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January 14th, 2013, 14:09
Life is not fair get used to it! Never has been and never will. We can try to make it better but that's a universal fact. Were not all special.

Now to get back on topic sex in CD Projekt RED games isn't nothing new.

"We must stand strong my fellow watchers against the horde of red trolls."- The Couchpotato
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January 14th, 2013, 16:12
Originally Posted by Couchpotato View Post

Now to get back on topic sex in CD Projekt RED games isn't nothing new.
Now ain't that the truth!

CD Projekt has never let me down with the Witcher games so I have utmost confidence in them.
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January 14th, 2013, 18:06
Originally Posted by Raggie View Post
The problem is that female characters are depicted more often as villains or victims than heroes and always designed for male gaze, with sexiness as the first and foremost (and sometimes only) characteristic. The issue isn't the sexpot on this trailer, the issue is that there's very little of anything else.
While I agree with the lack of heroines, I would cease to use the expression "male gaze". The concept is an unholy blend between feminism, sexism, gender conservatism and sexual conservatism. It diminishes both women and men, blending a sinister form of slutshaming (that frame female extroverts as "exploited" rather than "sluts") with misandry (a hate specifically aimed at male sexuality). This concept is in direct opposition to egalitarian feminism and sex-positive feminism as it relies and enforces sexist ideas about male and female sexuality. It's also culturally incompetent in it's failure to understand the relation with idealization, emotion and artwork.

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January 14th, 2013, 18:18
Originally Posted by CraigCWB View Post
Unfortunate Freudian slip aside, the availability of sex and human sex drive seems to be one of the few constants in human history. It should be neither more common nor more rare in a dystopian future. Nor was it, to the best of my recollection, in cyberpunk scifi. You wanna agitate for more sex in games that's fine by me and I might even co-sign, but don't act like it's a genre requirement
The cyberpunk genré is based on the libertarian utopia where there are no more restraints, everything can be sold for profit and a human life isn't worth anything. This means selling every means of pleasure imaginable whether it's sex, genetically made pets.

So you have artwork like this;
Spoiler


…and this;
Spoiler

Mankind must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind. - John F Kennedy
An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind. - Mahatma Gandhi
The world is my country. To do good is my religion. My mind is my own church. This simple creed is all we need to enjoy peace on earth. - Thomas Paine
Last edited by JemyM; January 14th, 2013 at 19:40.
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January 14th, 2013, 18:54
JemyM, you might want to put the big picture under a spoiler tab. It enter the category of NSFW.

Some games have "female gaze" content too, but you never hear anything about it.
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January 14th, 2013, 19:17
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
The cyberpunk genré is based on the libertarian utopia where there are no more restraints, everything can be sold for profit and a human life isn't worth anything. This means selling every means of pleasure imaginable whether it's sex, genetically made pets.
Libertarian utopia seems an awful attempt at describing anarchy in a dark future. You can't do better?

I do agree with your previous comment about gender roles.
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January 14th, 2013, 19:33
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Well, I'd say sex is significantly more prominent in a proper dystopian Cyberpunk setting than other sci-fi settings. Mostly because of the class separation and exclusive focus on urban life, where whores are common and highly visible.
Well, the main characters, at least the ones we are supposed to relate to, in cyberpunk are members of the criminal underworld and simultaneously social misfits and outcasts. I still argue the seediness in cyberpunk made its way into the genre because that seedy lifestyle is associated with people who live that way in the present. It adds color, flavor, and context. it's not a genre-defining element.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
So, I agree that "sex on display" is a Cyberpunk thing, though it's obviously not exclusive to that setting. It doesn't matter if there are cities or places in real life with whores being prominent - because they're not prominent in most places. In Cyberpunk, they're pretty much everywhere you go - and that's what makes them part of the setting.
But, we don't go everywhere. We only go to the seedy underbelly, as the good doctor put it. And how would you describe Rome in decline, by the way? It seems to me that people of both sexes were owned, bought or sold for sex as a matter of routine.

