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Default I love a story with a happy ending.

July 17th, 2013, 21:10
hahaha

When these embarrassing facts about Martin were released
What a load of crap. These conservative weenies are desperate to make him look like a thug that deserved to get shot. They are going straight to hell. No doubt.
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July 17th, 2013, 21:11
I see guys cut through my neighborhood every day. they don't live here and many of them look like thugs. I'd not mind having someone stop them and find out their names and ask why they are there, and maybe write them down in case there's a crime. Better yet I'd like someone to write down the license plates of the groups of guys in trucks driving really slow through my neighborhood, obviously looking for stuff to steal. Such as my upright toolchest that got stolen just last week.

I say the guy is pretty brave to go up to them at all. I wouldn't do it unless I had a gun, either, and this is why.
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July 17th, 2013, 21:11
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
hahaha



What a load of crap. These conservative weenies are desperate to make him look like a thug that deserved to get shot. They are going straight to hell. No doubt.
Ah so facts just don't matter then, what was I thinking.
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July 17th, 2013, 21:18
It was Martin's fault that some hopped up wanna-be vigilante with an over-inflated sense of power and importance due to our gun-nut culture STALKED, HUNTED, CHASED and CONFRONTED a kid with a soda and some skittles? Um, no. That is just mind-numbingly wrong.

First point where we should have basic common sense agreement: Zimmerman stalked and hunted Martin, Zimmerman disobeyed 911 to continue hunting Martin, Zimmerman further disobeyed 911 to get out of his car to chase Martin, and (completely undeniable) Zimmerman shot Martin with clear intent to kill.

Why did he look suspicious? Because he was black. Plain and simple. All that other talk-radio crap is irrelevant - Zimmerman had no idea about any of that, just that because he lives in a country where black = thug, he felt emboldened to hunt down a kid.

Racism is a huge thing in this country - and it has gotten WORSE since 2008.

OK, reality check … we are all in agreement that racism is still a major factor in the country, right? That the color of the skin dictates job opportunities, treatment in stores, treatment under the law, etc? Right? We all acknowledge that the power structure in our country is white, male, Christian, and that within our lifetimes there have been legal differences based on skin color, right? Just being sure we are all operating in the same reality.

We all acknowledge that for the same crime, a black person is ~2 times more likely to go to prison, and even if both white and black are convicted, the black person gets a 25% longer sentence, right? THIS is reality. Another reality - if the races were reversed, there is absolutely no doubt that a black Zimmerman would have been held, his gun taken, questioned, tested, and on and on. The police showed both incompetence and good ole boy racism in their handling … and THAT in no small part hampered the ability to prosecute.

Talk radio morons like to point to the end of the Civil War as the end of racism. Um, again pure fantasy. Within my life there were laws subjugating blacks to unequal treatment, and even where there weren't laws there was tacit acceptance of racism - black & white couples were regularly beaten (the black person, of course) well into the 70s. And nowhere worse than in the south.

Neighborhood Watch is SUPPOSED to be about keeping an eye out for genuine suspicious activity and REPORTING it. That is ALL. Zimmerman was an armed vigilante, plain and simple. He has no special legal standing. In fact, the one with the more legal standing for a 'stand your ground' defense was Martin - after all, he was the one being hunted.

Also, this is yet another HUGE reminder of just how screwed up our gun-nut culture is. Without the gun, Zimmerman would possibly have listened to the REAL law enforcement and not gone hunting Martin. The police would have shown up, found Martin was well within his rights being in the neighborhood, discovered that Zimmerman was yet another paranoid racist with white male rage issues, and the night would have been done.

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July 17th, 2013, 21:35
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
It was Martin's fault that some hopped up wanna-be vigilante with an over-inflated sense of power and importance due to our gun-nut culture STALKED, HUNTED, CHASED and CONFRONTED a kid with a soda and some skittles? Um, no. That is just mind-numbingly wrong.
Oh my god he was CONFRONTED?! CONFRONTED? My GOD! By the neighborhood watch!!!! Better kill that nazi.

Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
First point where we should have basic common sense agreement: Zimmerman stalked and hunted Martin, Zimmerman disobeyed 911 to continue hunting Martin, Zimmerman further disobeyed 911 to get out of his car to chase Martin, and
He DISOBEYED?! He followed someone and TALKED to him, clearly he is a nazi. He TALKED to other people all day in the same manner but didn't get beaten by them, or shoot them. Oh wait this is just BS.

