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Default 6NOV: The Apocolypse Cometh

November 7th, 2012, 14:20
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Let me get this straight—our friend makes a grand pronouncement, gloriously spewing something that is completely, factually inaccurate (and easily verifiable, to boot) and I'm the one that's wearing blinders. Must be some of that enlightened logic again.
I'm not talking about him - but you

You seem obsessed with the debt and how Obama is personally responsible. Well, him and his "cronies".

Or am I wrong about that?
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November 7th, 2012, 14:20
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Yeah, Bush and that super justified invasion certainly has nothing to do with the debt
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Oh, and that little financial crisis has nothing to do with the people and corporations - but exclusively the current leadership
Can I loan you some straw? You're liable to run out at this rate.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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November 7th, 2012, 14:20
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Can I loan you some straw? You're liable to run out at this rate.
So, you're not actually talking about the debt problem?
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November 7th, 2012, 14:23
In ten years, it won't matter what a president stands for when the nation he leads is insolvent. All these happyhappy joy joy ideals go out the window when your economy bottoms out, your currency isn't worth the paper it's printed on, and the world economy is tumultuously restructured to place you on the bottom rung of the ladder.
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November 7th, 2012, 14:25
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
I'm not talking about him - but you

You seem obsessed with the debt and how Obama is personally responsible. Well, him and his "cronies".

Or am I wrong about that?
Obama is not personally responsible because the executive branch does not pass budgets (technically, neither does the democrat-led senate, but why get mired in trivia). Your sarcasm is completely empty when it's based on such nonsense. Obummer is personally responsible for setting a collision course and the executive branch has traditionally put forth a budget proposal that largely gets rubber-stamped. So he's leading by philosophy and by proposed numbers, but (showing his tremendous leadership skills) he has failed to lead by actual results for 3 years in a row.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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November 7th, 2012, 14:25
Actually, what Bush and the american corporations and consumers seem to stand for is exactly what brought you the debt that you're now blaming Obama for.

It's really something.
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November 7th, 2012, 14:26
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Obama is not personally responsible because the executive branch does not pass budgets (technically, neither does the democrat-led senate, but why get mired in trivia). Your sarcasm is completely empty when it's based on such nonsense. Obummer is personally responsible for setting a collision course and the executive branch has traditionally put forth a budget proposal that largely gets rubber-stamped. So he's leading by philosophy and by proposed numbers, but (showing his tremendous leadership skills) he has failed to lead by actual results for 3 years in a row.
The collision course was started with Bush - and blaming the next person in the seat for that shit - is too easy. No one could realistically eliminate the troubles after that mess.
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November 7th, 2012, 14:56
After seeing Obama won the election I feel more relieved that happy. Personally I think Obama has disappointed quite a bit compared to the hope we had in him 4 years ago. I know he has struggled with a Republican majority in the House of Representatives, but I don't see many results of CHANGE, his mantra from 2008. Still I feel relieved because we didn't end up again with a Republican president. I think many Europeans feel like that and will explain why below. Just for the record, I'm a conservative voter in Norway and would have voted if I could on the Republicans all the way up to George Bush Sr. Now I fear the Republicans.


In Europe I think between 60-80% of the people want a Democratic president instead of a Republican. The exception is Great Britain and some Eastern European countries were the Republicans are just as popular.

I think the main reason for the lack of support from conservative voters in Europe can be summed up by 3 words. George W. Bush.

Bush torpedoed the environmental agreement (Rio, Kyoto etc.) because he didn't believe the world has a problem with pollution. Many Europeans take the environment problem very seriously and became gutted when USA withdrew from the Kyoto agreement.

It's under Bush the Europeans got dragged into wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

It was under Bush the US Government debt doubled from 6 trillion dollars to 12 trillion. It was under Bush the financial crisis started on Wall street in 2008. The EU countries still struggle very hard with the aftermath of that financial crisis. Especially countries like Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal. It's possible these countries would have got in trouble anyway, but the problem spawned in 2008.

Many Europeans are a bit afraid when Romney is speaking about seeing Russia as the most important "enemy" of USA at the moment. Europe has been under the threat of the Soviet Union since after the war and were very relieved when the cold war ended. Europeans want peaceful coexistence with Russia and not confrontation. So Europeans cheered when Obama introduced the reset button in the relationship with Russia. Obama even got the Nobel peace prize for the effort of mending wounds with Russia and moslem countries.

