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Default Shroud of the Avatar - Update 7

March 15th, 2013, 22:29
Originally Posted by Myrkrel View Post
Latest update is up: Tracy Hickman (author of Dragonlance, Deathgate cycle, etc) will be Lead Story Designer on SotA.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/…0/posts/429043

Might sweeten the pot for some folks. Though I'm sure some will find a reason to complain about it.
I'm honestly waiting to hear how he isn't a good writer anyways and it's not as if he has done anything. At this point, I think it is people looking for reasons for it to fail then for it to succeed. I certainly hope I can bring these threads up later on.

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March 16th, 2013, 00:07
Originally Posted by rune_74 View Post
I'm honestly waiting to hear how he isn't a good writer anyways and it's not as if he has done anything. At this point, I think it is people looking for reasons for it to fail then for it to succeed. I certainly hope I can bring these threads up later on.
Honestly man, you act as if people are people outrageously rude by refusing to give this guy money. Simply put, a lot of people aren't interested in the pitch. Disagreements happen. If it ends up being good, I'm sure people will be willing to give LB money down the road.
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March 16th, 2013, 00:44
Originally Posted by killias2 View Post
Honestly man, you act as if people are people outrageously rude by refusing to give this guy money. Simply put, a lot of people aren't interested in the pitch. Disagreements happen. If it ends up being good, I'm sure people will be willing to give LB money down the road.
I don't think they are rude, but the continued reporting of "facts" on what it is, when even proved wrong is hilarious. So many hear have state their so called "facts" and when shown factual evidence that they were wrong ignore that and stick to their guns. Which for whatever reason a lot of people tend to take as facts here.

And the worst part is you aren't even talking about the game any more, for instance Tracey Hickman hired as the main writer, which is great. Does it generate any interest here on a site that prides itself in rpg's?

Dragon commander gets more interest.

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March 16th, 2013, 01:06
And why oh why do you - that so emphatically judge others' stated opinions as misinformation while claiming yours as "factual evidence" - think this perception has come to pass?
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March 16th, 2013, 01:11
Originally Posted by Moorkh View Post
And why oh why do you - that so emphatically judge others' stated opinions as misinformation while claiming yours as "factual evidence" - think this perception has come to pass?
Well, if I post a developers quote I would think it holds more value then quoting another forum users comment. I would tend to lean on the developers comments being the more factual of the two.

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March 16th, 2013, 01:19
That doesn't answer my question. Why does DC get more interest? Why do people stick with their sceptical perception of SotA even though you present the facts to them? Why are we STILL not excited even though they have acquired a writer of Dragonlance fame?

(P.S.: (unrelated) And why haven't we heard more on Tracy's books since the end of his collaboration with Margaret, anyway?")

(P.P.S: (equally unrelated, but slightly indignant) Where exactly do you get the notion that I quoted another forum user's comment as a fact?)
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March 16th, 2013, 01:29
Originally Posted by Moorkh View Post
That doesn't answer my question. Why does DC get more interest? Why do people stick with their sceptical perception of SotA even though you present the facts to them? Why are we STILL not excited even though they have acquired a writer of Dragonlance fame?

(P.S.: (unrelated) And why haven't we heard more on Tracy's books since the end of his collaboration with Margaret, anyway?")

(P.P.S: (equally unrelated, but slightly indignant) Where exactly do you get the notion that I quoted another forum user's comment as a fact?)
Honestly, I have no idea. To each their own I guess, whatever floats the boat around here. Maybe many of you are to young to remember ultima games, then again this forum has been fickle for the last few years.

Not everyone is as uninterested as you, and why you would care so much that I have called out some for their mount and blade comments(which is pure crap by the way). But, in this thread alone you made a lot of assumptions that Myrkel called you out on.

And I wasn't stating your were using others comments as facts, but a lot of peoples arguments on what it is comes from those. I'm not the only one who has stated that.

I would say anything that can generate a million dollars has some people interested in them.

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March 16th, 2013, 01:48
Fair enough.

