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July 2nd, 2012, 21:05
Originally Posted by curious View Post
its seems though not surprising that many peoples arguments would lead to a "race to the bottom"
its not that have sexy women in games is a problem its that most games pander to this in place of writing strong female characters. they are NOT mutually exclusive however in practice they almost always are. its the easier route for everyone involved and as we know most people aren't robert frost fans…
Can't agree more curious! Bioware is actually not bad at creating sexy and strong female characters. Think of Viconia, Jaheira, Miranda, Tali (just to name a few)…
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July 2nd, 2012, 22:30
I have to admit, it would be interesting to see a triple A all female(maybe they could have male security guards and janitors working there to avoid the charge they were being sexist by not hiring males) game company form(with plenty of capital to ensure that they do not go under before they release their first hit game) and see what kind of games they would create, and see how their games compare to the games created by male dominated game companies. Heck, I'd be satisfied with a really good all female small indie game development company.
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July 2nd, 2012, 23:29
Originally Posted by zahratustra View Post
Can't agree more curious! Bioware is actually not bad at creating sexy and strong female characters. Think of Viconia, Jaheira, Miranda, Tali (just to name a few)…
Yea, Vicky in BG2… Yummy!
BG1 Viconia however… Meh.
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July 3rd, 2012, 06:10
Originally Posted by Maylander View Post
I don't really see the problem. Sex sells. Making money is the goal of most types of media, whether they want to admit it or not.
Well, the problem is they are driving away half their potential audience. The movie biz has its 'chick flicks' and 'guy flicks' but most movies have enough in them for both genders to enjoy that they can watch together. Games - not so much.

But hey, I guess that's more games for me. If game companies insist on halving their profits, that's their business.
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July 3rd, 2012, 07:41
Do you really think they would be selling twice as many games just by having a strong female role as an option? Let's not be that naive.
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July 3rd, 2012, 09:50
Originally Posted by Zloth View Post
Well, the problem is they are driving away half their potential audience. The movie biz has its 'chick flicks' and 'guy flicks' but most movies have enough in them for both genders to enjoy that they can watch together. Games - not so much.

But hey, I guess that's more games for me. If game companies insist on halving their profits, that's their business.
Movies have the same kind of cam shots on male asses. That is the kind of adjustments the movie industry made.
If that was enough for video games to sell more to a woman audience, it would be done already.
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July 3rd, 2012, 11:50
Originally Posted by Zloth View Post
Well, the problem is they are driving away half their potential audience. The movie biz has its 'chick flicks' and 'guy flicks' but most movies have enough in them for both genders to enjoy that they can watch together. Games - not so much.

But hey, I guess that's more games for me. If game companies insist on halving their profits, that's their business.
Titanic, Twilight and so on begs to differ. I very much doubt they'd get more profit by also including the male audience, as they'd have to significantly reduce the female audience to do it.
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July 3rd, 2012, 13:08
Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
By the way, doubtful that a female dominated industry would lead to a different outcome. I'd expect an even deeper inclination to sell by marketing the female body.
Is this an "male view" on the matter, too ?

[Shortened by me]

Originally Posted by The Hulk View Post
I have to admit, it would be interesting to see a triple A all female game company form
There at least exists an all-female developing studio : The Silicon Sisters. http://www.siliconsisters.ca/

Shoer Article on them : http://www.techvibes.com/blog/vancou…ets-2011-06-23

Edit : Just found 2 articles at Wikipedia :

On "Women And Video Games" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_video_games

Quote from there :

Gamers of both genders tend to crave realism and the more realistic the female character, the easier it is for a female player to identify with the character.[11] An academic study in 2010, however, found that 85% of playable characters in video games are male.[4] Part of the problem comes from the difficulty in juxtaposing femininity and feminism in a good video game.[12] When female characters do appear in video games, they are often regarded as presenting unhealthy messages concerning unrealistic body images and provocative sexual and violent behaviors for players of both genders. Stereotypical female behaviors such as giggling or sighing are often presented non-ironically, and this leads young children (especially girls who identify with the female character) to think that this is how girls are supposed to look and act.[13] Furthermore, over-sexualized depictions[4][11] of scantily clad female video game characters such as Tomb Raider's Lara Croft[12] aren't appealing to many girls.[14]
Social and cultural attitudes

