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Default Article : "Content locusts killed my MMO"

February 2nd, 2012, 20:51
Originally Posted by fadedc View Post
See when it came to group content/leveling I never got any feel for the lore in EQ. The problem was when you just sit in one spot you don't experience the world.
I have read about that before quite a few times… With all the queuing, camping and corpse runs - was there a time for anything else? Sounds to me like it was more of a chat room than the game?
Last edited by zahratustra; February 2nd, 2012 at 21:22.
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February 3rd, 2012, 00:52
I often referred to it as a chat room where you got to periodically kill a monster. The other things that could take a very long time were travel and finding a group. If you started off in town, it could easily take you an hour or more to get somewhere where you could kill stuff, and another hour to find people to kill stuff with. Which meant that if you only had a couple hours to play, you might as well not even bother. At least when travelling from point A to point B though you did get to see more of the world.

Still for all of it's issues, it really did shape the face of gaming and you have to give it credit. It wasn't original by any stretch, it just took the way MUDS worked and gave it a graphical interface. But still almost every modern MMO uses core mechanics which are at their heart very similar to the EQ core mechanics.

Originally Posted by zahratustra View Post
I have read about that before quite a few times… With all the queuing, camping and corpse runs - was there a time for anything else? Sounds to me like it was more of a chat room than the game?
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February 3rd, 2012, 01:30
Don't think that I am dissing EQ faedc. All I am saying is that games (like a lot of other things) have their time and place.
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February 3rd, 2012, 02:11
Absolutely. It's also important to remember that the days of EQ were before the days of facebook and most other popular social networking sites. Once upon a time chatrooms were actually hugely popular and people could spend hours and hours in them. So for many comparing EQ to a chatroom could be more of a selling point then an insult.

Originally Posted by zahratustra View Post
Don't think that I am dissing EQ faedc. All I am saying is that games (like a lot of other things) have their time and place.
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February 3rd, 2012, 13:07
Originally Posted by fadedc View Post
If you started off in town, it could easily take you an hour or more to get somewhere where you could kill stuff, and another hour to find people to kill stuff with.
… And in modern SP games we have "fast travel points" …

To be fair, some RPGs didn't have any far travel at all : OB, Lands Of Lore 1 …

The Elder Scrolls did, though …

“ Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in the opposite direction.“ (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
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February 3rd, 2012, 14:36
EQ had fast travel, but in the early time you had to find a player able to cast Teleport to go somewhere else and that wasn't necessarily easy or cheap to do.

They added binding points later to act as fast travel and remove the player dependency.
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February 3rd, 2012, 22:31
I think it has mostly to do with the online community than anything else. Not everyone was on the internet 12-15 years ago and the online community wasn't as bad as it is now. People have made the community this way. The internet was new everyone was excited to talk to other people over it. Now everyone wants their instant gratification. No one wants to really socialize beyond what's required to complete their group content. Making friends of the internet isn't very interesting. People are sort of jaded. People don't even like working together in PUG battlegrounds.

I also think WoW was just a one hit wonder. There's a reason why no WoW clone has been as successful. Unless someone comes up with a new type of exciting mmo, I think they will all continue not to do very well.
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February 3rd, 2012, 23:28
Funny, 12-15 years ago people on the internet also complained about all the new people on the internet these days and how much better it all was back before that. Try reading up on Usenet and AOL. In reality, I think people just like to complain about things that are different then they grew up with and to remember how great the old days were.

As for the success of WoW clones, well keep in mind that WoW is an EQ clone, and EQ is a MUD clone. That model had been very succesful for a long time, which is why people keep using it.

Originally Posted by Grimlorn View Post
I think it has mostly to do with the online community than anything else. Not everyone was on the internet 12-15 years ago and the online community wasn't as bad as it is now. People have made the community this way. The internet was new everyone was excited to talk to other people over it. Now everyone wants their instant gratification. No one wants to really socialize beyond what's required to complete their group content. Making friends of the internet isn't very interesting. People are sort of jaded. People don't even like working together in PUG battlegrounds.