Romney also spoke about a harder line against Iran and he didn't exclude the need for an intervention there. Many Europeans are afraid to be dragged into yet another war in that region. Moslem extremists are growing in Europe and we fear more violence between moslems and native Europeans on our home countries.

Many Europeans support a system ala Obamacare because most Europeans have a health system where the Government plays an active role. There are private hospitals, but they are supplements. The same with schools too. So I think Europeans are more used to having the Government involved in people's lives than Americans are used to. Therefore the Democrats don't look as frightful as they do to Republican voters.

I even hear some Americans call Obama a Socialist. That is because Americans have never be governed by true Socialists like we have in many European countries. The truth is that the Democrats would be considered a right wing conservative party if they had been in Europe. The Republicans are even more right wing. It's like having to vote between light blue and dark blue parties. So left wing Europeans see the democrats as the lesser "evil". Only the far right wing parties in Europe support the Republicans these days.

I know American voters only and not Europeans decide who becomes the US President, but Europeans still follow what's happening in USA closely. The choice will affect our lives very much too.

I hope the Republicans go into themselves and realize they need to change in order to win elections in the future. They have to start cooperating more with the Democrats to get USA out of the financial crisis and not try all they can to make life hard for the President. The country is losing because two parties are bickering and the entire world is suffering too because of that. The world needs a prosperous USA because we all trade with USA.

I fear that the Republicans think the medicine is to become more right wing (ala the Tea Party) because they failed twice with moderate candidates (Mc Cain and Romney).

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Last edited by Peter Stauffenberg; November 7th, 2012 at 15:33.
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November 7th, 2012, 14:57
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Obama is not personally responsible because the executive branch does not pass budgets (technically, neither does the democrat-led senate, but why get mired in trivia). - snip - Obummer is personally responsible for setting a collision course and the executive branch has traditionally put forth a budget proposal that largely gets rubber-stamped.
errr… run this by me again dte? You mean that, while senate Republicans were frantically waving olive branches, Obama was dead set against compromise?
Or that Dems did ever have such a majority in senate that they could force rubber stamping of anything?
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November 7th, 2012, 15:26
I think the escalating debt problem for USA will become a huge problem for USA and the entire world. So USA has to cut costs and increase income to the Government. I think the US debt situation spiralled out of control with geing stuck in wars in Agfhanistan and Iraq and the tax cuts introduced by Bush.

When Obama took over the finance crisis was in full motion. So one can't blame Obama for that crisis. Several presidents have responsibility for that. It started with Reagan, got worse with Clinton and Bush just continued the trend.

Obama has certainly made mistakes and it's worrying to see the debt increasing, but at least the wheels are starting to turn now. Just look at how e. g. Greece dealt with the same crisis having a too big debt. Greece started to make major cuts in spending to get loans to pay for their debt. The end result is mass unemployment like 25% overall and more than 50% for the young people. Still the country is deep in the quagmire and you now see riots there because of people struggling to survive. The same trend you see in Spain as well.

The problem with just making huge cuts is that businesses go under and you get mass unemployment. With less people at work you get less tax income and instead have to support these people with unexployment money.

I'm not sure USA would have got out of the crisis by just cutting the costs. What would happen if USA end up with 10-15% unemployment and lots of people not being able to support themselves?

Obama's solution was to keep some companies alive (like the car industry) during the crisis, hoping that they will be able to survive through the storm. It could be that this approach would eventually fail, but the alternative would probably be just as bad.

I think we have to look deeper to see WHY countries in the western world are struggling. The problems didn't start with the finance crisis. It started actually 30 or so years earlier. The world now has a global economy. It means companies can produce services and goods where they are cheaper. Over time you see that companies are moved from USA and Europe to e. g. China. Know-how is moved to countries like India.

E. g. I work for a Telecom company in Norway. Our IT maintenance is run from the Ukraine and development from India. Site planning in Norway is done from countries like Malaysia and Pakistan. The main reason is that the salaries are much lower there. How can Europeans compete with those low salaries?

Portugal had a huge textile industry, but it's been moved to China. Cars are being produced in Asia and so on.

