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November 20th, 2012, 12:26
Originally Posted by CountChocula View Post
There are no strategy games on consoles simply because their CPUs are not powerful enough to handle this type of game. The hardware also cannot handle multiplayer titles with dozens and dozens of players onscreen at once, or all the hundreds of thousands of persistent data objects in a huge MMORPG game world, not to mention how much easier it is for MMO developers to program backend systems on a platform like Windows. It's also great to have a UI that works with mouse and keyboard or keypad/numpad, but it's not the primary reason there is no Civilization V on Xbox, for example.

Considering the next generation consoles will be based on 64-bit PC architecture, with significantly more RAM and faster processors, it seems likely to open up more possibilities for multiplayer titles and MMOs, as well as strategy games.
I'm sorry, but we completely disagree here. WoW vanilla ran on a toaster - and it's not how many players are on screen at once - it's about combined polygon count/visual effects, network handling and how you visualise other players. Something tells me you don't know too much about what you're talking about - because all the persistent data is handled server-side, and the client is simply receiving only what's relevant for whatever area the player is in. The load is high - but it's on server side, and that's why you can't drop objects in the vast majority of MMOs - because the client would have to receive a shit-ton of information on a constant basis, and the data load would be enormous.

There's no reason an optimised MMO couldn't work very well on the Xbox and the PS3 (aside from UI issues) - and you already have examples of what you claim to be impossible in games like the Final Fantasy MMO and the DC Heroes MMO.

As for strategy games, they can be among the least demanding of all genres - especially turn-based strategy games, where the AI is inactive during the player turn - and there's no good reason to have too many fancy effects during play. This is why you have a zillion strategy games on the iPad - for instance, unless you want to claim that's more powerful than a modern console?

Even a sloppy developer like Firaxis managed to put out a reasonably complex strategy game called X-Com recently. We're talking about developers who opt to use elaborate 3D engines for designs that are basically tailor made for 2D stuff. Like the Civ games - their stuff tends to be EXTREMELY badly optimised.

Also, there are MMOs on the iPad - and a surprising amount of players are active.

Sorry, but you simply don't have the knowledge necessary to make these claims.
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November 20th, 2012, 13:53
This game will determine the future of SP games. How many of the unachieved ideas that Bethesda has the ambition to bring to the TES series SP is going to be implemented in an actual form in this game.

If they manage to bring that many in this MMO, big risks they will drop bringing them in SP games.
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November 20th, 2012, 14:01
Do you really believe the reason more MMOs and strategy games are not on console is solely due to the cost of adapting their UI for these platforms? I doubt any major publisher in their right mind would pass up the opportunity to sell their games on consoles if it were in any way feasible on the hardware, even if it were quite costly to adapt the UI, and even at the low display resolutions below 1280x720 which are common for console titles.

In my case, I don't need keyboard shortcuts when play Civ 5, for example. In fact, I don't touch the keyboard. I play with only my mouse, even a laptop trackpad works fine. The UI for this type of game could certainly be adapted for console. The limitations of 256MB RAM and weak CPU, on the other hand are not so easily overcome. This is a turn based game which is quite CPU-bound. Even desktops with powerful CPUs must wait quite a long time at the end of each turn for the A.I. in the later stages of any game with more than 5 or 6 civs. If you played this on an Xbox on a huge map, you could be waiting an hour or more for each turn to finish processing.

Every multiplatform multiplayer game I'm aware of must restrict the number of players for the console versions compared to the PC version. This is not due to the UI, but the slower CPU and the very limited RAM.

The UI for many popular MMOs is designed for keyboard and mouse, but it's clearly possible to be adapted in a way that works for consoles, as you mentioned above DCUO and the Final Fantasy MMO seemed to handle this just fine. There is nothing inherent in the gameplay mechanics of MMOs that would be impossible to play with a controller, it's the hardware limitations that have presented the challenge. Otherwise if it was all about the controller, considering the size of the installed base, I imagine we would have seen some sort of special MMO controller by now.
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November 20th, 2012, 14:14
Originally Posted by CountChocula View Post
Do you really believe the reason more MMOs and strategy games are not on console is solely due to the cost of adapting their UI for these platforms? I doubt any major publisher in their right mind would pass up the opportunity to sell their games on consoles if it were in any way feasible on the hardware, even if it were quite costly to adapt the UI, and even at the low display resolutions below 1280x720 which are common for console titles.
No, not solely - but it's one of the primary factors. I don't know why you underestimate the importance of UI.