But no, I haven't been called out on any by Myrkel - his answers to my concerns was along the lines that it was very much possible that what I identify with Ultima could be in SotA. Which is possible, I suppose, even partially in consideration, if I check dev comments, but certainly not the core of their design.
Sure, my expectations are obviously not yours, but then people with similar views to mine are apparently to be found among those 14000 (and so may I before the end), not least because they really, really want LB to come back to make "their" kind of Ultimas. And yet, still, SotA is not raking in the cash by the truckloads compared to some of the other projects out there even though LB is certainly the most reknown developer to have wound up on KS.
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March 16th, 2013, 01:53
I think there was a lot of initial confusion that if people were to go through what is out there(admittedly not all in one place) they would see many of their fears would be put on hold. I do think they need to beef up their FAQ and make a statement of that, showing there is a lot more info there.

Some won't take the time to look, and I believe many haven't.

I'm curious as to what you think I see in an Ultima, or what attracts me. I have played them all. Beat a couple of them. At the moment I'm playing Ultima 7, which should give you an idea what I find interesting about them.

One thing for sure is, Richard Garriott looks excited about this game, and that excites me.

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March 16th, 2013, 02:30
Originally Posted by rune_74 View Post
I think there was a lot of initial confusion that if people were to go through what is out there(admittedly not all in one place) they would see many of their fears would be put on hold. I do think they need to beef up their FAQ and make a statement of that, showing there is a lot more info there.

Some won't take the time to look, and I believe many haven't.

I'm curious as to what you think I see in an Ultima, or what attracts me. I have played them all. Beat a couple of them. At the moment I'm playing Ultima 7, which should give you an idea what I find interesting about them.

One thing for sure is, Richard Garriott looks excited about this game, and that excites me.
To clarify where I'm coming from, and I think some of the skeptics are with me, you have to look at the events leading up to the KS and the early days of the Kickstarter. First off, almost two decades of questionable results from LB. Sure, his early work speaks for itself, but I'm not sure the same skills are required to make Ultima 1 on an Apple II and to make a great RPG in 2013. With the later games you have an argument, but LB wasn't the only major contributor to those projects. He, and much of fandom, act like they were still the one-man projects of his youth, but they simply weren't. Much of us are also skeptical about the team LB has around himself, but that's neither here nor there.

On top of this, LB's turn to social gaming with Ultimate Collector put a lot of people off. His "Ultimate RPG" blogpost is especially worrisome, as it's filled with horrible cliches like social gaming, microtransactions, and MMO elements.

They even announced that they had the money for this social, iOS ultimate RPG: 7 million dollars. http://www.joystiq.com/2012/07/11/ri…unding-for-io/
However, since this announcement, we haven't heard anything. Then, boom, suddenly the "ultimate RPG" comes back in Kickstarter form. It's still quite unclear exactly what happened.

Finally, the Kickstarter pitch itself focused largely on the multiplayer elements. Pay-to-own multiplayer housing took up a big portion of the initial pitch. In interviews, LB talked more about the multiplayer elements than anything else. In a recent interview, as pointed out before, they admitted to not even -thinking- about using NPCs to replace other people for certain tasks in SP.

The comments they made were also all over the place. At times, they'd say there could be room for offline singleplayer. At other times, they emphasized playing "solo" and suggested that there might not be a fully dedicated offline version. When they finally announced that there would be a fully dedicated offline version, they, -themselves-, called it a change and spoke of it as such. Heck, they still admit there won't be an ending per se. This was a game built top to bottom to be multiplayer but, in the shadow of the tepid response, they've retooled the game as something else.

Of course, I could be wrong. Here and there in the first few days they mentioned offline as being there. They say story and morality are important, although details are forthcoming. Sure, they cite the Ultimate RPG blogpost as important for this game, but that doesn't -have- to mean that they really meant it, at least for all aspects of the blogpost. Sure, LB has had some issues with games over the last 20 years, but maybe he just needs this to get back into it? Right? And while he wasn't the only person on board, surely he's surrounded himself with quality people? Portalarium may have only made Facebook games we'd all hate up to this point, but we can probably just assume they're all hardcore RPG fanatics and super talented. Right? Who cares that he spent millions to go to space and just won almost 30 million in court for a mediocre over-promised game? He probably needs that million just to prove uhh interest. Or something.