Critics attribute the seeming lack of female interest in video games to a misogynistic attitude that is common among the professional and hardcore gamers[16] and to the negative portrayal of women in video games. These biases have entered mainstream culture as well leading to the recognition that when males and females are responding to gaming surveys, context and the nature of the person or group posing the question matters to a considerable degree with males publicly disavowing playing games like Dance Dance Revolution while privately playing the game and females disavowing gaming in any form while privately playing video games.[4] Female gamers also face the problem of having few or no role models of the same gender[17] which leads to paranoia over how the gamer is perceived in-game. This in turn makes some women feel that they should edit their femininity in order to maintain credibility as a gamer, and that they must fit into the caricatured role of the "girl gamer" in order to be accepted.[10]
Comparable to a rite of passage, negative stereotyping of all female video game players as "girl gamers" quite often come from male gamers who have themselves been negatively stereotyped by the broader society.[10]

On "Portrayal Of Women In Video Games" : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portray…in_video_games

Quote from there :

Gender discrimination and censorship

The titular hero in the Japanese game Ninja Princess was turned into a male character in the English version of the game, re-titled as Sega Ninja.[12] A number of female enemies in the Japanese beat'em up games were also either gender-changed or removed in the export versions.[13]

And last, just to remind you, from the original Gamasutra article :

Right now, any women who are standing up and talking about these issues are being attacked by game communities and the internet at large. Sarkeesian's kickstarter is up to almost $160,000 now, which is amazing. But it also shows that her supporters are largely silent, because how much have you really heard on her behalf? Her detractors on the other hand, are decidedly vocal.

“ Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in the opposite direction.“ (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
Last edited by Alrik Fassbauer; July 3rd, 2012 at 13:51.
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July 3rd, 2012, 17:08
I just found out that there are no Wikipedia entries for 2 of 3 RPGs with female heroes - coincidence ? Or result of "male bias" ?

- "Kult : Heretic Kingdoms" : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kult:_Heretic_Kingdoms
- "Gods : Lands Of Infinity" : http://www.gamespot.com/gods-lands-o…eview-6175927/
- "Neverend" : http://www.gamespot.com/news/dreamca…verend-6157250

“ Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in the opposite direction.“ (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
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July 3rd, 2012, 17:08
Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
Not very sure about virtual pixel made models being the key to reproduction and perpetuation of species.

By the way, doubtful that a female dominated industry would lead to a different outcome. I'd expect an even deeper inclination to sell by marketing the female body.

If it makes sell, then it is good. And it is a sure value for games with failing gameplays, as so many games are nowadays.
I see you'e misunderstood my post completely.
First, I fail to see how someone would find a connection between reproduction and pixels, and missing the obvious point of my post, which was sexual desires. I sure hope it was not an intentional 'innocent' mistake, but it sure looks like one.
Second, when I said 'hardcore' gaming industry is dominated by men, I was talking about the audience as well as the developers. Especially the audience, since it's the audience that defines hardcore gaming industry. I hope that makes it more clear.
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July 3rd, 2012, 17:40
"Male Gaze" theory is just a distorted version of attraction that puts extra layers on "male heterosexuality". It's a form of sophisticated sexism. It's ultimate goal is to control the female (180 degrees opposite to how it's stated). Feel free to compare the theory of "Male Gaze" with Islamic reasoning about how men are unable to control themselves and women must cover themselves for her own good.

Furthermore, "Male Gaze"-theory also attempts to explain a phenomenon that is not rooted within males or watchers but the watched. Only a minority have the feelings that the theory attempt to explain, the rest lacks those feelings and do not care. The phenomenon is that people bother more or less how they are seen by others. For some such feelings fill their whole world like an obsession, especially how the opposite sex see them. Others do not care at all. Not being aware of such differences will make people very confused about other people interpret the same situation.

