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Default I love a story with a happy ending.

July 17th, 2013, 13:35
Agree with what Omega said above: It's the disproportionality of the response that is worrying. It was prolably "lawful" but the article I linked above shows pretty thoroughly how problematic the "stand your ground" law is - it includes case examples that even right wingers should find deeply troubling.
I think that is the more pertinent discussion, over the particular case (Martin/ Zimmermann).
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July 17th, 2013, 14:26
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
Here, let me translate:

Was her dress above her knees? Could you see her belly button? Was she wearing heels? Showing cleavage? SHE WAS ASKING FOR IT!

Um, yup, you are a major league bigot.
No TM was a wanna be thug who assaulted the wrong person and got killed for it.

The trial explained it all pretty well. Nice bigotry from you throwing out something not related at all. Are you sure you didn't advise the prosecution?
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July 17th, 2013, 16:55
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Why would there be DNA under Martin's fingernails? Martin was punching him not scratching him. There were abrasions on his knuckles that were consistent with him striking someone.
Yes, you're right about the nails. It seems silly now.
I don't understand why Reuters (my source) mentioned it, while not quoting the autopsy report that said Martin had (just) "a small abrasion, no more than a quarter-inch in size, on his left ring finger below the knuckle".

But hey, I did mention the fist in my post.

Anyway. The thing I don't understand is that Zimmerman is allowed to fire a bullet through his opponent's heart and gets away with it.
The police in my country is allowed to use arms, but even the police would have a lot to answer for in a similar situation. If they see no alternative but to grab their gun, they are expected to aim at non-vital parts of the body.

I'm under the impression that with 'Stand your ground' people are allowed to be judge and executioner whenever they feel seriously threatened.

I was quite shocked when reading the article GhanBuryGhan linked. (Thanks GBG). To me it sounds like the old days of the Wild West have returned.

Utlimately, won't it lead to a spiral of violence when friends or families of victims feel there's no justice? Or when justice is a lottery?

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July 17th, 2013, 17:08
Well, we certainly wouldn't want people to take any responsibility for their situation.

I know I find it wise to wear all black and sneak around back yards at night and I'm particularly fond of wearing clown shoes in mine fields and my personal favorite is to walk up to a military base wearing a fake suicide vest. I'm not a threat at all so I should be perfectly safe. I'm just being me and anyone that says otherwise is clearly a raging racist!

edit- while we're at it, I'm curious about something. The theory is that Zimmerman is guilty because he escalated the situation. Funny, I didn't see any testimony about sweet little Trayvon running away from the conflict. In fact, the only eyewitness testimony we've got is that sweet little Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman. Certainly wasn't shot in the back, was he. Why do y'all demand that Zimmerman walk away but have no similar demand for sweet little Trayvon? Because he's black?

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July 17th, 2013, 17:22
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Well, we certainly wouldn't want people to take any responsibility for their situation.

I know I find it wise to wear all black and sneak around back yards at night and I'm particularly fond of wearing clown shoes in mine fields and my personal favorite is to walk up to a military base wearing a fake suicide vest. I'm not a threat at all so I should be perfectly safe. I'm just being me and anyone that says otherwise is clearly a raging racist!

edit- while we're at it, I'm curious about something. The theory is that Zimmerman is guilty because he escalated the situation. Funny, I didn't see any testimony about sweet little Trayvon running away from the conflict. In fact, the only eyewitness testimony we've got is that sweet little Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman. Certainly wasn't shot in the back, was he. Why do y'all demand that Zimmerman walk away but have no similar demand for sweet little Trayvon? Because he's black?
Because Zimmerman is the one that has a gun. In my opinion a gun brings heavy responsibility.

As for the behaviour and clothes, that's a slippery slope. Highly subjective.
I don't think certain behaviour and/or certain clothes warrant instant death penalty.

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July 17th, 2013, 17:30
Part of the unspoken mode of thinking in all this is that we, as citizens, are supposed to be apathetic and let our 'betters' handle things for us, whether that be appointed politicians or cops.

I myself tire of that immensely. Sure, you can accuse me of being an anarchist or vigilante, but deep down (in the words of the prosecutor, "in my heart" - haha!l), I think I have a right to know and act on things that could impact me or my family.

Should Zimmerman have waited for the cops? Hell no. Should Trayvon have run? No. Should Trayvon have acted like a fool and attacked some guy for walking up to him and asking what he was doing? Therein lies my problem with this entire fiasco: people, be they kids or otherwise, acting like idiots for the sake of proving something.
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July 17th, 2013, 18:30
Originally Posted by Omega View Post
Zimmerman shot Martin through the heart.
Whereas Zimmerman's wounds were said to be insignificant.
Looked plenty beat up to me. I am sure he would be fine eventually but there's a fine line between beat up and dead.

Originally Posted by Omega View Post
None of Zimmerman's DNA was found on Martin's sweatshirt or in scrapings of Martin's fingernails.
And that means that zimmerman did not attack martin, didn't even manage to defend himself at all.

Originally Posted by Omega View Post
The police told him not to pursue.
Again, has nothing to do with anything.