Another factor is getting the market to latch on, and I think that the audience is unfairly perceived as unsophisticated.

In my case, I don't need keyboard shortcuts when play Civ 5, for example. In fact, I don't touch the keyboard. I play with only my mouse, even a laptop trackpad works fine. The UI for this type of game could certainly be adapted for console. The limitations of 256MB RAM and weak CPU, on the other hand are not so easily overcome. This is a turn based game which is quite CPU-bound. Even desktops with powerful CPUs must wait quite a long time at the end of each turn for the A.I. in the later stages of any game with more than 5 or 6 civs. If you played this on an Xbox on a huge map, you could be waiting an hour or more for each turn to finish processing.
Well, in the case of Civ 5 - I agree. But that's about as bloatwarish as they come. You have to develop the game with the platforms of choice in mind - and considering that Civ 5 runs like a turd on even the most powerful hardware once you reach mid-game, I think we can rule out consoles.

But Civ Revolution seems to be doing quite well on consoles and iPad.

Also, PS3 has 256 of video memory as well.

While the current consoles are getting increasingly outdated - they have more than sufficient CPU power to run a game like WoW - if settings were adjusted accordingly. We already have examples of MMOs with dozens of players on screen.

Every multiplatform multiplayer game I'm aware of must restrict the number of players for the console versions compared to the PC version. This is not due to the UI, but the slower CPU and the very limited RAM.
Then you're not aware of a lot of multiplayer games. But it's exactly like what you have to do with PCs - where you need settings appropriate to the hardware in question. You adjust visual fidelity according to what you have available. I'm not talking about console versions that look like their high-end PC brethren here.

The UI for many popular MMOs is designed for keyboard and mouse, but it's clearly possible to be adapted in a way that works for consoles, as you mentioned above DCUO and the Final Fantasy MMO seemed to handle this just fine. There is nothing inherent in the gameplay mechanics of MMOs that would be impossible to play with a controller, it's the hardware limitations that have presented the challenge. Otherwise if it was all about the controller, considering the size of the installed base, I imagine we would have seen some sort of special MMO controller by now.
No one has said it was impossible. In fact, I've said just the opposite. I'm just saying it's a challenge to take a modern MMO as we think of them today and adapt it for a console controller. Also, as I mentioned - GW2 is an exception. There are others too. But almost all current MMOs have a very large arsenal available to the player - with multiple hotbars required. Adapting that for a console is a challenge, no matter what you want to believe.
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November 20th, 2012, 16:38
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
But Civ Revolution seems to be doing quite well on consoles and iPad.
Civ revolution is an utter crap comparing to PC Civilizations versions. It fails even compared to the oldest and first Civilization for PC. But then again, I'll be real and say it's a game for iPhone, of course it's crappy compared to PC Civilizations.
Grab the free (in fact demo that allows you to play just 3 possible races) version to check if what I've said is true.

And while you're so thrilled about the amount of the games available for iPhone/iPad/iCrap, IMO AppStore games are just a huge pile of useless crap.
What's even worse in the whole scheme is that at least half of topgrossing games are declared as free - still there is an ingame store inside those "free" games that trick kids into spending hundreds of bucks - again to buy crap. Apple's AppStore "free" games system is probably the most sophisticated fraud since the WoW subscription model emerged. And I just can't wait the moment it becomes illegal (IIRC I've read somewhere that Australian court is already chasing the matter).

