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Default If your lover had mental health issues, why wouldnt you get them help?

June 16th, 2012, 16:05
My pet peeve looking at all these broken relationships is that it always seems like people these days seem like a couple of individuals rather than a "couple". When you see someone go down hill becaus ethey lost a job or whatever why not try and help them first before trying to leave them? Are people so selfish these days that they rather looks after themselves than the ones they love? This one case posted below where there is no sign the surgeon who killed his lover and then himself was gettign help. If he had gotten help he would be alove, his lover woudl be alive and he would have continued to save lives.


BUFFALO, N.Y. — In the end, the gifted trauma surgeon widely beloved as a lifesaver turned to violence, killing himself with a gunshot to the head as he was being sought in the fatal shooting of his ex-girlfriend.
A two-day nationwide search for Dr. Timothy Jorden ended when police found his body in thick brush a half-mile from his Lake Erie shoreline home. A neighbor had reported hearing a gunshot from the area on Wednesday morning, and police with dogs found the body, dressed in surgical scrubs, on Friday morning.
Authorities had been looking for Jorden since Wednesday morning, when 33-year-old Jacqueline Wisniewski was found shot to death in a stairwell at the Erie County Medical Center, where they both worked. Friends said Wisniewski was afraid of the 49-year-old Jorden and had broken off their relationship some time ago.


Police said Timothy Jorden killed himself with one shot to the head from the .357 Magnum and didn't leave a suicide note. He had withdrawn large sums of money recently and had given friends gifts.
Police Commissioner Daniel Derenda said Jorden went to the hospital with a shotgun and a .357 Magnum pistol intending to kill Wisniewski because of their breakup. Jorden lured her to the hospital basement, where he shot her five times at point-blank range, Derenda said. He then ran from the hospital and drove home, where surveillance video showed him arriving about 30 minutes later.
Just four minutes later, Jorden is seen leaving the house, down a path to a ravine and disappearing into the woods.
Derenda said Jorden killed himself with one shot to the head from the .357 Magnum and didn't leave a suicide note. He had withdrawn large sums of money recently and had given friends gifts.


As Jorden's tailspin accelerated, friends, neighbors and colleagues painted a picture of a man in decline. Jorden, once 250 pounds and clean-shaven, had lost up to 75 pounds and let his face get scraggly. His neatly manicured lawn got overgrown. He just didn't seem the same; not as "nice" as before, was how neighbor June Dupree put it.
Dupree said she was distraught over what had happened.
"It doesn't make any sense that he did that and that he killed himself," she said. "Oh, my God, it's just terrible. I can't get over it. I'm just about in tears right now."
She said everybody loved Jorden.

"He saved so many lives," she said. "This is what doesn't make sense. There's got to be more to it."
'Incomprehensible event'
At the medical center, staff members were left to mourn the death of a respected administrative assistant and try to fathom how two lives could end this way.
"We are just starting the healing process and trying to cope with an incomprehensible event," said Jody Lomeo, the hospital's chief executive officer.
SWAT teams had spent hours Wednesday searching Jorden's home without success.
On Thursday, neighbor Tom Wrzosek told police he had heard a gunshot from the steep, thick terrain behind Jorden's house the morning before, about 90 minutes after Wisniewski was gunned down at the hospital.
Video: Surgeon suspected of murder found dead (on this page)
Some of her friends told local media outlets that Jorden stalked her after she ended the relationship. One of her friends told WIVB-TV that Wisniewski told her the doctor had put a GPS tracking device in her car and once held her captive in her home for a day and a half, wielding a knife.
A woman who answered the phone listed in the name of Wisniewski's parents said the family would not be commenting.
The Buffalo News reported that Jorden joined the National Guard in high school, went into the Army after graduation and served with the Army's special forces, first as a weapons expert, then as a medic. In those roles, he served in the Caribbean, Japan and Korea.


Jorden earned a medical degree from the University at Buffalo and trained at the Madigan Army Medical Center in Tacoma, Wash. He received his certification from the American Board of Surgery in 2004.
He was honored by various local organizations over the years for his teaching skills and involvement in the Buffalo community.
Dupree said she will try to remember Jorden as a good neighbor and gifted surgeon.
"It's very quiet here today," she said. "It's like everybody is in mourning."
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June 16th, 2012, 20:06
The problem is that all women have mental health issues.
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June 18th, 2012, 01:15
You'd better hope Cm doesn't read that!!

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June 18th, 2012, 01:27
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
The problem is that all women have mental health issues.
I agree Just remember when she says nothing is wrong your doomed.