I also think WoW was just a one hit wonder. There's a reason why no WoW clone has been as successful. Unless someone comes up with a new type of exciting mmo, I think they will all continue not to do very well.
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February 3rd, 2012, 23:33
This evening I had a rather weird thought :

What would be idwal would be an MMORPG software that can be installed on every PC - be it a server or a desktop PC - to form either an peer-to-peer network of servers / or one server and friends deide to use one for a local gameplay - but that also has some built-in tools to let people create their own adventures … Like NWN as an online gaming tool, but on a server basis … One server (be it local or MMO-like) which includes tools for scripting - and maybe for placing own content, too …

This way it would be like … a mixture between modding and self-realization of content … It would bring the game back to the people because they could use it locally - alone or with friends … This would be a … democratic ? approach to the MMORPG genre … But yes, it's already here : With NWN 1 & 2 … But surpringly they both never became MMORPGs in the sense of EQ, WOW, SWG, DDO …

Problem is : No-one would earn money by building such a "tool" …

“ Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in the opposite direction.“ (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
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February 3rd, 2012, 23:35
No, there's definitely a lot less respect online these days. That's not nostalgia talking. People are more introverted and cynical when it comes to social interaction in part due to the sheer vitriol you find everywhere.
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February 4th, 2012, 00:18
Had a thread on how dungeons have changed in WoW. Not only leveling is affected. Many other gameplay elements have been simplified too.
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February 4th, 2012, 01:04
I have to disagree. People haven't changed, and older people complaining about how much more respectful people were in their day is the one thing which has been around since generations before we were born. I've been online since before the web existed, and there were just as many jerks back then as now.

But of course experience is subjective.

Originally Posted by Drithius View Post
No, there's definitely a lot less respect online these days. That's not nostalgia talking. People are more introverted and cynical when it comes to social interaction in part due to the sheer vitriol you find everywhere.
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February 4th, 2012, 01:51
Originally Posted by fadedc View Post
I have to disagree. People haven't changed, and older people complaining about how much more respectful people were in their day is the one thing which has been around since generations before we were born. I've been online since before the web existed, and there were just as many jerks back then as now.

But of course experience is subjective.
No it's different because of the internet. People weren't so quick to act like complete assholes because they could without repercussions. The internet was new to a lot of people and people were excited just to use it for the first time. Now everyone is sort of jaded and while it is a great tool to bring people together around the world to talk and share information, it's just not the same as socializing in person and making friends that way.

I also sort of disagree about the whole mud, EQ, WoW thing. MUDs aren't like MMOs. They are text based games. WoW may be kind of like EQ but it took MMOs in this specific direction and due to its success a lot of MMOs have tried to specifically copy it with a few minor new features but all have pretty much failed because they haven't really stood out or added anything new to the genre. That's why people go back to WoW. They've invested so much time in that game and know how it works, they don't have to learn a new system in a MMO that's pretty much the same as WoW or that sucks.

I kind of doubt the new Titan MMO Blizzard is developing will be as successful as WoW. MMOs kind of suck for the most part. They require subscriptions, they require lots of time, usually require finding a good guild for raiding and/or pvp (this appears very difficult from my experience). It's just a lot of work for little payoff and the fact you have to keep paying monthly for it. I think a lot of people realize that after playing a few MMOs now and aren't going to be interested in playing a new one. Not unless it's somehow actually revolutionary in technology and gameplay and keeps endgame interesting and not boring.
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February 4th, 2012, 02:26
Oh well I do completely agree that the inernet causes otherwise nice and reasonable people to act like complete jerks. I just don't agree that the internet is any worse then it was 10 years ago. It's always been full of vitriol for the very reasons you mention.

As for MUDS and EQ, it's just the basic but important structure that's the same. There was a standard type of MUD back in the day, a way that most of them worked in terms of leveling and monster level vs. player level. EQ basically lifted the way it worked and added a graphical interface. They added stuff certainly, but the basic structure was still the same. Even now games like WoW and SWTOR still use the basic MUD system, they've just added a million things on top of them.

But as you said, WoW is pretty entrenched and polished, so it's hard to justify playing another game that follows that same style if it's not as good. It's not really clear if there is room for more then one MMO following the WoW/EQ/Mud style to be succesful. Although SWToR has supposedly been growing even faster then WoW so who knows. At some point though WoW has to fall and something new will take it's place then. And there are scattered MMOs which do not follow the classic formula and eventually one of them may be a hit as well.

Originally Posted by Grimlorn View Post
No it's different because of the internet. People weren't so quick to act like complete assholes because they could without repercussions. The internet was new to a lot of people and people were excited just to use it for the first time. Now everyone is sort of jaded and while it is a great tool to bring people together around the world to talk and share information, it's just not the same as socializing in person and making friends that way.

I also sort of disagree about the whole mud, EQ, WoW thing. MUDs aren't like MMOs. They are text based games. WoW may be kind of like EQ but it took MMOs in this specific direction and due to its success a lot of MMOs have tried to specifically copy it with a few minor new features but all have pretty much failed because they haven't really stood out or added anything new to the genre. That's why people go back to WoW. They've invested so much time in that game and know how it works, they don't have to learn a new system in a MMO that's pretty much the same as WoW or that sucks.

