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RPGWatch Forums » Comments » News Comments » Shroud of the Avatar: Forsaken Virtues - On Kickstarter

Default Shroud of the Avatar: Forsaken Virtues - On Kickstarter

March 9th, 2013, 07:20
Originally Posted by jwmeep View Post
Seems like this definitely going be an mmo game, but they are avoiding using the words for marketing reasons since those kind of projects don't do well on kickstarter.

http://www.kickstarter.com/profile/portalarium/comments





In another thread I expressed hesitation that "going back to his roots" meant Ultima online, and that appears to be the case. To many people UO was the greatest mmo of all time. So I'm sure they'll be happy with that.

I know they are promising the single player wont be hurt by this focus, but honestly, I've heard that one before. Playing single player in a game meant for multiplayer or co-up just isn't the same. It's not designed for you, and you can tell that. Maybe Garriot will be the first to get it right. We'll see. Plus they are already talking about micro transactions which I don't care for.

For now I am not going to pledge, but I will keep an eye on the comments when it's released, and make a decision then. If it's a solid single player experience, I might purchase it then.
You didn't use the whole quote there and cut out what they said about the single player part.

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March 9th, 2013, 07:24
Also, if it is a single player game, I have the same problem as I had with the PE KS - what is the story hook? What is the mood you are going for? What is the central conflict in the game world? All this remains very vague so far. And the little I know about combat has me wondering. I hope we get some more info in the updates.
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March 9th, 2013, 07:28
Two comments from the deva on this link explain combat and the multiplayer topic…it says the online part is MMO like but that has nothing to do with the single player they also mention they do not like MMO combat….

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/…ues-0/comments

You will have to dig a bit since you cannot directly link comments.

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March 9th, 2013, 07:33
The odd thing is, for the people that like the game and want to share their excitement, they are drowned out by skeptical critic armchair RPG geniuses. That strikes me as odd.

Usually when I don't like something, I dont comment on it, because I move onto something I like. I just move on and do something else. I don't try to convince people with statement that are not even true and accurate.

"oh no! So many hardcore ultima fans! And this man is single handedly messing up YOUR beloved experiences.(which all vary so wildly from single player to UO)"

Making it miserable for those of us who want to enjoy it and talk about our excitement. Many of you would rather just talk about your misery.

I am in the wrong thread or something.

damn you internets!

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March 9th, 2013, 07:36
I'm not sure how much misinformation is getting out there at the moment.
If other RPG forums are having conversations like this thread then I imagine its off the charts.

Hey Rune_74 you might get a kick out of this… My original childhood Ultima 3 notebook is at the bottom.
http://www.houstongamedev.org/richar…ott-de-cayeux/

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March 9th, 2013, 07:41
Well I'm sorry. I wish I could be as exited, and maybe excitement will grow as more information comes out. The pitch just didn't really do it for me. We are here to discuss games, positive and negative - not just to cheer our favorites.
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March 9th, 2013, 07:43
Here is the one about combat:

"If deep combat and single player experience is what you're after, I think we'll answer those concerns in the coming days so keep an eye out for more updates. The combat system is an area where we diverging from MMO's a bit because we don't believe they are skillful. They involve little strategy, usually some twitch, and rarely any thinking.

Our ability stack system has some elements of more modern card games (don't hate it till you hear more! And when I say card game, think Dominion, not MTG ) but plays out in real time. There is both strategy in crafting just the right stacks and also in executing with them. We expect it to be an element that gets a lot of chatter on various boards post launch as people discuss the best options. It is also what enables us to go with a truly classless system where people can take on different play styles and party roles.

Again, sorry to be a tease but look forward to upcoming posts and videos on some of these elements.

As for the "not thought through" comment, it isn't that we haven't thought through these elements, it is just that we aren't mind readers! This is part of why we are trying to pull in the community instead of just making a game and throwing it out there to see if you like. - Chris
"

Here is the whole MMO qoute, take it for what is there:

the game can be played single player without an additional dime spent. The main story lines are all single player focused and will live up to Richard's standards for a single player experience.

The multiplayer experience is very MMO like and I think we're just confusing people by saying it is not. You will be able to see other players in game and meet new people. The only thing that will be different is that where possible, we won't be driving 100% of the experience through our servers. Instead, we'll be letting players direct connect to each other. Obviously there many situations where that isn't possible due to exploits but where possible we'll be letting the players drive much of their own scenes locally.