I was not impressed when I found not even one quality title in that rainforest called AppStore. Modern market economy became sell junk and not quality products economy.
Apple AppStore needs an enema. ASAP.
Last edited by joxer; November 20th, 2012 at 16:53.
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November 20th, 2012, 17:03
If the PS2 can run Final Fantasy XI, which was a huge MMO with tons of players, then there's no reason an Xbox 360 can't run an MMO, or even better, the Wii U or next generation of Xbox/PS.
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November 20th, 2012, 17:13
Originally Posted by joxer View Post
Civ revolution is an utter crap comparing to PC Civilizations versions. It fails even compared to the oldest and first Civilization for PC. But then again, I'll be real and say it's a game for iPhone, of course it's crappy compared to PC Civilizations.
Grab the free (in fact demo that allows you to play just 3 possible races) version to check if what I've said is true.
I'm not talking about how joxer the insane feels about it I'm talking about how well it has been received

And while you're so thrilled about the amount of the games available for iPhone/iPad/iCrap, IMO AppStore games are just a huge pile of useless crap.
What's even worse in the whole scheme is that at least half of topgrossing games are declared as free - still there is an ingame store inside those "free" games that trick kids into spending hundreds of bucks - again to buy crap. Apple's AppStore "free" games system is probably the most sophisticated fraud since the WoW subscription model emerged. And I just can't wait the moment it becomes illegal (IIRC I've read somewhere that Australian court is already chasing the matter).
At least you don't sound overly emotional or invested in any way. Obviously, your position is as neutral as can be. Good job!

I was not impressed when I found not even one quality title in that rainforest called AppStore. Modern market economy became sell junk and not quality products economy.
Apple AppStore needs an enema. ASAP.
The world is hardly worth living in, if joxer isn't impressed
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November 20th, 2012, 17:20
Sorry my dear favorite musketeer for having a spine and saying what I feel about things, for not sucking up to apple and con artists, for nor going with the flow just because something has been received by whatever others.
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November 20th, 2012, 17:24
Originally Posted by joxer View Post
Sorry my dear favorite musketeer for having a spine and saying what I feel about things, for not sucking up to apple and con artists, for nor going with the flow just because something has been received by whatever others.
Oh, no need to be sorry - it's great entertainment listening to a fanatic.

You either agree with joxer - or you don't have a spine, correct?
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November 20th, 2012, 17:33
No. It has nothing to do with me, please reread. When you do, you'll probably come to this conclusion:
You either agree with dartagnan or you're some extremist, zealot, fanatic or emotionally disturbed al-qaida member. But still - BENEATH the divinity called dartagnan as only him knows what normal ppl think, feel and like.
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November 20th, 2012, 17:34
I think you're floating somewhere above me

That said, chances are that you're either wrong or you agree with DArtagnan. Not my fault!
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November 20th, 2012, 17:43
Originally Posted by Fluent View Post
If the PS2 can run Final Fantasy XI, which was a huge MMO with tons of players, then there's no reason an Xbox 360 can't run an MMO, or even better, the Wii U or next generation of Xbox/PS.
The Wii U have a 4 year old GPU…
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November 20th, 2012, 20:42
I liked the video, I'm now officially excited about this game!

Imagine a Watch guild playing an ES game, mucho fun
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November 20th, 2012, 21:53
Yeah, like where would I find that time? DDO and this though are tempting.
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November 20th, 2012, 22:12
Originally Posted by xSamhainx View Post
Imagine a Watch guild playing an ES game, mucho fun
We have to pick all the same faction though. Or at least fill the survey the same way so we get all put into the same instance of the mega-server for a specific faction.

Still unsure about buying ES. Let say that if it have a 15$/month monthly sub I won't bother with it. GW2/DDO have spoiled me here I'm afraid.
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November 20th, 2012, 23:06
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
No, not solely - but it's one of the primary factors. I don't know why you underestimate the importance of UI.

Another factor is getting the market to latch on, and I think that the audience is unfairly perceived as unsophisticated.

Well, in the case of Civ 5 - I agree. But that's about as bloatwarish as they come. You have to develop the game with the platforms of choice in mind - and considering that Civ 5 runs like a turd on even the most powerful hardware once you reach mid-game, I think we can rule out consoles.