Because of these statements I doubt very much Zimmerman would have gotten away with it in my country. Here the violence used to stop someone has to be within reason, appropriate. A fist can not be answered with a bullet through the heart.
So you have to wait til you are dead to defend yourself. I guess once martin got the gun and shot him he could defend himself.

(Besides the fact that carrying a gun is illegal here and acting against the police's advice/order will not plead in your favor when on trial.)

Florida's 'Stand your ground' strikes me as rather bizarre. "People fearing for their lives can use deadly force without having to retreat from a confrontation, even when it is possible", right? I regard it as an invitation to carry a gun and use it; kill instantly on fear of being killed.

I wonder what would have happened, legally, if Martin had carried a gun and if he had aimed for Zimmerman's heart just a bit quicker than Zimmerman did.

Edit: the one that dies is 'just' unlucky, the one that survives is free and gets away with it?
In all likelihood if you shoot someone and there's no witnesses and there is some kind of altercation, you will not be going to jail in most every country in the world. And that's the way it should be.

The only difference with the stand your ground is it shortcuts the normal process. If someone breaks in your house or attacks you you aren't obligated to back away. And why should you? But again I doubt it would have had any effect on the eventual outcome, this just protects people who are defending themselves and cuts out lengthy and pointless trials like this one. Except if people riot in the streets apparently.
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July 17th, 2013, 18:36
Originally Posted by Drithius View Post
Part of the unspoken mode of thinking in all this is that we, as citizens, are supposed to be apathetic and let our 'betters' handle things for us, whether that be appointed politicians or cops.
Exactly. People can't be allowed to protect themselves.

And you'd be waiting for the cops for at least an hour in florida.

Originally Posted by Drithius View Post
Therein lies my problem with this entire fiasco: people, be they kids or otherwise, acting like idiots for the sake of proving something.
Choice and consequences. I meet a couple trayvons every week of all different colors, I have a fair idea exactly what happened. I don't carry a gun but keeping from giving a citizen's asskicking is a major temptation for me sometimes.

And knowing some of them DO have guns is the biggest deciding factor against in the most extreme cases so guess the deterrent works.
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July 17th, 2013, 19:02
Originally Posted by Toff View Post
No TM was a wanna be thug who assaulted the wrong person and got killed for it.

The trial explained it all pretty well.
You shouldn't believe the testimony from a known liar and troublemaker.
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July 17th, 2013, 19:05
Originally Posted by Drithius View Post
Should Trayvon have acted like a fool and attacked some guy for walking up to him and asking what he was doing?
There is absolutely no proof that is what happened. Just the testimony of a known liar and troublemaker, willing to say anything to save his ass from the electrocution chair.
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July 17th, 2013, 19:07
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
No, he was staying at a home in the neighborhood.

No, he cut through the neighborhood on the way. All the guy had to do is stop and say who he was and where he was going. Or at worst wait for the police, if zimmerman fantastically did pull a gun on him. I have done it myself a couple times, annoying but nothing to make me attack someone.


Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
Also, you don't know who initiated the conflict. So much wrong in what you post.
Yes a decrepit middle aged man attacked a teenager ten times as fit and strong as he was, but couldn't manage to shoot him until 6 minutes into the conflict even though he was the aggressor. That's a totally likely scenario.

Yes, I'm sure you think you speak for everyone.
Only people who live on planet earth and not fantasy island.
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July 17th, 2013, 19:11
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
You shouldn't believe the testimony from a known liar and troublemaker.
This is the falacy of ad hominem attack. The real one, not the typical internet misuse where someone hurt your feelings so they can't be right.

You can't discount someone's testimony on something completely unrelated. Especially when it was a judge attempting to unfairly bankrupt him so he coult not afford to pay a lawyer. He made the bail bond exactly enough to steal every cent that he had, to leave no money to pay a lawyer. Sounds like he was assumed guilty from the start, to me. Too bad jurors didn't buy that.
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July 17th, 2013, 19:12
Originally Posted by ManWhoJaped View Post
No, he cut through the neighborhood on the way. All the guy had to do is stop and say who he was and where he was going. Or at worst wait for the police, if zimmerman fantastically did pull a gun on him. I have done it myself a couple times, annoying but nothing to make me attack someone.
Wrong again. He was living in that neighborhood with his relatives. You have a very distorted view of reality and make no sense whatsoever. If someone threatens you with a gun, and is going to shoot you, and you have martial arts training to be able to defend yourself, you will try to take that person down. Completely valid response. What's not valid is running around, brandishing a gun, as some self stylized cowboy / cop.
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July 17th, 2013, 19:15
Originally Posted by ManWhoJaped View Post
This is the falacy of ad hominem attack
You are obviously clueless about criminal self-defense testimony…
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July 17th, 2013, 19:15
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
Wrong again. He was living in that neighborhood with his relatives. You have a very distorted view of reality and make no sense whatsoever. If someone threatens you with a gun, and is going to shoot you, and you have martial arts training to be able to defend yourself, you will try to take that person down. Completely valid response. What's not valid is running around, brandishing a gun, as some self stylized cowboy / cop.
Except that didn't happen, and we know it didn't happen. Would have been a short struggle if so.

