Sui Generis - Kickstarter Update #11, Items and Equipment

Has nothing to do with not wanting to support teams that are not well known (in fact I supported a few), but everything with showing what you want to do (and in sufficient detail or by illustrating with some concrete examples, not with some vague terms) and that you have the capabilities to do it. For what I value in games, that's very much missing from the Bare Mettle kickstarter.

Yup. This would make for a very nice gladiatorial arena simulator or wilderness exploration game. Maybe they need to start there and add in the other role-playing elements later?

I think they have given more than enough information to warrant a donation, but hey, that's my opinion and I don't expect everyone to agree. I'm not even a PC player but I would consider donating to this game because of how cool it sounds. No, we don't know every little detail about the game, but in my eyes that's ok. I'm willing to take a risk on a general vision that someone has and hope for the best.

Originally Posted by Fluent
So what's the point of Kickstater if nobody wants to support the underdogs who aren't well known? Seems to me like Kickstarter is completely pointless and only the well known people will do good on it. Sad.

I think they have been supported quite well.

A bunch of nobodies(in the industry) with limited info on what the game is actually going to be raised 80k. Pretty good I think.

The problem I think is they were asking for to much money since they aren't well known and there game isn't more fleshed out yet. If they would have had more of a game and not just some combat and physic's ( as nice as they were) they might have hit there goal.

Right now they are pitching a vision and not a game and they don't have the street cred for that. It's too bad as I really like what I do see.

Fair enough. I too like what I see and I also agree that 80k is pretty nice for having no "street cred" within the industry.

80k pounds, which is a lot more USD.

@Fluent, I'm happy to invest in a general vision if I understand it and think they can do it. The fact that they had to argue about getting a writer is a big warning sign to me. I also have no idea what "a ground breaking RPG for the PC that may just change the way you think about games" actually means.

Good point Dhruin, I forgot to take that into account.

80000 pounds = 128,248.0000 US dollars

Actually, the more I read about So Generic's game, the less I'm interested in it. The programmer bores me more and more as he gives details. I LIKE quests. To me, they are what gives direction in any crpg. No quests? Then you have some type of simulator, and I'm not interested. Can you retract a pledge?

Originally Posted by crpgnut
Actually, the more I read about So Generic's game, the less I'm interested in it. The programmer bores me more and more as he gives details. I LIKE quests. To me, they are what gives direction in any crpg. No quests? Then you have some type of simulator, and I'm not interested. Can you retract a pledge?

Careful, they never said there would be no quests, only that they would be attempting to make them highly dynamic:

We are not doing a typical quest with reward system but being hired to perform tasks will certainly be there. I will give an example of what might transpire in the game.

You are offered a valuable object to complete some task. This could be a lie, it could be a way to lure you into a trap and rob you, for example. If the reward does exist, you might decide to find out where the person offering it lives and look for it in their house rather than completing the task. You may get caught doing this, or you may even be hired by the same person to retrieve the stolen item. And so on and so forth.

You can certainly retract your pledge:
"Can I cancel a pledge?
By pledging, you are committing to supporting that person’s project; canceling that commitment is discouraged. If you must cancel, visit the project page and click “Manage Your Pledge.” At the bottom of the next page you’ll see the “Cancel Pledge” button."

…I'll reply to Dhruin later

…I knew that fanboi hat would get me in trouble…

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
Hehe, it's been a while since I worked on it… Trying to find my creative energy and the time to focus

But thanks for the offer, and who knows - I might take you up on it!

No problem! Best of luck in your developments! When in need just call =D

Originally Posted by Dhruin
…I knew that fanboi hat would get me in trouble…

I once got D'Artagnan into a hissy fit for calling something he said "disingenuous", so you gotta be careful with that word!

Your reply just confirms my point though - what sold you on PE were factors entirely outside of the actual pitch. And I am not saying that is wrong. (As a side my problem with it is not that I don't expect them to make at least a decent Infinity-Engine style game. My beef with them is that they decided to make a campaign straight out of the marketing department instead of using this opportunity to suggest and discuss something out of the ordinary, one of the dream games Avellone likes to talk about in his interviews).

As Asdraguuhl pointed out correctly an unknown team doesn't have that luxury. That's just a fact. My point is just that we need to be aware of the fact that we actually put the bar (regarding the pitch) much higher for these indies than we do for "big name"projects like Wasteland or PE - while at the same time, these same indies will usually have less resources to create and maintain that perfect pitch. I think that awareness may help us in judging the lower profile projects (not just Sui Generis, also stuff like Antharion, Aaimie, etc.) more fairly. It basically means that backers should be a little more involved, digging or asking for information before judging.

All in all there is quite a bit of info on SG if you look carefully through the (rewritten) KS main page, comments, Forums. Not denying there are still gaps either, and I understand where people are coming from that don't want to pledge for it. I have had my doubts as well.
Doing a less ambitous KS that allows them to further develop the systems for their dream game (year and a half to release for something like Sui Generis is overambitous anyway) is also what I hope they do if they don't make their target. A nice dungeoncrawler with this engine including lots of physics puzzles wouldn't be too bad, e.g..