Anyway, all this stuff people are saying about the cyberpunk genre is news to me. I never played the PnP roleplaying game so I'd venture a guess that's where it comes from. It doesn't, in my opinion, come from the classics of film and fiction. I am, or was, a big fan, and I would remember.

Anyway, it's all good if the game is good. And I certainly wouldn't complain about a less juvenile presentation of sex, so I didn't feel like the ideas about sex were coming from a horny teenager who'd never actually had any with anyone besides himself. Because, that gets pretty annoying.
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January 14th, 2013, 19:40
Originally Posted by azarhal View Post
JemyM, you might want to put the big picture under a spoiler tab. It enter the category of NSFW.
Funny because the former is a book I bought in the early 90'ies when I was a young teenager.

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January 14th, 2013, 19:49
Originally Posted by CraigCWB View Post
Libertarian utopia seems an awful attempt at describing anarchy in a dark future. You can't do better?
Anarcho-capitalism is a kind of libertarianism;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism

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January 14th, 2013, 19:55
Have a look at the following comparison between A Brave New World and 1984. Cyberpunk settings are usually based on the former.

Spoiler

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January 14th, 2013, 19:57
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
The cyberpunk genré is based on the libertarian utopia

So you have artwork like this;
Spoiler


…and this;
Spoiler
More than anything else, it is based on the target audience. Hence the artworks.
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January 14th, 2013, 20:08
Originally Posted by GhanBuriGhan View Post
As far as cinematic trailers go, this one was brilliant.
Have you seen the alternate version that takes it to the next level?

http://youtu.be/v_sHKvlyHRg
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January 14th, 2013, 20:13
Originally Posted by Dr. A View Post
But what is the alternative? No sexualization whatsover? A "Nintendification" of sorts? I myself am annoyed at overly portrayed female tropes in fantasy (all that flesh is covered by a metal bikini, yeah right!) but to neuter (another Freudian slip? ) the sexual dysfunction in a cyberpunk setting is, to me at least, unsettling.
Yeah, it's been a while but I think it was in Ultima Online that I'm recalling where the female version of plate armor was literally a metal bikini and thigh high boots. I don't mind the skimpy outfits, and there have even been games where I've decided my male character was a barbarian slob who ran around Conan style with a loincloth and sandals (usually because I hated the way the armor looked) but there should be some in-game reason people would be dressing like that.

Originally Posted by Dr. A View Post
Or like you say, we could just have the usual amount of sex we already have in current times. Which based on the saturation rate of current mainstream media, seems to be excessive to begin with
The presentation of sexuality in computer games is already quite prudish, and quite childish. A lot of these devs are married and most of them have probably had sex a few times (maybe even with more than one person!) so presumably they know that. They do it the way they do it because they think that's what the target audience wants.

Originally Posted by Dr. A View Post
Excess. Vice. Vulgarism. All major components of cyberpunk, are they not? Surely sex fits in here as well?
Seems no reason there couldn't be as much sex as there was in the ultra seedy and ultra violent GTA IV and Saints Row series. And those games were immensely popular, years ago. There's no excuse for RPGs, which are a more appropriate setting for sexual relationships, to have "sex according to an 11 year old", instead.
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January 14th, 2013, 20:18
Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
More than anything else, it is based on the target audience. Hence the artworks.
No. Out of the 12 published works for Nya Mutant (Cul De Sac) only 2 had a woman on it's cover which isn't consistent with your theory.

The publisher used stock artwork from a specific line that included art like this;
Spoiler


Idealization is a part of artwork and fantasy artwork around the 80-90'ies idealized the male and female body.

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January 14th, 2013, 20:21
Originally Posted by CountChocula View Post
Have you seen the alternate version that takes it to the next level?

http://youtu.be/v_sHKvlyHRg
Hillarious

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January 14th, 2013, 20:27
Originally Posted by CountChocula View Post
Have you seen the alternate version that takes it to the next level?

http://youtu.be/v_sHKvlyHRg
Hah, good one.