If he was staying there, even easier. Hi, I'm trayvon. I'm staying with my uncle joe. The map I saw didn't say that but it's not a big point.

A guy saw a stranger, he has the right to ask him who the hell he is and why he's hanging around his neighborhood. Especially if he's on the neighborhood watch.
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July 17th, 2013, 19:19
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
You are obviously clueless about criminal self-defense testimony…
They constantly use the testimony of criminals in court so explain that. Oh wait you are just making up crap as you go….
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July 17th, 2013, 19:35
You don't know anything obviously. I'm done interacting with a totally clueless ass as yourself. Go back to the codex, where idiots like you belong.
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July 17th, 2013, 20:06
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
You don't know anything obviously. I'm done interacting with a totally clueless ass as yourself. Go back to the codex, where idiots like you belong.
Why can't you make anything but an emotional based argument, why is that? And if so why even bother, indeed? There's always facebook and twitter where you can get fat housewives to give you +1 for every post. I guess any neighborhood watch members stopping you will get an immediate attack.

If you discount the testimony of everyone who is a defendent why it would be almost like you don't believe in reasonable doubt. I guess that we should have mob rule where whoever screams the loudest gets their way. Lawyers can argue what they want, doesn't make it so.

The funniest part is everyone who wants to punish zimmerman can't keep their story straight.

Did he attack him with the gun drawn? If so how did he get beaten up? And isn't it self defense to keep a gun out of the hands of an attacker?

Did he have the gun drawn but not attack him? Again, same issues here but at least it's slightly plausible.

If he didn't pull his gun then isn't it self defense to pull it after several minutes of being beaten by some hooligan?

You guys wander between scenarios at will, because even hypothetically there's no plausible scenario where this guy is a murderer.
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July 17th, 2013, 20:50
Thrasher obviously has important info about what happened.

Thrasher, you should immediately contact the Judge and Attorneys and share with them your insightful knowledge which will obviously change everything.

You have all the answers, not the people put on the stand to testify.
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July 17th, 2013, 20:54
The myth of St. Trayvon

http://communities.washingtontimes.c…DDaJU.facebook

————————————————————

WASHINGTON, July 15, 2013 ― On February 26, 2012, George Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer, saw Trayvon Martin. Minutes later Martin was dead and Zimmerman would see his life transformed by opportunistic politicians and the racial grievance industry, both of which found him to be an irresistible target.
Every story needs a villain and a saint.

The left is spinning this as a narrative of American racism. Vital to that narrative is the image of Martin as an innocent boy, almost a child. The media did its part by never showing photos of the 6’2”, 17-year old with gold capped teeth that he was when he died, but only as a slim, 12-year old.

The real Trayvon Martin is lost in the hagiography. He was no longer an innocent child. He chose his path, and had that fatal encounter not taken place, it was leading him into the criminal justice system.

Martin should have been arrested twice. If he had been, it might have changed his path. He was suspended twice from Miami Dade schools because he had burglary tools and possession of a dozen pieces of women’s jewelry.

Text messages recovered from Martin’s phone show photos of guns and Martin using drugs. More disturbing are Martin’s text messages where he describes himself as a “gangsta,” talks about fighting, talks about buying and using drugs and asks a friend if he will share a .380. semi automatic pistol.

The Conservative Tree House did an amazing job of investigating the case in a way the mainstream media would not. They discovered in the last hour of his life, Martin tried to buy a “blunt.” A blunt is a small cigar, which is hollowed out then filled with marijuana. He also bought the iconic Skittles and Arizona Watermelon iced tea. Those were not because he was hungry or thirsty or even getting them for someone else. Those two products are key ingredients in an urban drug drink called “Lean Purple.”

When these embarrassing facts about Martin were released, the left went into overdrive to hide them and simply drop them down the memory hole. Benjamin Crump, the family attorney, called the texts and photos, “irrelevant.”
They were not irrelevant for the trial (even though the jury did not see them) and they are definitely not irrelevant for the battle for the narrative that is now being fought.

President Obama, operating on the theory that a crisis should never be allowed to go to waste, called for further gun control in memory of Trayvon Martin. Obama did not comment about the other young black men like Trayvon Martin who had been killed in Chicago where the Second Amendment is all but repealed.

The left continues to push the narrative that America is a racist nation, George Zimmerman was a crazed, racist wannabe cop and Trayvon Martin was an innocent child.

None of that is true.

Trayvon Martin was a product of American liberal social policies. A single mother raised him. His school was more concerned about appeasing the civil rights hucksters than whether Martin was educated and taught basic responsibilities.
The story of Martin’s life is not irrelevant. It is the major cause of what happened that night he encountered Zimmerman. The left has tried to demonize Zimmerman and has tried to canonize St. Trayvon.

The truth is that Martin was a 17-year-old wannabe thug who was the architect of his own demise. That is the story that should be told. Perhaps if that story and the truth about Martin were told, it might prevent the next Trayvon Martin.

Read more: http://communities.washingtontimes.c…#ixzz2ZKYhuSgI
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