(completely undeniable) Zimmerman shot Martin with clear intent to kill.
Then he did a bad job of it to get his ass beaten for several minutes first. Again, is there a struggle for the gun, or not? If so obviously there's no intent. If not then obviously he only pulled the gun as a last ditch effort.

Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
Why did he look suspicious? Because he was black. Plain and simple. All that other talk-radio crap is irrelevant - Zimmerman had no idea about any of that, just that because he lives in a country where black = thug, he felt emboldened to hunt down a kid.
Just look at the real pictures of him, not him as a 12 year old.

Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
Racism is a huge thing in this country - and it has gotten WORSE since 2008.

OK, reality check … we are all in agreement that racism is still a major factor in the country, right?
No.

Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
That the color of the skin dictates job opportunities, treatment in stores, treatment under the law, etc? Right? We all acknowledge that the power structure in our country is white, male, Christian, and that within our lifetimes there have been legal differences based on skin color, right? Just being sure we are all operating in the same reality.
Clearly not since you seem to think anyone who has anything got it through divine favor, not hard work.

Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post

We all acknowledge that for the same crime, a black person is ~2 times more likely to go to prison, and even if both white and black are convicted, the black person gets a 25% longer sentence, right? THIS is reality. Another reality - if the races were reversed, there is absolutely no doubt that a black Zimmerman would have been held, his gun taken, questioned, tested, and on and on. The police showed both incompetence and good ole boy racism in their handling … and THAT in no small part hampered the ability to prosecute.
haha I want to learn what reality you live in. I can't remember the last time there was an outcry over a white murder with a black killer, not since OJ.

Of course there was the one where the black guy killed some white kid then barged into their home on christmas day a year later to gloat. But that was not covered by the mainstream news.

Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
Talk radio morons like to point to the end of the Civil War as the end of racism. Um, again pure fantasy. Within my life there were laws subjugating blacks to unequal treatment, and even where there weren't laws there was tacit acceptance of racism - black & white couples were regularly beaten (the black person, of course) well into the 70s. And nowhere worse than in the south.
Florida is not really the south. There's like 5 white people in the whole place once you take out east coast retirees.

Also zimmerman isn't white by any shake of the stick so how does any of this racist rant accusation matter?

Again this guy does this all the time and only got beat up by this one guy. Wonder why.

Neighborhood Watch is SUPPOSED to be about keeping an eye out for genuine suspicious activity and REPORTING it. That is ALL. Zimmerman was an armed vigilante, plain and simple. He has no special legal standing. In fact, the one with the more legal standing for a 'stand your ground' defense was Martin - after all, he was the one being hunted.
You don't need any legal standing to talk to someone and ask who they are and where they are going.

Also, this is yet another HUGE reminder of just how screwed up our gun-nut culture is. Without the gun, Zimmerman would possibly have listened to the REAL law enforcement and not gone hunting Martin. The police would have shown up, found Martin was well within his rights being in the neighborhood, discovered that Zimmerman was yet another paranoid racist with white male rage issues, and the night would have been done.
Again he is not white in any way, shape, or form. He has a jewish last name and is mostly latino, looks 100% latino.

He thought he saw something suspicious and he talked to the guy, what an insane nazi, better kill him.
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July 17th, 2013, 21:43
Originally Posted by txa1265
OK, reality check … we are all in agreement that racism is still a major factor in the country, right?
Originally Posted by ManWhoJaped View Post
No.
OK, then you have absolutely no clue about reality or the way the world works.

Which is why I checked in - wanted to see who was rational, and who was living in the haze of talk radio post-racial fantasy.

We live more in Steve Jobs post-PC world than we do a post-racial world.

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July 17th, 2013, 21:57
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
OK, then you have absolutely no clue about reality or the way the world works.

Which is why I checked in - wanted to see who was rational, and who was living in the haze of talk radio post-racial fantasy.

We live more in Steve Jobs post-PC world than we do a post-racial world.
Everyone outside the USA agrees that the USA is motivated 100% by racism. Not to say there's no racism but dude you don't even know that the shooter is 3/4 cuban and 1/4 jewish. And racism comes up every single time a black person is involved with violence with a nonblack…yet the overwhelming amount of violence in the country is black on black so even if he were white this doesn't hold up it's just a lame excuse.