Again though, if players choose to play solo, we let them. Our current thinking is that we'll be showing them evidence of shared elements like other players houses and banners and dynamic content just to keep the world feeling more alive but even that is up for discussion at this point.

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March 9th, 2013, 07:48
Originally Posted by GhanBuriGhan View Post
Well I'm sorry. I wish I could be as exited, and maybe excitement will grow as more information comes out. The pitch just didn't really do it for me. We are here to discuss games, positive and negative - not just to cheer our favorites.
I know we can't have opinions that others don't like. Nothing new here though. I just want more singleplayer rpg's not tainted by any online features.

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March 9th, 2013, 07:48
Originally Posted by GhanBuriGhan View Post
Well I'm sorry. I wish I could be as exited, and maybe excitement will grow as more information comes out. The pitch just didn't really do it for me. We are here to discuss games, positive and negative - not just to cheer our favorites.
Sure we can discuss both, that is expected. What is weird is the amount of comments like it is copying Mount and blade(like seriously, really?) or it is a WoW clone. There is enough in the video on the page to see both those claims are unfounded.

Oh and over 400k in one day? I'm happy with that. who wouldn't be?

PS: A tone of disgruntaled tabula rosa(sp) fans out there…and they are damned insistant on being heard.

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March 9th, 2013, 08:06
Well I'm sorry. I wish I could be as exited, and maybe excitement will grow as more information comes out. The pitch just didn't really do it for me. We are here to discuss games, positive and negative - not just to cheer our favorites.
No worries. I am clearly in the wrong place. Hope you can make peace with your thoughtful un excitement.

see y'all down the road.

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March 9th, 2013, 08:13
Originally Posted by QuestLord View Post
No worries. I am clearly in the wrong place. Hope you can make peace with your thoughtful un excitement.

see y'all down the road.
Overly dramatic much? Pull up your panties, son. In the real world, not everyone is going to agree with you about everything. You know that, right? By the way, you come across as a bit of an arrogant ass on your LinkedIn profile…
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March 9th, 2013, 08:29
Originally Posted by rune_74 View Post
You didn't use the whole quote there and cut out what they said about the single player part.
Well those quotes weren't really relevant to my statement. That they are going for an mmo game, they just don't want to call it as such for marketing reasons. I probably should have used a […] but I assure you I wasn't trying to use the comment out of context.

And I did acknowledge their comments about the single player.
I know they are promising the single player wont be hurt by this focus,
Yes I know they are promising the storyline is written for the single player. Yes I realize they said there will be no additional charges if you play it off line. Yes I know they said it will meet Garriot's standards, etc, etc. I just don't trust PR people and marketing very much, and I was around for the marketing campaign of Ascension, and Ulima Online. The marketing made tons of fantastic promises about those games too. And to be fair they did deliver on some of those promises, but not all of them.

Richard Garriot is a talented designer, and his Ultima games are some of the finest ever made. He's also an eccentric, been out of the business a while, and previously has made comments about the "ultimate RPG" that I personally don't agree with. Could this be a good game? Yes. It may also have the potential not to be one. Only time will tell, but I'm going to be cautious. I've backed over twenty different kickstarters. I'm a big believer in the model. But I've backed some projects that in hindsight I shouldn't have, and as such I am wary of being burned again.

I assure you I'm not interested in spreading misinformation, I just shared the quotes that were relevant to how I shaped my decision. Besides, don't take it personally. Like I said when the game comes out I'll read the reviews, play a demo if they have one, and purchase it when it comes out. Till then, I'm just going to be cautious.

Also I can only afford one kickstarter this paycheck and Torment got there first. (and I was pretty impressed with InExile's alpha video, which played a role in my decision).
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March 9th, 2013, 08:35
Besides, I think I really do have kickstarter fatigue. I wasn't so sure about Wildman, or Shaker either. Besides looks like this is going to hit it's target anyway (and they said that Garriot is putting in more of his own money.) So they don't really need mine to get it made. If they do deliver a good, ultima like experience, they'll still get my money in the end.
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March 9th, 2013, 08:38
Originally Posted by QuestLord View Post
If other RPG forums are having conversations like this thread then I imagine its off the charts.
Oh I assure you they are much worse. You should see RPGCodex. They are making the conversation here look very optimistic in comparison.
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March 9th, 2013, 08:50
I guess i will not back this one. These are my reasons:

1. I absolutely loathe MMO-s.
2. I loathe microtransactions in games even more than MMO-s.
3. I'm sick and tired of Garriot attributing all of his games successes to himself. Notice how no other team member is not even named? That guy is a worse egomaniac than Molyneux.
4. Speaking of success when was the last time Garriot made something worth playing? The last truly good game he was involved with was Ultima VII almost 20 years ago. I'm sorry, but this simply does not cut it for me.
5. Portalarium doesn't support any other Kickstarter projects. No project i've supported so far has been so arrogant.
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March 9th, 2013, 09:42
Originally Posted by Fantasm View Post
I was right there with you guys, but then somebody posted this in the Kickstarter comments:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIv3lJf_xhs

I backed this of course, but just barely…
I have no right to be angry with him for not wanting to create games in the style of the original Ultimas. However, it is beyond my comprehension how you can go from Ultima to doing social online games like the one in the video. Mind you, I'm perfectly fine with people wanting to do social games and that people want to spend their time and money on them. It is just not for me.
In my world you just can't be passionate about both. Frankly, you can't even change from one to the other as they are complete opposites. However, it seems like Richard found a way to do it and that is either the greatest fall from grace or the biggest achievement ever.
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March 9th, 2013, 10:11
Originally Posted by DarNoor View Post
That's what I would like to know.
Same here, singeplayer focused or not?
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March 9th, 2013, 10:39
Originally Posted by woges View Post
Big interview at Polygon.com (thanks to Gamebanshee for this one).
Just read that interview - some good stuff there, like the way the game will test your moral decicions and react to them, or how the conflict with the antagonist is dynamic and can be approached and solved in different ways.

Although I am not that much into combat systems I am still very weary of what we know about the combat system:
Combat, still early in design, seems mundane. Players point and click with their mouse to instigate attacks with weapons or magic.

"The full combat system wasn't quite ready for demoing," Garriott said. "But the way we're doing combat is, what we're trying to get away from is the just repeatedly clicking. I don't have any problem with that, I'm a huge fan of Diablo … and I personally enjoy that very much. But for something that you want to last for a greater period of time, in a virtual world you want to go live in, you really need to create a combat that isn't just optimizing your damage over time. So we have a skill system that brings up options based upon the things that you have learned.

"Nominally, as you learn more skills you will go into a combat with what you might consider a deck of those skills."

Ultimately, he said, you'll have to pick and choose your load-out before a battle.

"We're hoping that it feels like a more skillful combat and one that you can tune to the play experience you're having with each individual set of encounters," he said.
He says they want to avoid just clicking, but it seems the combat is just that - I kinda like the "Skill deck" idea as a tactical element, but I do hope they make me have a relevant input during the combat as well.

Shroud of the Avatar will be a game of, at max, "tens of people," Garriott said. While it can be played entirely offline or alone, when online, the game will be constantly looking for like-minded players, sometimes friends, with which to people a player's world.
Together with some other quotes, what I get from this is that they aim more for a coop experience, with some social game trappings such as an in-game economy and microtransactions for visual enhancments and "conveniences" and probably rather strictly regulated "opt in" PvP options.
If its otherwise a well done game, it could be fun to tromp around with some fellow watchers…
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March 9th, 2013, 11:16
I think the controversy here and elsewhere shows, at least, that RG didn't get the KS pitch quite right, regardless of the merits of his approach, whatever that turns out to be - it's none too clear right now.

Thought it worth backing though as I'm sure that it will be interesting enough that I'll want to give it a go on release. And maybe the KS will act to focus attention away from stuff like expensive persistent player housing on which you pay taxes. That's one aspect of real life that I don't need in games.

Plus it's great to see games with RPG focus making such a strong comeback.
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March 9th, 2013, 12:07
I think it's time for people to settle back, relax and await developments. This is certainly NOT the time to rush to judgment!! This MAY be a great game, or it MAY be utter crap. Time will tell and only time. I'm a huge Ultima fan; hey, I was a beta tester for Lazarus and a part of the Archon team which produced the U6 remake. I'm hopeful that this will be a success, but LB is going to have to PROVE himself to me this time around. Let's be cautiously optimistic and trust that in the end he will give everyone the game they want.

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