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July 4th, 2012, 14:59
… But behind a monitor nobody sees you watching (if you are playing alone, that is). It's rather a situation of voyeurism, then.

“ Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in the opposite direction.“ (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
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July 4th, 2012, 15:09
Originally Posted by blackcanopus View Post
I see you'e misunderstood my post completely.
First, I fail to see how someone would find a connection between reproduction and pixels, and missing the obvious point of my post, which was sexual desires. I sure hope it was not an intentional 'innocent' mistake, but it sure looks like one.
Second, when I said 'hardcore' gaming industry is dominated by men, I was talking about the audience as well as the developers. Especially the audience, since it's the audience that defines hardcore gaming industry. I hope that makes it more clear.
It has kept us alive and ensured our survival. Struggling against it is absurd, completely pathetic and insane.
Sexual desires by themselves can not ensure "our" survival. Reproduction can on another hand.

Or is there something missed here?
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July 4th, 2012, 15:12
Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer View Post
Is this an "male view" on the matter, too ?
No. Based on the fact that studios want to sell their products. An all female studios would not escape that point. There might be a male view and a female view on how to sell the products but all in all, through observation, the differences are minimal.
Say hello to the new boss, same as the old boss comes to mind for that demand.
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July 4th, 2012, 18:29
Originally Posted by blackcanopus View Post
Every time I see a very radical and irrational comment about respecting women to the point that actually ignores the very meaning of genders, I get the feeling that either the author was completely asexual, or trying hard to score a feminist hot-chick.
Well said.

Feminists are often the same type of self-righteous hypocrites that likes to call themselves anti-racists. I mean, no shit..? Anti-racist and feminist in 2012? That's outrageous, they must feel really special.
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July 4th, 2012, 22:39
Originally Posted by blackcanopus View Post
Every time I see a very radical and irrational comment about respecting women to the point that actually ignores the very meaning of genders,
The existance of genders imho doesn't justify staring.
Or "gazing", in this case.

Your comment reads as if you would apply that

genders = staring/gazing.

“ Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in the opposite direction.“ (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
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July 5th, 2012, 01:42
Originally Posted by blackcanopus View Post
Every time I see a very radical and irrational comment about respecting women to the point that actually ignores the very meaning of genders
What is "the meaning of genders"?

Originally Posted by blackcanopus View Post
Anyways, there are things that men prefer, and there are things that women prefer, and it has nothing to do with using each other, or being disrespectful or sexist. It's more or less dictated by or genes (and to a lesser extent by our culture).
Psychology student (and I guess "behavioral scientist" at this stage) signing in.

Neurosexism is not only false, completely contradicting the data, it's also an irrational position based on biases and emotions. There is no "male" or "female personality", the variation of personalities are greater within sexes than between. It will be easier for you to find 10 pairs of similar personalities but different genders than finding 10 people within a gender who have the same personality.

It has kept us alive and ensured our survival. Struggling against it is absurd, completely pathetic and insane.
But this is even more stupid. We broke with nature 9000 years ago when someone discovered the plow and we haven't followed "genes" since. We invent, we design, we shape the world the way we want it. Every invention ever made is against our nature and it's breaking up with nature that is our core capacity when it comes to survival. We are the most the adaptive animal on this planet because we do not live by nature, we conquer nature. Our brains are extremely complex and dynamic structures that is capable of reprogramming almost everything we got from birth and THATS our legacy.

You may use your glorified caveman as a rolemodel in life. Me, I look up to people who went beyond everything that was done before them. That includes Marie Curie as well as all the brilliant women at my university who dedicated their lives to build upon the collective knowledge of mankind. Why should I listen to what your "genes" have to say?

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July 5th, 2012, 12:32
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
There is no "male" or "female personality", the variation of personalities are greater within sexes than between. It will be easier for you to find 10 pairs of similar personalities but different genders than finding 10 people within a gender who have the same personality.
You forget the practical view of this.