If he were a skinhead with tattoos then I might buy it but even then, the guy has a right to talk to people and he does so all day long with no incident til now. This isn't the first black guy he came across they are almost all black in his area.
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July 17th, 2013, 22:00
Even the worst racist isn't going to shoot someone just because he's black, what a joke. If thatw ere the case he'd have killed 100 people by now.
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July 17th, 2013, 22:11
Originally Posted by ManWhoJaped View Post
yet the overwhelming amount of violence in the country is black on black so even if he were white this doesn't hold up it's just a lame excuse.
Actually, that is incorrect - in fact, when it comes to overall crime and arrests and violent crime … it is white people that dominate. What *is* true is that black crime statistics are higher than their population fraction. But that is very different than the raw numbers.

Just to clarify - I AM an American, a middle-aged white Christian male.

I am well aware of my 'white privilege' as well as my 'male privilege'.

I am a runner, and I never have to think about where or when I run. People greet me everywhere - I have been traveling a lot to Kentucky for work this year (cough cough 'flexible glass' cough), and many neighborhoods have 'race-track' shaped roads. So to add distance around the hotel I stay at, I do repeat loops around this one 0.95 mile road. No one thinks twice - they smile and wave.
- I have black friends who are VERY conscious about where and when they run. Numerous times they have had the police called on them.
- A woman who is part of a Facebook running club I belong to and who ran a marathon with me last year got kidnapped from the road during a run in her town. And if you look at where I live, this is not exactly urban central. As a man I have not had to concern myself about that sort of safety for the almost 25 years I've run.

Numerous studies have shown that people still harbor racist reactions and suppositions, and there are loads of examples of where the 'most qualified candidate' always just happens to be a white male.

My point - regardless of the mechanics of how this all went down (most of which we will never know), ignoring race is very similar to ignoring the gun.

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July 17th, 2013, 22:14
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
OK, then you have absolutely no clue about reality or the way the world works.

Which is why I checked in - wanted to see who was rational, and who was living in the haze of talk radio post-racial fantasy.

We live more in Steve Jobs post-PC world than we do a post-racial world.
Save yourself the time. MWJ is one of a very few completely worthless turds that goes on my ignore list.
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July 17th, 2013, 22:18
Originally Posted by ManWhoJaped View Post
Even the worst racist isn't going to shoot someone just because he's black, what a joke. If thatw ere the case he'd have killed 100 people by now.
What I was saying was:
- The initial 'profiling' marked Martin as suspicious based on a racist presumption.
- The armed militia mentality of so many Americans results in way too many deaths. In this situation Zimmerman felt emboldened to confront Martin whereas he should have listened to the law and let the police do their job.

So the shooting isn't because he was black but was indirectly related, if you get my meaning.

It is also interesting that gun deaths have increased significantly in states with 'stand your ground' laws (even if that law wasn't part of the circumstances) … even as the rates drop in every other state. More guns, more 'gun friendly laws' = more death.

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July 17th, 2013, 22:22
That's a pretty obvious cause and effect. How about murder rates?
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July 17th, 2013, 23:06
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
Actually, that is incorrect - in fact, when it comes to overall crime and arrests and violent crime … it is white people that dominate. What *is* true is that black crime statistics are higher than their population fraction. But that is very different than the raw numbers.

Just to clarify - I AM an American, a middle-aged white Christian male.

I am well aware of my 'white privilege' as well as my 'male privilege'.

I am a runner, and I never have to think about where or when I run. People greet me everywhere - I have been traveling a lot to Kentucky for work this year (cough cough 'flexible glass' cough), and many neighborhoods have 'race-track' shaped roads. So to add distance around the hotel I stay at, I do repeat loops around this one 0.95 mile road. No one thinks twice - they smile and wave.
- I have black friends who are VERY conscious about where and when they run. Numerous times they have had the police called on them.
- A woman who is part of a Facebook running club I belong to and who ran a marathon with me last year got kidnapped from the road during a run in her town. And if you look at where I live, this is not exactly urban central. As a man I have not had to concern myself about that sort of safety for the almost 25 years I've run.

