trouble makers from other countries that want to immigrate, so be it.

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January 27th, 2012, 16:44
Originally Posted by blatantninja View Post
We have a responsibility to our own country and citizens to make life there the best it can be. If that means excluding the trouble makers from other countries that want to immigrate, so be it.
But why is where you're from so damn important? Why is it perfectly ok to exclude pepole from other countries but not pepole from your own country? Why merely countries, why not states while we're at it? Or counties? Or cities? Commit a crime in Birmingham and you're allowed to visit all of UK, except for Birmingham.

Excluding pepole who don't behave seems somewhat reasonable (you'd have a case, at least). But exluding foreign pepole who don't behave, that's discrimination.

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January 27th, 2012, 17:27
We'd happily exclude ALL people who don't behave, but you keep insisting on rehabilitating them.

Your best argument (which you kinda touch on) is where it's appropriate to draw the tribal lines. While there can be some thought put into it, ultimately that's going to be an arbitrary answer based on the whims of the society at the time. You're welcome to participate in the discussion and you're further welcome to rail against the arbitrary decision a society makes, but you can't really dismiss it.

In this case, since the "laws of the land" are defined for "the nation", it's not really too far a stretch to define the boundaries of the tribe as "the nation".

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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Last edited by dteowner; January 27th, 2012 at 17:29. Reason: added last sentence
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