I kind of doubt the new Titan MMO Blizzard is developing will be as successful as WoW. MMOs kind of suck for the most part. They require subscriptions, they require lots of time, usually require finding a good guild for raiding and/or pvp (this appears very difficult from my experience). It's just a lot of work for little payoff and the fact you have to keep paying monthly for it. I think a lot of people realize that after playing a few MMOs now and aren't going to be interested in playing a new one. Not unless it's somehow actually revolutionary in technology and gameplay and keeps endgame interesting and not boring.
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February 4th, 2012, 03:55
Originally Posted by Grimlorn View Post
People don't even like working together in PUG battlegrounds.
Yes and no. PUG, in immortal words of Forrest Gump, is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get. I have been in many successful PUGs and in many disastrous ones.
Last edited by zahratustra; February 4th, 2012 at 04:12.
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February 4th, 2012, 04:28
Originally Posted by fadedc View Post
Oh well I do completely agree that the inernet causes otherwise nice and reasonable people to act like complete jerks. I just don't agree that the internet is any worse then it was 10 years ago. It's always been full of vitriol for the very reasons you mention.

As for MUDS and EQ, it's just the basic but important structure that's the same. There was a standard type of MUD back in the day, a way that most of them worked in terms of leveling and monster level vs. player level. EQ basically lifted the way it worked and added a graphical interface. They added stuff certainly, but the basic structure was still the same. Even now games like WoW and SWTOR still use the basic MUD system, they've just added a million things on top of them.

But as you said, WoW is pretty entrenched and polished, so it's hard to justify playing another game that follows that same style if it's not as good. It's not really clear if there is room for more then one MMO following the WoW/EQ/Mud style to be succesful. Although SWToR has supposedly been growing even faster then WoW so who knows. At some point though WoW has to fall and something new will take it's place then. And there are scattered MMOs which do not follow the classic formula and eventually one of them may be a hit as well.
From what I'm hearing SWTOR's endgame sucks and the servers are on low except for primetime. It sounds like to me the game will only last 3-6 months before there will only be a handful of servers, similar to WAR. Eventually, WoW will die. I'm just not sure those people will all be flocking to the next big MMO that Blizzard makes. At least not long term. You might see a couple million in sales and interest in the genre, but to keep those subscriptions and keep people interested is going to take something completely new and truly dynamic imo. Not the same old raiding and PvP loot progression. You have to keep people interested in learning a new system and enjoying it. People have little patience for these things these days hence the "dumbing" down of games.

Originally Posted by zahratustra View Post
Yes and no. PUG, in immortal words of Forrest Gump, is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get. I have been in many successful PUGs and in many disastrous ones.
This is true, but in my experience it's more often than not a disaster even if you win. I mean you really need to have good healers, which tends to be lacking usually. Also, if you go up against a premade, it's almost always a disaster. I've only really played WoW, WAR, and Rift though.
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February 4th, 2012, 05:18
Ah, got you now Grimlorn! I was talking about raids. I was never much of a PvPer but my PvPing guildies from AoC had similar experiences to yours.
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February 4th, 2012, 06:39
Originally Posted by Grimlorn View Post
From what I'm hearing SWTOR's endgame sucks and the servers are on low except for primetime. It sounds like to me the game will only last 3-6 months before there will only be a handful of servers, similar to WAR.
Whether or not the endgame of SWTOR "sucks" is very subjective, and there will always be people who think that every game sucks. I certainly know people who enjoy it, but most people (myself included) are not at the endgame yet and can't comment on it.

As for the servers being dead though, that's absolutely not true. As I said, the game has been growing at a faster rate then WoW ever did so it's hardly failing. Too early to tell how well it will sustain that though. Given that you clearly hate MMOs, I think your prediction of the demise of the genre may be more wishful thinking then anything else.
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February 4th, 2012, 18:58
Originally Posted by fadedc View Post
I have to disagree. People haven't changed, and older people complaining about how much more respectful people were in their day is the one thing which has been around since generations before we were born. I've been online since before the web existed, and there were just as many jerks back then as now.

But of course experience is subjective.
I disagree - because I see it expanding the whole society. Right now, police reports say that burglars and other crimonals have become more violent over the last years/decades.

I think it might really span over the whole society.

“ Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in the opposite direction.“ (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
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February 4th, 2012, 19:10
Do you have a source for that? I know that's not true in the United States, here violent crime has been pretty steadily going down.

http://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/pre…stics-for-2010


http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr…r-jan-jun-2011




Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer View Post
I disagree - because I see it expanding the whole society. Rioght now, police reports say that burglars and other crimonals have become more violent over the last years/decades.

I think it might really span over the whole society.
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