So the root cause for the problems in USA and Europe is that production in our countries is too expensive and we allow our companies to be flagged out to Asia. How can you change such a trend? Jobs are disappearing by the Millions and the governments lack the power to turn the trend.

It doesn't matter to me whether Romney or Obama is President regarding this problem. Neither of them can control the situation. China are buying companies in USA and Europe now and soon we will work for them…. at least the ones left with a job.

So the future for Europe and USA look bleak. I think we have to accept that our golden era in history is over and that Asia will now take over. Eventually the living standards will sink enough in our countries so it can become lucrative again to produce here. That will take time and the transition period with be painful for all of us, regardless of the President, Prime Minister etc.

We are facing a GLOBAL problem and there are no easy solutions. If we want to turn the trend I think people have to start supporting production in their own countries by buying products manufactured here even at a higher price.

Americans need to look for Made in USA when buying. Germans need to look for Made in Germany etc. That means we will have to lower our living standards slightly because products become more expensive. Would you buy a color TV made in USA for $1000 if you can get the same TV from China for $500? I don't think many will.

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Last edited by Peter Stauffenberg; November 7th, 2012 at 15:39.
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November 7th, 2012, 16:20
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
The collision course was started with Bush - and blaming the next person in the seat for that shit - is too easy. No one could realistically eliminate the troubles after that mess.
Ah, the "Blame Bush" meme. Good to see it's alive and well. Funny, not only has the nation NOT made progress from "the troubles", it's actually gotten worse by numerous measures (debt, unemployment, population in poverty, food stamp allocations, among others). How long does Obummer get a free pass?

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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November 7th, 2012, 16:29
Originally Posted by zahratustra View Post
errr… run this by me again dte? You mean that, while senate Republicans were frantically waving olive branches, Obama was dead set against compromise?
Or that Dems did ever have such a majority in senate that they could force rubber stamping of anything?
Check your history. While there's always a lot of noise over the budget, in the end what gets passed (well, prior to 3 years of this democrat-led senate refusing to pass a budget) looks a great deal like what the executive (regardless of party) sends over. Generally, changes amount to a couple percentage points of shift between various priorities. If you don't want to call that a rubber stamp, that's up to you. In truth, the last time the executive budget proposal was effectively tossed in the trash was under Gingrich and Clinton, and even in that situation "tossed in the trash" is probably overstating the reality.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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November 7th, 2012, 16:46
I agree with Peter pretty much 100%. I'd never type that much tho …..
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November 7th, 2012, 18:27
Lol! There hasn't been a budget in how many years now because of republican obstructionism. They caused the reduction of the US debt rating because they almost let the us default. So who really is being irresponsible?
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November 7th, 2012, 18:30
Check your history, champ. Republicans put 3 different budget proposals up for vote in the senate in the last year alone. All 3 were defeated on party lines. Democrats put up…well…absolutely nothing. They even refused to vote on Obummer's budget.

But don't let the facts get in the way of your blame game.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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November 7th, 2012, 18:32
Originally Posted by Peter Stauffenberg View Post
I think the main reason for the lack of support from conservative voters in Europe can be summed up by 3 words. George W. Bush.
Yes. No doubt. Nothing at all.

Calling those European countries who were not willing to help him "the Old Europe" was the far greatest, worst, and most insulting insult Europeans can think of.

It was like : "You don't want to play with me ? Then I call you a game breaker, an old fart, an acient aberration which will soon be replaced by THE NEW ORDER which will be like me !" - To put it rather cynically.

Americans still don't realize how much damage G.W.Bush did to the European-U.S. relationship.

Originally Posted by Peter Stauffenberg View Post
I even hear some Americans call Obama a Socialist. That is because Americans have never be governed by true Socialists like we have in many European countries. The truth is that the Democrats would be considered a right wing conservative party if they had been in Europe. The Republicans are even more right wing. It's like having to vote between light blue and dark blue parties. So left wing Europeans see the democrats as the lesser "evil". Only the far right wing parties in Europe support the Republicans these days.
Yes, I agree to this, mostly. Not everything, but most of it.

