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Default Wasteland 2 - Update #6

March 24th, 2012, 22:57
Originally Posted by rune_74 View Post
Mod tools would be great, making fun of NWN tools shows you have a distinct lack of any knowledge of what came from that. Look at the mod tools for the elder scrolls games have done, as well as the fallout games. Silly to hinder that.
Wasn't making fun of the mod tools themselves, merely that the majority of user mods made with them are not good. Thus, I am hoping they don't devote valuable resources to that feature. To illustrate the example have a look at the NWN campaign that shipped with the damned game.
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March 24th, 2012, 23:04
Originally Posted by holeraw View Post
I hope he knows what he's doing when he keeps promising to comply to people's wishes.
What, on this? This is a rather minor design element that they were only just starting to kick around. I mean, I agree with you when it's about core design, but this is exactly the kind of peripheral stuff they can use feedback on, while sticking to their own core vision.
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March 24th, 2012, 23:40
No to any "social" nonsense.

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March 25th, 2012, 00:07
Wow, so much negativity. I for one think everything they pitched sounds great, or at least interesting. I have no problem with the social aspect, so long as it remains optional in case I do not like it. I think modding tools are an absolute imperative, as in do not release an RPG without them! As for everyone who says the they should just keep spending every dollar on more and more content, at some point I think you have to say enough is enough. When the game gets to a sufficient size, I thinks it's perfectly reasonable to start devoting resources to peripheral ideas, otherwise you run the risk of having lots and lots of mediocre content.

Stop panicking. Old school doesn't mean old fashioned. There is plenty of room for modern features.
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March 25th, 2012, 00:26
Originally Posted by Brother None View Post
What, on this? This is a rather minor design element that they were only just starting to kick around. I mean, I agree with you when it's about core design, but this is exactly the kind of peripheral stuff they can use feedback on, while sticking to their own core vision.
Then he stuffed up - don't use it as a promotional bullet-point for the $2M milestone. An update (out of a total of six so far) that offers this as the "reward" for reaching $2M elevates it past a "minor design element they were starting to kick around".

No to social elements, no to multiplayer of any sort. Expand the core game first. $1.5M just isn't that much money to start playing with the periphery.

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March 25th, 2012, 00:34
Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post
Then he stuffed up - don't use it as a promotional bullet-point for the $2M milestone. An update (out of a total of six so far) that offers this as the "reward" for reaching $2M elevates it past a "minor design element they were starting to kick around".
Yup. It was badly handled. What can I say. At least it's going to be removed.
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March 25th, 2012, 00:37
Is it? Didn't have time to browse their forums before going to work this morning. I certainly don't mind them discussing these issues but pledge rewards (or whatever you want to call it) really need to appeal to the core demographic first and foremost.

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March 25th, 2012, 03:13
I really don't read it as a "reward" any more than I read the promise of a Mac version at 1.5 mil as a reward. I think what they're going for is just letting us know what all the extra money will allow them to do. I think that it's a mistake to assume that, if they get 2 million, that all or most of that is going to go into content. I think a million and a half into content is probably just fine, leaving them plenty of money to go into design and peripheral interests. If they want to invest a little money into some social aspect, I have no problem with that, so long as they focus on content first, which I know they will do. I mean, come on—it's Brian Fargo for frak's sake! I think you guys are worrying over nothing.
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March 25th, 2012, 05:47
OK, Brian has stated many times that this is designed to appeal to the hardcore purist, right? I don't claim to speak for all of cRPG fandom but I feel pretty comfortable saying that social elements are not on the hardcore purist's "wish list". I'll lay dollars to donuts "expanded content" or "more dialogue responses" or "an additional critical path through the game" would be preferred. So…shouldn't any spare money go into something like that?