Originally Posted by GhanBuriGhan
Your reply just confirms my point though - what sold you on PE were factors entirely outside of the actual pitch.

I disagree.
My impressions were very similar to Dhruin´s as stated here

Originally Posted by Dhruin
Pretty much everything I need to know short of direct spoilers. I have a rough feel for the likely size of the areas, the world map, the way you transition to maps, a rough idea of a typical combat encounter, the sort of quests I will encounter, the quality of the quests and the writing, how much emphasis is placed on multiple solutions and paths, what dialogue will feel like, how characters are developed, the balance of combat, exploration and dialogue and more.

and this stuff certainly did not stem solely from factors outside the pitch. The base for this info was there pretty much from day 1 and it was only reinforced by the wealth of further updates.
The pedigree certainly had a lot of influence in this case, but that´s because they´ve came with a pitch to which it was highly relevant. They did not announce, say, a flight simulator.

Note that his quote continues:

How do I know? Because I've played every single released game from both the company involved but also every single released game from the major development leads. Also, every single game from the main inspiration.

I agree however that we got pretty solid info on the game mechanics of PE over the course of the KS drive. However I'd like to point out that PE was already funded before most of the updates with that info came out.
With regards to info on Game mechanics there is a lot on SG - with a different emphasis, and ultimately we have no reinforcement of their statements from "prior knowledge". I maintain that that makes a big difference. What I mean is: If Avellone says e.g.: "we will focus on well developed characters and deep choices and conseqeunces" you not only believe him, you als know exactly what he means by that, because you know his games, his interviews, etc. If Bare Mettle says e.g. that they want a living breathing world and events that proceed even without player input, it means… almost nothing. However to explain it all, yet briefly, is probably not so simple.
Regarding info on the world, lore, the story/central conflict, the atmosphere - both games pitches are very poor, imho.

Originally Posted by GhanBuriGhan
Note that his quote continues:

Yes, hence my remark about the pedigree´s high relevance to the pitch.
The pitch was not only "an isometric, party-based computer RPG set in a new fantasy world", it was also "it will be made by guys who already delivered games of this type" + it was proposed as a homage to Baldur’s Gate, Icewind Dale and Planescape: Torment.
Personally I don´t consider that as something outside the pitch.

Well, I do. So basically we agree, I think, exept on semantics.

Originally Posted by sakichop

The problem I think is they were asking for to much money since they aren't well known and there game isn't more fleshed out yet. If they would have had more of a game and not just some combat and physic's ( as nice as they were) they might have hit there goal.

Right now they are pitching a vision and not a game and they don't have the street cred for that. It's too bad as I really like what I do see.

They do not ask for much money. They asked a little from expectedly a large number of people. It would have taken 15,000 backers giving roughly $15 each to meet the goal.

On presenting their game: could be hard as the game is supposed to innovate compared to what is usually done. The game aims at taking up the progression in certain aspects of gaming where the progression was dropped off.

What quantity of game would have it been necessary to show? Consider the mechanics that are to be involved, very hard.

The sum itself is not much when one remembers that this game is about originality and treading back on developpment spaces most companies, small or big, relinquished treading on.

If unsuccessful, it will once again confirm that gamers want the same old. Contrary to the urban myth that gamers support evolution, that corporations are the bit that prevents innovation in gaming, gamers are extremelly conservative.

They can rush to fund to millions projects that will give the same old, redressed and revamped here and there and state that giving the same sum or less to an experimental project is too much, and that the project fail because the studio ask for too much by asking for a quarter of what a very conservative project asks for starters.

The sum asked by the studio is not much but they were naive enough to think that gamers want what they say. The studio members deceived themselves into thinking that this project could sell only on its propositions because it could fit what gamers say they want. And that kickstarter was a platform for innovative projects to be funded.

Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur
If unsuccessful, it will once again confirm that gamers want the same old. Contrary to the urban myth that gamers support evolution, that corporations are the bit that prevents innovation in gaming, gamers are extremelly conservative.

They can rush to fund to millions projects that will give the same old, redressed and revamped here and there and state that giving the same sum or less to an experimental project is too much, and that the project fail because the studio ask for too much by asking for a quarter of what a very conservative project asks for starters.

You have hit the nail right on the head here ChienAboyeur. That is exactly the feeling I had reading through a lot of KS related posts at RPGWatch.

Who really believes that gamers like innovation?
Most people will always choose the familiar - that's proven by the endless sequels and remakes.
On the other hand something new failing proves nothing: real innovation can't be anything but controversial since you can't possibly predict people's reaction to something they haven't seen before.

Hah, but it's a paradox isn't it? Most gamers do indeed choose what's familiar but then they bitch that it's not innovative enough. In short, they want more of the same but different!