Numerous studies have shown that people still harbor racist reactions and suppositions, and there are loads of examples of where the 'most qualified candidate' always just happens to be a white male.

My point - regardless of the mechanics of how this all went down (most of which we will never know), ignoring race is very similar to ignoring the gun.
Statistically per capita black on black crime is just overwhelming. Especially when you are talking about stranger on stranger crime which is overwhelmingly the only thing worth discussing.

Personally I had a complaint against me for being "racist" because a neighbor was running a crackhouse and I reported them. But guess what? A few months later a guy was shot on my doorstep and a few months after that they were arrested on drug charges. My point is the accusation of racism is overwhelingly just complete BS. It's every single time there is a black crime, even when the perpetrator is black.

Some old lady calling the cops on you is a lot different than murdering someone at random due to race. In fact it doesn't matter why the hell he thought he was suspicious. There's no excuse to beat him for that, or even if he screamed the N word over and over. But if he had been doing that then he'd no doubt have been reported to the police. Again the guy was doing this every day and had no problems until now.

Still no one can come up with a straight story about how this racist murder occurred. It makes no sense a guy has no trouble til his forties then he suddenly murders this guy over race.

It makes even less sense because as I pointed out many times he's not white anyway. That doesn't make him immune to being a racist but I can't even think of a latino who seemed even mildly racist to me, except maybe towards white people.

If he were white and he were part of some gang, or affiliated with some hate group like you know, every single case of racially motivated murder, that would be another thing.

If he is like the old ladies who call the police on a scary looking black man then he is a dumbass but it changes nothing at all.

EDIT: and if you do live in the south wait til things are like california. You will be hearing about people sued by the people who broke into their house on a daily basis. Not in the news, though, just from people you know whose lives have been ruined by a system that protects the thugs over everyone else.
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July 17th, 2013, 23:16
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
That's a pretty obvious cause and effect. How about murder rates?
Yeah he caused it by simply talking to him so it's his fault. So we should cower at home. Point is there's no justification for attacking someone, especially not someone half your size and strength and twice your age. That you might get shot also makes it common sense, and taking this away just helps the criminals (like Martin seems to be).

Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
Save yourself the time. MWJ is one of a very few completely worthless turds that goes on my ignore list.
Yet you are the one who went mental with name calling after 3 posts. If you can't discuss things logically then you have nothing to say.
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July 17th, 2013, 23:30
We are going in circles. Unless there is something genuinely new, let's just drop it.

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July 17th, 2013, 23:35
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
We are going in circles. Unless there is something genuinely new, let's just drop it.
Not really, now we have come to the root of it. The victim caused the crime is the whole of your argument. Of course if he stayed home it would not have happened. That's true for most crime, though.
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July 17th, 2013, 23:40
Originally Posted by ManWhoJaped View Post
Why can't you make anything but an emotional based argument, why is that? And if so why even bother, indeed? There's always facebook and twitter where you can get fat housewives to give you +1 for every post. I guess any neighborhood watch members stopping you will get an immediate attack.
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July 17th, 2013, 23:43
Originally Posted by GhanBuriGhan View Post
It's the disproportionality of the response that is worrying.
Disproportionality of violence is something that people talk about in air conditioned rooms far removed from the scene of such acts. The lines in real life are significantly blurrier.

Hindsight allows us to see what the exact level of force necessary to end the threat likely was. Expecting people to know that ahead of time, say, while their head is getting slammed against pavement is just plain silly.
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July 17th, 2013, 23:52
Originally Posted by Omega View Post
Thrasher's

+10 from me! (No, not fat nor a housewife, just hot - must be the local sunny summery weather…)
Sounds like you better keep it up or else you will get yelled at or beaten for disagreeing.
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July 17th, 2013, 23:53
Originally Posted by CrazyIrish View Post
Disproportionality of violence is something that people talk about in air conditioned rooms far removed from the scene of such acts. The lines in real life are significantly blurrier.

Hindsight allows us to see what the exact level of force necessary to end the threat likely was. Expecting people to know that ahead of time, say, while their head is getting slammed against pavement is just plain silly.
That is by far the best post in this thread so far.

I'm sure there will still be some people here in denial, but what you said is as close to objective truth as we're going to get.
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