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March 25th, 2012, 09:44
I don't know. I enjoyed classic games like Battletech, Ultima IV, and Legacy of the Ancients even though they didn't contain social elements. It seems like there are a lot better things he could do with the money. By better things, I do not mean full voice acting, cinematics, or tablet versions either.
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March 25th, 2012, 16:03
Maybe. But at the end of the day, it's still his game. And if after all of the areas are designed, all of the dialogue written, and all of the graphics drawn, he wants to get a little freaky with it, he has every right to do so. We're still going to get the game we want; our minds are still going to explode like a blood sausage.
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March 25th, 2012, 20:00
Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post
Is it?
Well, it's going to be put up to a vote. I really don't think it'll pass.
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March 25th, 2012, 22:07
I think a social aspect like being able to send gifts to other players(healing packs etc.) through the ranger station would be kind of neat if you could make it work lore wise, for instance more then one team out there.

I don't think it should be the only way to do things but I don't see it hurting anything.

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March 25th, 2012, 22:39
If the social bit is built into the game as in demon souls and dark souls then i am fine with it. I don't mind. I don't have to use it but i really wouldn't mind. I know the souls games are different and it suits well in those games since the world is crafted around it… but i wouldn't mind the note/gift thing in Wasteland 2.
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March 25th, 2012, 22:50
I was rather wildly searching for the "just kidding"-disclaimer in Brian's mail from the moment I glimpsed the word "social". This so completely goes against everything else I've been told about the project, I really can't see how they could have misjudged the reception this would garner.

What's more, however, this points toward one of the critical dangers inherent in Kickstarter projects: At the time of your pledge, you simply can't know what you're actually going to get in the end. Updates are good, but I'd rather they provided an in-depth design document as the basis of their kickstart, including possible expansions on it and how much extra budget they'd require for them. Then, supporter feedback could be used to decide between those once 100% funding is exceeded.
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March 25th, 2012, 22:50
I don't get how the social aspect works in an offline game that wouldn't be totally abusable and nearly cheating. Most games that I've seen either have a shared inventory like Torchlight to gift items or only give the items on new games. Diablo can do it because the game is online only and there is only one save so I cannot gift an item and then reload and never have lost things or reload and not be able to claim an item since its in another save.

The only harm is opportunity cost of having a programmer spend time on one feature instead of another. Especially one that might be require a lot of infrastructure to design/implement/maintain that is orthogonal to the game. Online/sharing implies servers which means lots more work in my mind. Its this reason I'm not crazy about the MP/sharing aspect.
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March 25th, 2012, 23:41
The social aspect is a dumb design decision. Leaving messages on the ground sounds interesting but it isn't. It spoils the game, even if you don't read a message in Dark Souls you can guess you have to pay attention whenever you see one of those messages laying on the ground 95% of the time. There isn't going to be pvp or coop I think because of it being party based, so why spend money on servers for one dumb feature?

How someone could think this a good idea for a party, turn based combat RPG is beyond me.
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March 26th, 2012, 04:19
Yeah, I think most people just want more content and better content. Raise more than you expect? Hire another scenario designer, writer, battle designer, or programmer.

I'm sure one of these will yield a lot more than the Souls message system.

Sidenote: I LOVE the Souls games. I just don't think the message system fist the tenor of this project that well.
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March 26th, 2012, 07:27
It also made me wonder what else he has bumping around inside his head that he thinks would be good. Facebook timeline integration? Achievements?

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March 26th, 2012, 07:54
Originally Posted by EvilManagedCare View Post
Wasn't making fun of the mod tools themselves, merely that the majority of user mods made with them are not good. Thus, I am hoping they don't devote valuable resources to that feature. To illustrate the example have a look at the NWN campaign that shipped with the damned game.
I point you to neverwinter vault were the majority are good. There still making them. I find your logic faulty. The sp player was crap but hey it was designed as a mp game first. You can find the original script online detailing the true campaign that wasn't made.

As stated before I would rather have them work on content instead of other things but if it doesn't take much time to implement or make go for it. Just don't make the game dependent on the social aspects.

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