There are no people - as the Nazis said "The Jews". But still the Nazis tried to impose such a clichι as a "fact".

You need to get away from the theoretical point of view and see the practical side of it as well :

There WILL be people claiming "they know what the other sex wants", for example. There WILL be people out there claiming that "all gypsies steal", no matter how wrong it is.

To close the eyes before practical results or what actually happens "in real life" can be dangerous. Like we currently witness here in Germny where both the police and the secret service couldn't imagine a Neo-Nazi terror group murdering immigrants. They were "blind on the right eye", as we say here (right being the side of the nationalists and the Neo-Nazis).
During their investigation they had always assumed assissinations from within the immigrant's cultures. Mafia-like crime ΄structures among the immigrant groups were the ONLY POSSIBLE source of these assissinations, they thought. Both the police forces AND the Secret Service !

They didn't take into account that the PRACTICAL reults might be entirely different !

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July 5th, 2012, 16:00
I am all for equality between genders and respect towards women but there should be room for men to be Men and women to be Women without having to justify ourselves to these radical extremist feminists who impose their one-sided views and trying to make us feel like horrible people.

Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
Sexual desires by themselves can not ensure "our" survival. Reproduction can on another hand.
But evolution has shaped our sexual desires so that chances of survivability are increased. That is why we are sexually attracted to young healthy girls instead of old grannies with skin deseases, just to state an extreme example.

Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
There is no "male" or "female personality", the variation of personalities are greater within sexes than between. It will be easier for you to find 10 pairs of similar personalities but different genders than finding 10 people within a gender who have the same personality.
I don't think "personality" is the topic here. Simple observation within society will tell you, using plain common sense, that there are indeed different generalised behaviours, traits and desires when comparing men and women, regardless of whatever reasons that cause those differences.

Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
But this is even more stupid. We broke with nature 9000 years ago when someone discovered the plow and we haven't followed "genes" since. We invent, we design, we shape the world the way we want it. Every invention ever made is against our nature and it's breaking up with nature that is our core capacity when it comes to survival. We are the most the adaptive animal on this planet because we do not live by nature, we conquer nature. Our brains are extremely complex and dynamic structures that is capable of reprogramming almost everything we got from birth and THATS our legacy.
I am a firm believer of those theories that state that a large part of our social behaviour, including the dynamics behind sexual attraction, are a result of evolution and that these primitive social dynamics still persist in today's world.

Our society has changed rapidly during the last millennia with all its continued increase in science and technology so the areas of importance that determine our success at survival have shifted. Nevertheless, many of our instinctive behaviour and desires still originate from our caveman days, and no matter how much rational thought you want to apply, you cannot always overrule your irrational inner animalistic being.

Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
You may use your glorified caveman as a rolemodel in life. Me, I look up to people who went beyond everything that was done before them. That includes Marie Curie as well as all the brilliant women at my university who dedicated their lives to build upon the collective knowledge of mankind. Why should I listen to what your "genes" have to say?
This is just nonsensical. I have female colleagues whom I respect professionally since they deliver good work but that doesn't take away the fact that I wouldn't mind "banging" this particularly hot female employee when I happen to see her walking outside of my window. After all, it is not a rational choice but an instantaneous feeling.
(To any radical extreme feminist reading this: No, I will not justify myself nor apologize)
Last edited by Asdraguuhl; July 5th, 2012 at 18:56.
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July 5th, 2012, 16:08
If it's such a big deal, then why are women so eager to show their bodies?

AFAIK - we're not talking prostitution as a means of survival. We're talking women who're contributing their bodies to the entertainment industry and getting paid in the process.

If that's a problem, then I don't see how or why.

The male desires the female and the female desires the male. It's pretty basic biology and I don't think it's a problem.

I mean, violence is equally natural - but it's also quite detrimental to a functional world society. So, maybe we should start there instead.
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