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June 18th, 2012, 15:34
Originally Posted by Damian Mahadevan View Post
My pet peeve looking at all these broken relationships is that it always seems like people these days seem like a couple of individuals rather than a "couple". When you see someone go down hill becaus ethey lost a job or whatever why not try and help them first before trying to leave them? Are people so selfish these days that they rather looks after themselves than the ones they love? This one case posted below where there is no sign the surgeon who killed his lover and then himself was gettign help. If he had gotten help he would be alove, his lover woudl be alive and he would have continued to save lives.
You make it sound like getting someone help is just a quick phone call away, no problem. It is very difficult to get someone help unless they very specifically want that help. You are also taking for granted a lot of information not presented in your article.

If you think the girlfriend was selfish for wanting to distance herself from a knife wielding maniac…
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June 18th, 2012, 15:52
Originally Posted by CrazyIrish View Post
You make it sound like getting someone help is just a quick phone call away, no problem. It is very difficult to get someone help unless they very specifically want that help. You are also taking for granted a lot of information not presented in your article.

If you think the girlfriend was selfish for wanting to distance herself from a knife wielding maniac…
No i think that it never should have been allowed to get that bad. Confronting people is really important in this case. And somethign is up in the story imo, why would she go back when he has used a knife on her in the past? But it is safe to say he never got the help he needed.
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June 19th, 2012, 05:22
You know maybe i am wrong on the whole situation in that article. The girl was 33 he was 49. Their relationship would have started before that too at maybe when she was 25 and he was 41 almost double her age. Is that normal? I get the feeling that it was a gold digger / dumb ass relationship that went worse than normal.
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June 19th, 2012, 08:12
Relationships rarely work out when there is that much of an age difference, mental issues or not…
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June 19th, 2012, 16:20
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Relationships rarely work out when there is that much of an age difference, mental issues or not…
To be fair they also rarely end in a suicide/homicide. That outcome usually takes a little something extra.
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June 19th, 2012, 17:05
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
The problem is that all women have mental health issues.
When I was in college, we developed what we called the Psycho S rating (will lave off the full S word!) It went from 1 to 5 (later to 7 after one of my relationships). When asked why it didn't start at zero, the response was "Because all women are inherently somewhat psycho.

Along those lines, a good friend of mine had an epiphany in high school. Sadly, it was the probably the peak of his intellectual existence. I'll put it in tags since its not the most polite thing:

Spoiler


On a serious note though, it is extremely difficult to help someone that doesn't want help. My wife has ADHD. Obviously not as serious a condition as what the person in the OP suffered from, but it can take a toll on our marriage at times. When she is on her meds, we rarely have problems, but when she is off for extended times (like the first 6 months after our daughter was born) it can get pretty rough. But when I broach the concept of her taking her meds everyday, she goes off. Tells me she doesn't need them except when she's at work, etc., despite the obvious proof to the contrary.

She is still off her meds almost all the time now, but we've worked through some other ways to deal with it. Personally, I'd prefer if she just popped a pill every day. I don't understand the reluctance, but then again I've never suffered from anything like that.

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June 19th, 2012, 17:14
Originally Posted by Damian Mahadevan View Post
No i think that it never should have been allowed to get that bad. Confronting people is really important in this case. And somethign is up in the story imo, why would she go back when he has used a knife on her in the past? But it is safe to say he never got the help he needed.
You can't help someone that doesn't genuinely want to be helped.

Originally Posted by Damian Mahadevan View Post
You know maybe i am wrong on the whole situation in that article. The girl was 33 he was 49. Their relationship would have started before that too at maybe when she was 25 and he was 41 almost double her age. Is that normal? I get the feeling that it was a gold digger / dumb ass relationship that went worse than normal.
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Relationships rarely work out when there is that much of an age difference, mental issues or not…
I'd disagree. Sadly most relationships fail, regardless of age. It really depends on where people are in their lives more than the age difference. Obviously age difference can make it more likely they are in different places when you have some middle aged guy that can't/won't keep up with a mid-twenties party girl, but I've met more than my fair share of women that were ready to settle down in their mid-20's.

My wife is just under 6 years younger than me. Not so much of an age difference as to raise eyebrows, but still enough. When we met, she was 23 and I was 29. Had she been the typical 23yo, it would never have worked. I tore up my 20's pretty good. I look fondly back on my bachelor days, but by 29, I was really ready to settle down. Most 23yo women are not. She was though, so it worked.

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June 19th, 2012, 19:52
Relationships don't last for the same reasons they always didn't last = rarity of compatible interests, emotions and ways of communicating.

