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April 15th, 2013, 15:35
Well, having played WoW for about 6 years before quitting and playing GW2: Wow has a ton of content, lore and momentum to ensure a large and thriving fanbase.

But GW2 is just a lot more fun for me. And since it is not subscription based, I no longer feel compelled to play the game every month to justify the cost. The level design is fanastic. Some of the jumping puzzles are especially well done but also nefarious!

Having played GW2 mostly solo, I can say that the main storyline and the quests are god enough to feel like a good single player RPG. This is the same sensation I have when I played the Neverwinter beta so I am particularly looking forward to that one.
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April 15th, 2013, 15:43
Well, I absolutely hated the Neverwinter beta
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April 15th, 2013, 17:11
You hated Neverwinter? What didn't you like? Other than being the Forgotton Realms in lore only as gameplay is nothing like Dungeons and Dragons. I also see it as more of an action oriented single player romp aside from the occasional dungeon run with friends.
If you only played it this weekend, I can understand it as it was laggy and unplayable. This was the first time I had a single bug in 4 beta weekends.

Getting back to GW2, I'm glad I haven't been updating it regularly for nothing;I am going to put a little time in it until NW open beta starts
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April 15th, 2013, 18:32
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Well, I absolutely hated the Neverwinter beta
Ouch sorry to hear that, Dart. I'd be interested as well to hear your thoughts on why you didn't like it.
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April 15th, 2013, 19:42
Well crap now I may have to retry GW2. I stopped playing after awhile because I was having trouble getting immersed into it. Perhaps I need to give it a second try and gave up on it to easy. I have the game and its free so probably worth another attempt.

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April 15th, 2013, 23:44
Originally Posted by Dr. A View Post
Ouch sorry to hear that, Dart. I'd be interested as well to hear your thoughts on why you didn't like it.
Well, it's among the worst MMOs I've beta tested - and I've tested pretty much all of them, unless you count the obscure asian F2P games.

The character system is incredibly shallow and has almost nothing to do with D&D, and I don't even like 4th Edition to begin with.

The combat system is extremely simplistic and the animations are AWFUL. Everything felt cheap like all other Cryptic games since CoH/CoX. It's clear that they haven't had much time to develop it.

The city of Neverwinter looked like a huge Toys 'R Us store instead of a medieval city.

The concept of the foundry is good - but I don't like how the developers seem to rely on it as the primary appeal of the game. It's as if they expect the players to create the content for them, and I've experienced enough player-created content to know that the good stuff is extremely rare and when you're using a limited editor to create it - it will ALWAYS grow stale and repetitive much sooner than hand-crafted stuff by professionals. It takes years before you get enough quality to fill your time in this way.

I don't know - I really didn't like anything about it.

I hate heavily instanced games - just like I hated STO. It's like everything interesting takes place in a separate area that has to be loaded and has no connection to the world. It feels so artificial and takes me out of the experience.

If you want a good cooperative dungeon experience with heavy instancing, I'd say DDO is a million times better and with a MUCH better character development system. It might not be as flashy as Neverwinter - but it's much deeper and you have content enough for years by now.

Neverwinter is just about the most shallow MMO I've tried.

Frankly, beyond the mildly entertaining action combat - I have absolutely no idea what people like about it. I hope they don't think the game can last because the first few hours are fun when bashing away mindlessly.

If you want a fantastic action combat system, you would do much better by playing GW2.
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April 16th, 2013, 01:04
GW2 didn't draw me in as much as I hoped it would. It looks pretty and runs well but something "meaningful" was lacking in it. I could never put my finger on it. Social aspects are the big draw for me when it comes to MMOs and GW2 was designed to minimise the social aspects/dependencies. May be they went too far with it, I don't know

I will have to play the GW2 again since I bought LOT of gems when the game was launched and didn't spend any of them!