Originally Posted by Peter Stauffenberg View Post
So the root cause for the problems in USA and Europe is that production in our countries is too expensive and we allow our companies to be flagged out to Asia. How can you change such a trend? Jobs are disappearing by the Millions and the governments lack the power to turn the trend.
You are missing the fact that Chinese workers demand higher wages nowadays.
Yes, it's true.
China is slowly, but steadily growing into having similar problems, although it will still take years.

My personally worst fear is nowadays that the whole U.S. economy - and even the whole society ! - is currently distorted, changed into something that suits the model of "rent seeking".

"Rent seeking" is defined as manipulating and chnging parts of economy and society so that the top people can receive a "rent" out of it.

Monopolization is such a thing. You monopolize a certain field of economy - all serious competors vanish - money trickling up stays stable. The heads of near-monopoly companies won't never even have to worry about their rents.

They even manage to sell it so to the public that this is "the American Dream" : to become SO BIG that the "life after working" won't be troubled by financial worries anymore.

Lobbyists are hired guns err people who nudge squeeze and shift politicians into directions which - in the long term ! - help the "rent seeking" bosses getting more income. Through laws, what else ?

The whole society gets distorted by cutting wages so much that the more curt is there, the more is left for the "rent seeking" people. In short : America is poor BECAUSE the top of the society is beding it to their "rent seeking" needs !

You can read descriptions of what "rent seeking" is here :

http://americablog.com/2012/07/stigl…-rentiers.html

http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/RentSeeking.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking

The (mostly African) Kleptocracy is just another form of "rent seeking" behaviour.

“ Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in the opposite direction.“ (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
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November 7th, 2012, 18:47
Originally Posted by Peter Stauffenberg View Post
Bush torpedoed the environmental agreement (Rio, Kyoto etc.) because he didn't believe the world has a problem with pollution. Many Europeans take the environment problem very seriously and became gutted when USA withdrew from the Kyoto agreement.
Get your facts straight. The US did not withdraw from anything, it never entered it. The agreement was made in 1997. Bill Clinton signed it, but our Senate never ratified it (required under our law). It's a bunk agreement anyway because it excluded China and India, two of the worst polluters, simply because they are 'developing'. That is why both the Senate and Bush were against it.

It's under Bush the Europeans got dragged into wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Technically yes on Afghanistan (won't argue about Iraq), but Afghanistan happened largely because of the policies under Clinton that 1) allowed Al-Qaeda to flourish and 2) did nothing to stop the Taliban from taking over Afghanistan (true Bush1 and Reagan share blame there, but it was under Clinton that the magnitude of the threat became realized). The Afghanistan war would have happened whether Bush or Gore won.

It was under Bush the US Government debt doubled from 6 trillion dollars to 12 trillion. It was under Bush the financial crisis started on Wall street in 2008. The EU countries still struggle very hard with the aftermath of that financial crisis. Especially countries like Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal. It's possible these countries would have got in trouble anyway, but the problem spawned in 2008.
Possible?!? It's guaranteed! The problems with Europe are certainly tied to the US, but not caused by it. It's a global problem of spending too much and not producing enough, fed by easy credit (look to your own central banks as much as the Fed).


I agree though that Romney was not a great choice (and McCain was even worse). With any luck, Chris Christie will be the Republican nominee in 2016. I'm more of a 3rd party voter as I've stated here, but I'd vote for him.

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November 7th, 2012, 18:48
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
The collision course was started with Bush - and blaming the next person in the seat for that shit - is too easy. No one could realistically eliminate the troubles after that mess.
Actually the collision course goes back farther. Most of the policies that created the financial mess were instituted under Clinton, and we can go back to Reagan if we want to get to the root of the problem over expanding credit when money market funds were allowed to be considered banking reserves.

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November 7th, 2012, 18:50
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
Lol! There hasn't been a budget in how many years now because of republican obstructionism. They caused the reduction of the US debt rating because they almost let the us default. So who really is being irresponsible?
Thrasher, the reduction of the US debt rating had nothing to do with almost defaulting due to lack of a budget. We had the exact same situation occur under Clinton and the rating didn't drop. It was caused by long term concern over the viability of the debt, which both sides are guilty of causing and not correcting.

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November 7th, 2012, 18:51
Reaganomics are the real source of the current problems, imho.
Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley just tried to swim atop of the huge wave by using the "Shock Doctrine".

“ Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in the opposite direction.“ (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
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