The greater the age difference, the greater the chance of being incompatible in two of those ways - especially with one person being very young.
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June 20th, 2012, 02:21
6 years difference is not the same as 16 years difference… She could have been his daughter…
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June 20th, 2012, 03:01
Originally Posted by CrazyIrish View Post
You make it sound like getting someone help is just a quick phone call away, no problem. It is very difficult to get someone help unless they very specifically want that help.
Very true. Unfortunately, psychosis and mental issues are such a slippery slope that often a person may be "too far gone" to realize they even need the help. There is nothing that could be done unless they check themselves into a mental institution. And trust me, getting an insane person to check themselves into a mental institution is no easy feat.

This is a sad story though. I think government should work to find solutions for people like this. I know it sounds crazy, but I think there should be programs in place for mentally unstable people that requires them to check into a mental hospital for 3 days, aka making it mandatory. If you notice someone has lost 75 pounds and is not being his usual self, call up a clinic that will send someone to speak with the person to see if they need help. If the professional psychiatrist decides this person needs the help, 2 strong guys with a straight jacket jump out of a van and haul his ass away to the clinic. He gets the help he needs (even if it's against his will) and he's out the door in a week. It's like a week vacation that helps the person. I don't know. But the way they do it now is non-effective. There needs to be more safeguards in place to stop things like this from happening.
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June 20th, 2012, 15:49
Originally Posted by Damian Mahadevan View Post
6 years difference is not the same as 16 years difference… She could have been his daughter…
The older you get, the less age difference matters. One of the best relationships I had in my mid 20's was with a woman that was 38. Obviously it didn't last long term, but it was a very good relationship.

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June 21st, 2012, 13:26
I wouldn't say a short-term relationship is the best evidence of success.

Obviously, if one person is very young - then the age difference matters more. Not that it can't work, but it's just rare - in my experience. It's also about culture and "societal norms". Most people are highly influenced by the norms of society - and as such, age is a major factor in many areas of the world.

If both people are past their "adventure" age, then I can see age mattering less - though I'd say it will always matter to some degree.
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June 21st, 2012, 14:29
Interesting discussion to say the least. Guess the guy forgot the oath he took against taking life. Remember the song back in the nineties? "I love you; I'll kill you"

To me, it's all about control. From the little glimpse the media has given us into his life, here we have a lifetime overchiever and hard worker and a hero in his community. This man dedicated his whole life and worked very hard to get where is was. Our culture tells us that we can have anything we want. "Dream big. Visualize and set your goals high. The only obstacle in your life is you. The world is your oyster, " Blah, Blah Blah. "You can have it all" Utter rot to sell out motivational events.

This man forgot that you can't possess a human being. He kidnaped her and held her against his will. She turned him down and he couldn't handle it. His infactuation led to obsession which lead to him loosing enough mental faculties to commit this tragedy.. But as to being insane? He rationally setup the end of his life and hers. He chose this. Somewhere along his educational path, he missed morality 101.

Oh, I forgot. Most schools have stopped teaching that one.
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June 21st, 2012, 17:11
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
The problem is that all women have mental health issues.
Cm did happen to read it.

These news blurbs never try to get all the details, so no telling what other issues he had going in his life. But depression, if that was the diagnosis, makes the person self sabotaging. They hide it most from the very people who could help. They close off from loved ones, and the idea of getting help on their own is often looked at as weakness or embarrassment.

It is the one disease process that effects rational decisions and replaces them with mental walls that keep the cycle going. People who manage to stay functional despite their illness are the ones we read about who "suddenly" loose it.

Unless drugs or a fast growing brain anomaly are to blame…….it was only sudden to the outside world.

Bart and Corwin should just admit that when it gets down to it, I will have the final say.
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June 21st, 2012, 17:17
Yeah, its extremely rare that people 'just snap.' You hear it all the time. You hear it with dog attacks too, and its pretty much the same thing: people just not paying attention.

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June 22nd, 2012, 08:15
Originally Posted by redman5427 View Post
Interesting discussion to say the least. Guess the guy forgot the oath he took against taking life. Remember the song back in the nineties? "I love you; I'll kill you"

To me, it's all about control. From the little glimpse the media has given us into his life, here we have a lifetime overchiever and hard worker and a hero in his community. This man dedicated his whole life and worked very hard to get where is was. Our culture tells us that we can have anything we want. "Dream big. Visualize and set your goals high. The only obstacle in your life is you. The world is your oyster, " Blah, Blah Blah. "You can have it all" Utter rot to sell out motivational events.

This man forgot that you can't possess a human being. He kidnaped her and held her against his will. She turned him down and he couldn't handle it. His infactuation led to obsession which lead to him loosing enough mental faculties to commit this tragedy.. But as to being insane? He rationally setup the end of his life and hers. He chose this. Somewhere along his educational path, he missed morality 101.

Oh, I forgot. Most schools have stopped teaching that one.
When people go "psycho" they tend to lose sight of their morals, even common sense. I tried to kill myself over a memory card for the playstation 2 which was absurd.
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