And here's a small interview with Mike Pondsmith - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPZxkhLoukI
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January 14th, 2013, 20:44
Originally Posted by Cerberus View Post
Hah, good one.

And here's a small interview with Mike Pondsmith - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPZxkhLoukI
That's a great vid. Much better than the promo. Now I'm looking forward to it
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January 14th, 2013, 20:50
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
No. Out of the 12 published works for Nya Mutant (Cul De Sac) only 2 had a woman on it's cover which isn't consistent with your theory.

The publisher used stock artwork from a specific line that included art like this;
Spoiler


Idealization is a part of artwork and fantasy artwork around the 80-90'ies idealized the male and female body.
You know what I find funny. "People" complains about women wearing steel bikini and being lightly clothed in fantasy artworks, but the men are not that much better with the loincloth and bare everything else.

Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
Funny because the former is a book I bought in the early 90'ies when I was a young teenager.
From personal experience (my work environment is mostly men), these are considered NSFW because they attract everything with testosterone to your desk to look at them as opposed to be productive.
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January 14th, 2013, 21:02
Originally Posted by CraigCWB View Post
Well, the main characters, at least the ones we are supposed to relate to, in cyberpunk are members of the criminal underworld and simultaneously social misfits and outcasts. I still argue the seediness in cyberpunk made its way into the genre because that seedy lifestyle is associated with people who live that way in the present. It adds color, flavor, and context. it's not a genre-defining element.
I'm not sure what you're saying, really. Cyberpunk is defined as "high tech, low life" - and that's basically it for strict genre definition. Then we have all sorts of examples from books, movies and games - and we can argue every which way about what elements are the most important and there would be no way of proving it, just like trying to define what makes an RPG. Obviously, a dystopian "dark noir" seedy setting is something most of us would consider vital to the genre.

It's a fantasy - not a reality. We only have our own reality to draw from when creating a fantasy, so it goes without saying that how life is today or as it's always been is a major influence on any genre.

Cyberpunk is almost always about urban life on the street - with a huge class separation, where corporations rule the world. That means you'll have people without means selling themselves for profit - as the only way to survive, and that's where whores come into the picture. That's pretty inevitable.


But, we don't go everywhere. We only go to the seedy underbelly, as the good doctor put it. And how would you describe Rome in decline, by the way? It seems to me that people of both sexes were owned, bought or sold for sex as a matter of routine.
Oh, so you're saying because Rome in decline had a lot of sex - Cyberpunk can't have it? Because I don't get that. Why would it have to be exclusive?

"Everywhere" in terms of Cyberpunk IS the seedy underbelly - as far as I'm concerned.

Anyway, all this stuff people are saying about the cyberpunk genre is news to me. I never played the PnP roleplaying game so I'd venture a guess that's where it comes from. It doesn't, in my opinion, come from the classics of film and fiction. I am, or was, a big fan, and I would remember.
The PnP roleplaying game is the foundation of the game, though. As for film and fiction - you must have read or seen something I didn't - because I think seedy life and prostitution has been obvious in most examples - including Blade Runner, even if it isn't spelled out for the audience.
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January 14th, 2013, 21:02
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
No. Out of the 12 published works for Nya Mutant (Cul De Sac) only 2 had a woman on it's cover which isn't consistent with your theory.

Idealization is a part of artwork and fantasy artwork around the 80-90'ies idealized the male and female body.
It is determined by the target audience. What tells about the target audience is what is present and absent.

2 out of 12 is still more than 0 out of 12. And one will find easily things that are 0 times present.

Idealization is part of artwork. So is non idealization, representing grotesque figures and so on. Artwork is a vast domain. Ingres' art work for example. Men are represented with perfect proportions, while women are distorted. Why? Sexual impulses. By wanting to paint ideally sexually attractive women, this painter was led to paint distorted women.
Idealization of artwork brings nothing.
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