I am playing TERA right now and having fun despite all its flaws. The combat system is one of the best in MMOs I have played and that has helped to mask away the grindy nature of TERA. It also has holy trinity and that creates social dependencies. This get people talking and working with each other rather than faceless strangers in a big crowd (GW2 dynamic events).
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April 16th, 2013, 01:59
Originally Posted by lostforever View Post
GW2 didn't draw me in as much as I hoped it would. It looks pretty and runs well but something "meaningful" was lacking in it. I could never put my finger on it. Social aspects are the big draw for me when it comes to MMOs and GW2 was designed to minimise the social aspects/dependencies. May be they went too far with it, I don't know
This isn't really the case. Grouping up works very well in GW2 and the traditional trinity is replaced by cross class combinations. For instance my first character was a warrior and I played a lot with a friend who went necro; that allows combos of some of the warrior's skills with the necro's dark fields, for instance. This kind of gameplay is a blast in Gw2 especially at higher levels and if you seek out some of the more challenging areas or play slightly over level. And there's no need to follow the event zergs - just head off and do your own thing.
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April 16th, 2013, 10:35
Originally Posted by Roq View Post
This isn't really the case. Grouping up works very well in GW2 and the traditional trinity is replaced by cross class combinations. For instance my first character was a warrior and I played a lot with a friend who went necro; that allows combos of some of the warrior's skills with the necro's dark fields, for instance. This kind of gameplay is a blast in Gw2 especially at higher levels and if you seek out some of the more challenging areas or play slightly over level. And there's no need to follow the event zergs - just head off and do your own thing.
I guess group works well if you are starting the game out with friends. Unfortunately, I did not start the game with any friends and the friend who did play, played at the wrong times. I did joined couple of guilds and they are either full of people I didn't get along with or they had already established group of friends and it was hard for an outsider to be part of that group. I found my self soloing most of the time. No one ask for group in chat and even when I ask, no one really responds. Part of the reason for this is that, GW2 goes out of it way to remove social dependencies.
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April 16th, 2013, 10:49
GW2 is very much a solo game with grouping options. I play it 90% solo. It's pleasant, but not overly deep and engaging like DDO. I use it for a light almost casual session.

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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April 16th, 2013, 11:06
Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
GW2 is very much a solo game with grouping options. I play it 90% solo. It's pleasant, but not overly deep and engaging like DDO. I use it for a light almost casual session.
I think you are very right about GW2. When I start it again, I will approach it as an solo game so I won't be disappointed again

I here lot of good things about DOO at the watch but I have never played that game. What makes it deep and engaging, unlike say GW2 please?
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April 16th, 2013, 12:21
WRT grouping versus solo:

MMO designers have a crucial dilemma: Do they force you into grouping or do they allow you to play the game solo, if that is your preference? Early MMOs were all about grouping; you could hardly progress in vanilla WoW (or Everquest etc.), without at least grouping up for some instances, such as Dead Mines, since the story was dependent on it and you got much better loot. The problem was that a very large proportion of players, so called "casual" players, didn't like grouping up with strangers in pick up groups (PUGs), not least because many of the people you met were abusive, juvenile or otherwise offensive (don't even try to be main healer or tank in a WoW PUG ). So games started to allow the whole game to be played solo. But now the problem is, why bother to group at all? Most MMO players are mainly motivated by progression & loot and if you can get those quickly going solo, they just won't bother to group up.

No game has managed to solve this grouping/solo dilemma the least bit satisfactorily. GW2s idea of on the fly grouping looked promising, but in practice tends to lead to zerging, which can completely negate any challenge in dynamic events. TESO has another solution the so called Megaserver. The idea is that everyone is on one huge server, but you only actually see a fraction of the population in your instance that share the preferences you selected (or are in ur friend list) - such as whether you like solo play or grouping etc. How this is going to turn out is anyone's guess. My feeling is that people will somehow break it!? But maybe that's because I'm a little cynical about human behaviour in circumstances where they can easily shirk their social obligations without incurring peer punishment.
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April 16th, 2013, 12:59
I think you are very right about GW2. When I start it again, I will approach it as an solo game so I won't be disappointed again

I here lot of good things about DOO at the watch but I have never played that game. What makes it deep and engaging, unlike say GW2 please?
DDO has a much more intricate character development system. In fact, I think it might be the MOST intricate development system of any MMO. It's based on D&D 3rd Edition rules - but with many changes to fit a computer game.

That said, I think the game has a LOT of grind if you want to optimise your character and performance, which I tend to enjoy. It's actually completely sick if you're a min/max'er - because they have this feature called "Past Life" - which means you can create more powerful characters when you've played a class to level 20 - and you can do this multiple times for ALL classes, and each new character will benefit no matter what class you pick.

So, if you want to perform at your best - you have to play to max level several times over - which is a bit ridiculous.

The game is also old and I think the visuals are very dated, especially in the old areas. But it has a fantastic cooperative atmosphere and all classes have something useful to contribute when working together.

It has a LOT of content and plenty of large outdoor areas that makes it feel somewhat less like the heavily instanced game it is at the core.

My biggest problem with the game is just how dated it feels. Combat is incredibly dull after a while - and I just don't feel engaged when playing. It IS an old game - so it's no surprise. Sound and music are both particularly weak - and I'm afraid I just can't deal with these issues at length.