But Civ Revolution seems to be doing quite well on consoles and iPad.

Also, PS3 has 256 of video memory as well.

While the current consoles are getting increasingly outdated - they have more than sufficient CPU power to run a game like WoW - if settings were adjusted accordingly. We already have examples of MMOs with dozens of players on screen.

Then you're not aware of a lot of multiplayer games. But it's exactly like what you have to do with PCs - where you need settings appropriate to the hardware in question. You adjust visual fidelity according to what you have available. I'm not talking about console versions that look like their high-end PC brethren here.

No one has said it was impossible. In fact, I've said just the opposite. I'm just saying it's a challenge to take a modern MMO as we think of them today and adapt it for a console controller. Also, as I mentioned - GW2 is an exception. There are others too. But almost all current MMOs have a very large arsenal available to the player - with multiple hotbars required. Adapting that for a console is a challenge, no matter what you want to believe.
I believe I understand where you're coming from; I suppose my question is, if you believe the UI is the primary hurdle, are you suggesting that even with hardware advances in next gen consoles there will still not be many strategy games or MMOs?

As the upcoming consoles will be based on 64-bit PC architecture, with significantly improved hardware, in my view the impediments for this type of game are largely done away with. Whether the next generation of consoles will ever reach an attractive level of installed base comparable to the previous generations is another matter entirely, of course.

Originally Posted by azarhal View Post
We have to pick all the same faction though. Or at least fill the survey the same way so we get all put into the same instance of the mega-server for a specific faction.

Still unsure about buying ES. Let say that if it have a 15$/month monthly sub I won't bother with it. GW2/DDO have spoiled me here I'm afraid.
I know what you mean, I've also never been able to bring myself to pay a monthly subscription for any game. Hopefully it will not have any monthly subscription, but most free to play games are usually focused on finding overpowered loot so they can persuade people to spend money in an online store. That sort of thing seems like the opposite of the Elder Scrolls games, which have always been more about exploring the world and role playing your characters.
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November 20th, 2012, 23:17
Originally Posted by xSamhainx View Post
I liked the video, I'm now officially excited about this game!

Imagine a Watch guild playing an ES game, mucho fun
We already have a Watch guild playing DDO, but depending on cost we might eventually consider playing ESO; perhaps when it becomes F2P!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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November 21st, 2012, 13:30
Originally Posted by CountChocula View Post
I know what you mean, I've also never been able to bring myself to pay a monthly subscription for any game. Hopefully it will not have any monthly subscription, but most free to play games are usually focused on finding overpowered loot so they can persuade people to spend money in an online store. That sort of thing seems like the opposite of the Elder Scrolls games, which have always been more about exploring the world and role playing your characters.
This is why I mentioned GW2 and DDO, both game have a different financial models, but neither require a monthly sub. You still pay for content though. GW2: expac and main game. DDO: adventure packs. They also have "cash shop", but I don't use them.
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November 21st, 2012, 13:43
Originally Posted by CountChocula View Post
I believe I understand where you're coming from; I suppose my question is, if you believe the UI is the primary hurdle, are you suggesting that even with hardware advances in next gen consoles there will still not be many strategy games or MMOs?
As I said already, I believe it's only a matter of time before a developer overcomes the UI issues by making a simplified interface - much like GW2 does.

As for strategy games, no, I don't think we'll be seeing many of these on modern consoles - unless they change the control paradigm completely. At least, not complex turn-based strategy games as we know them.

Reason being that the market isn't perceived as large enough.

As the upcoming consoles will be based on 64-bit PC architecture, with significantly improved hardware, in my view the impediments for this type of game are largely done away with. Whether the next generation of consoles will ever reach an attractive level of installed base comparable to the previous generations is another matter entirely, of course.
Well, we'll see what happens.
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November 21st, 2012, 14:11
Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
We already have a Watch guild playing DDO, but depending on cost we might eventually consider playing ESO; perhaps when it becomes F2P!!
Didn't you mean if, not when?

On the other hand, you're right. For this game, "when" is the right word.
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