Some people have a much higher tolerance for dated stuff - and I can easily appreciate why people like the game.
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April 16th, 2013, 13:22
Originally Posted by Roq View Post
WRT grouping versus solo:

MMO designers have a crucial dilemma: Do they force you into grouping or do they allow you to play the game solo, if that is your preference? Early MMOs were all about grouping; you could hardly progress in vanilla WoW (or Everquest etc.), without at least grouping up for some instances, such as Dead Mines, since the story was dependent on it and you got much better loot. The problem was that a very large proportion of players, so called "casual" players, didn't like grouping up with strangers in pick up groups (PUGs), not least because many of the people you met were abusive, juvenile or otherwise offensive (don't even try to be main healer or tank in a WoW PUG ). So games started to allow the whole game to be played solo. But now the problem is, why bother to group at all? Most MMO players are mainly motivated by progression & loot and if you can get those quickly going solo, they just won't bother to group up.

No game has managed to solve this grouping/solo dilemma the least bit satisfactorily. GW2s idea of on the fly grouping looked promising, but in practice tends to lead to zerging, which can completely negate any challenge in dynamic events. TESO has another solution the so called Megaserver. The idea is that everyone is on one huge server, but you only actually see a fraction of the population in your instance that share the preferences you selected (or are in ur friend list) - such as whether you like solo play or grouping etc. How this is going to turn out is anyone's guess. My feeling is that people will somehow break it!? But maybe that's because I'm a little cynical about human behaviour in circumstances where they can easily shirk their social obligations without incurring peer punishment.
The thing about social interaction online is that we're dealing with strangers that have no face or voice.

Unless you're a really social creature - there really isn't much incentive to socialise - because of all the hassle it tends to bring.

I honestly don't think the game should incentivize OR punish social play. I think all good MMOs should provide avenues of gameplay for both groups and solo players - but both should be able to experience the vast majority of content in one way or another.

Many gamers tend to be less socially active than the average human being - especially if they're "hardcore" gamers. I hope I don't have to explain why as it should be supremely obvious.

This means that there's an extra challenge in trying to get people together - and I just don't think developers should force the issue. Just make quality content and design it so that you can enjoy it no matter how you approach it.

Players blame GW2 because it's too convenient to defeat group content without communicating - and I do think that group content should require coordination. So, in some ways - I DO think it was a mistake to design dynamic events the way they did. They should have done more than scale hitpoints and numbers - and I think the next step is to increase the enemy tactical options to fit the amount of players.

But it's a HUGE challenge to do this well, because you don't know if you're going to have 2 players or 50 players. It takes a smart design to dynamically scale in a way that makes sense.

Also, why would most players even WANT to complete content if they know they can do it alone? In my opinion - it's a tough nut to crack. I'd say it should be MUCH harder to do alone, but it should be doable.

Don't let solo players walk all over large encounters or dungeons - because it just doesn't make sense and it's not immersive. Design dungeons so that solo players can experience them, whether alone or with henchmen - but scaling needs to be smart and the encounters should be sufficiently interesting for both kinds of players. Also, introduce content that players will want to experience in a group - but don't incentivize it with better rewards. It's stupid that solo players are punished in terms of power.

Anyway, it's a hard challenge for developers for sure.
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April 16th, 2013, 18:06
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
DDO has a much more intricate character development system. In fact, I think it might be the MOST intricate development system of any MMO. It's based on D&D 3rd Edition rules - but with many changes to fit a computer game.

That said, I think the game has a LOT of grind if you want to optimise your character and performance, which I tend to enjoy. It's actually completely sick if you're a min/max'er - because they have this feature called "Past Life" - which means you can create more powerful characters when you've played a class to level 20 - and you can do this multiple times for ALL classes, and each new character will benefit no matter what class you pick.

So, if you want to perform at your best - you have to play to max level several times over - which is a bit ridiculous.

The game is also old and I think the visuals are very dated, especially in the old areas. But it has a fantastic cooperative atmosphere and all classes have something useful to contribute when working together.

It has a LOT of content and plenty of large outdoor areas that makes it feel somewhat less like the heavily instanced game it is at the core.

My biggest problem with the game is just how dated it feels. Combat is incredibly dull after a while - and I just don't feel engaged when playing. It IS an old game - so it's no surprise. Sound and music are both particularly weak - and I'm afraid I just can't deal with these issues at length.

Some people have a much higher tolerance for dated stuff - and I can easily appreciate why people like the game.
I am big fan of min/max my character so I think I will enjoy that part. However I DO get bothered by dated looks. I have both lot of games from Gog.com and I could not play any of them due to the way they look now. Funny enough I enjoyed many of those games when they first got released but not now!
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April 16th, 2013, 18:30
If anyone is interested in trying GW2, they are doing a free weekend trial event. MMORPG have keys.
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April 16th, 2013, 18:42
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Many gamers tend to be less socially active than the average human being - especially if they're "hardcore" gamers. I hope I don't have to explain why as it should be supremely obvious.
I don't think this is a valid assumption. I know lot of "hardcore" gamers who are less socially active in real life but are very "socially" active in game world. These are your hard core raiders, guild leader types etc.

I do agree its very hard task to balance group and solo play but I would think a MMO can favour group play without penalising the solo play. Let me give an example. In WoW you ended up competing with other players for harvesting nodes. Many people didn't like this. They hated the sight of other players despite the social dynamics that brought. So In GW2 they made it so that each player get their own copy of the node. What they should have done is, each person get a copy of the node but instead if they decided to group and harvest the same node, they get more loot than if they harvested their own individual copy. This way you can reward group play without penalising solo play.
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April 16th, 2013, 19:07
Originally Posted by lostforever View Post
I don't think this is a valid assumption. I know lot of "hardcore" gamers who are less socially active in real life but are very "socially" active in game world. These are your hard core raiders, guild leader types etc.
I don't agree - but there are exceptions. I'm not saying they're not going to interact with people as much as a socially active individual, but the interaction will not be based on a desire to be social - but rather a desire to achieve something within the game. That's been my experience, anyway.

They're usually focused on the "game" and not the social interaction, as in they will want to progress their character and will generally be less tolerant of players who hold them back.

A socially active individual will tend to focus on the social interaction - and will not be as focused on the game and progression.

Obviously, this is a generalization - but in the grand scheme of things, I'm quite certain it's not far from the truth.

Personally, I'm sort of a hybrid. When playing with friends - I'm focused on social interaction - but when playing with strangers, I tend to focus on the game. I don't really care to make friends with strangers that I'll never meet, but I will never be unfriendly unless they're asking for it. Also, I'm not a selfish person - so I would never put my own progression ahead of someone I was questing with. I always make sure they have everything they need before I start focusing on myself. Which is probably why I tend to solo when there are no friends online - because I generally feel other people are holding me back when I'm focusing on the game.

Also, I don't react well if people don't treat others (including myself) with respect. In fact, I can be extremely harsh if someone is not behaving in a social setting. I've got a very low tolerance for assholes and unfortunately, all MMOs have got their share.

I do agree its very hard task to balance group and solo play but I would think a MMO can favour group play without penalising the solo play. Let me give an example. In WoW you ended up competing with other players for harvesting nodes. Many people didn't like this. They hated the sight of other players despite the social dynamics that brought. So In GW2 they made it so that each player get their own copy of the node. What they should have done is, each person get a copy of the node but instead if they decided to group and harvest the same node, they get more loot than if they harvested their own individual copy. This way you can reward group play without penalising solo play.
We don't agree about what penalising means, in that case.

If you get a progression/power related advantage by grouping - then you're penalising the solo player.

Maybe they should have made gathering faster the more players on the node at a time, but still have a set limit of resources pr. node. That way, you're not giving more to group players - you're just adding a mild convenience.

I'm ok with giving grouped players XP bonuses as well, because I don't see leveling faster as much of an advantage. In fact, I tend to think of it as a disadvantage - because you're going to see less low-level content if you level faster.

That's the kind of incentive I can go along with - but never give grouped players a big advantage. I certainly don't think that's the way to go about it.
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April 17th, 2013, 03:18
Originally Posted by lostforever View Post
I am big fan of min/max my character so I think I will enjoy that part. However I DO get bothered by dated looks. I have both lot of games from Gog.com and I could not play any of them due to the way they look now. Funny enough I enjoyed many of those games when they first got released but not now!
It depends on how you define 'dated'. There has been a ton of new content added to the game recently and more is on the way. Personally I don't consider the graphics dated at all. I'm sure there are plenty of screen shots available online for you to check out. While there are elements of 'grinding', many can be ignored or minimised depending on play style. I do very little. Peter, who is into crafting, does a lot of it, but that is his personal choice. While combat at the lower levels can be quite basic, once you reach the mid-levels, (10-14) it can be very complex and strategic with weapon choices, spell selection, and even party composition being important decisions. Each quest can also be played at several levels for greater rewards and challenges. The bottom line for me though, is the social interaction we have using Skype. I only play with regulars from here on Khyber server and we have a great time together. The game is F2P with either micro-transactions for additional content/classes/races or you can use the internal 'favor' system to get much of the extra stuff free as well.

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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April 19th, 2013, 14:33
I will try it to this week end

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/t…d-april-19-21/
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