We can give him the benefit of the doubt on everything. LB says he is excited. He says it'll have a like totally epic singleplayer and everyone will love it. The multiplayer won't get in the way unless you want it to, and it won't direct resources away from singleplayer unless you want it to. Or something.

But not of us can simply give him the benefit of the doubt on every single issue, and I think the total picture is a little sketchy. Here's hoping I'm wrong. I'd love another great RPG on the market, and it looks like this will get the 1 million dollars it "needs".
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March 16th, 2013, 02:58
Originally Posted by killias2 View Post
To clarify where I'm coming from, and I think some of the skeptics are with me, you have to look at the events leading up to the KS and the early days of the Kickstarter. First off, almost two decades of questionable results from LB. Sure, his early work speaks for itself, but I'm not sure the same skills are required to make Ultima 1 on an Apple II and to make a great RPG in 2013. With the later games you have an argument, but LB wasn't the only major contributor to those projects. He, and much of fandom, act like they were still the one-man projects of his youth, but they simply weren't. Much of us are also skeptical about the team LB has around himself, but that's neither here nor there.

On top of this, LB's turn to social gaming with Ultimate Collector put a lot of people off. His "Ultimate RPG" blogpost is especially worrisome, as it's filled with horrible cliches like social gaming, microtransactions, and MMO elements.

They even announced that they had the money for this social, iOS ultimate RPG: 7 million dollars. http://www.joystiq.com/2012/07/11/ri…unding-for-io/
However, since this announcement, we haven't heard anything. Then, boom, suddenly the "ultimate RPG" comes back in Kickstarter form. It's still quite unclear exactly what happened.

Finally, the Kickstarter pitch itself focused largely on the multiplayer elements. Pay-to-own multiplayer housing took up a big portion of the initial pitch. In interviews, LB talked more about the multiplayer elements than anything else. In a recent interview, as pointed out before, they admitted to not even -thinking- about using NPCs to replace other people for certain tasks in SP.

The comments they made were also all over the place. At times, they'd say there could be room for offline singleplayer. At other times, they emphasized playing "solo" and suggested that there might not be a fully dedicated offline version. When they finally announced that there would be a fully dedicated offline version, they, -themselves-, called it a change and spoke of it as such. Heck, they still admit there won't be an ending per se. This was a game built top to bottom to be multiplayer but, in the shadow of the tepid response, they've retooled the game as something else.

Of course, I could be wrong. Here and there in the first few days they mentioned offline as being there. They say story and morality are important, although details are forthcoming. Sure, they cite the Ultimate RPG blogpost as important for this game, but that doesn't -have- to mean that they really meant it, at least for all aspects of the blogpost. Sure, LB has had some issues with games over the last 20 years, but maybe he just needs this to get back into it? Right? And while he wasn't the only person on board, surely he's surrounded himself with quality people? Portalarium may have only made Facebook games we'd all hate up to this point, but we can probably just assume they're all hardcore RPG fanatics and super talented. Right? Who cares that he spent millions to go to space and just won almost 30 million in court for a mediocre over-promised game? He probably needs that million just to prove uhh interest. Or something.

We can give him the benefit of the doubt on everything. LB says he is excited. He says it'll have a like totally epic singleplayer and everyone will love it. The multiplayer won't get in the way unless you want it to, and it won't direct resources away from singleplayer unless you want it to. Or something.

But not of us can simply give him the benefit of the doubt on every single issue, and I think the total picture is a little sketchy. Here's hoping I'm wrong. I'd love another great RPG on the market, and it looks like this will get the 1 million dollars it "needs".
Exactly and that is why I have not pledged for this one. Moreover, they are not even giving you room to give them any benefit of doubt with their expensive starting tiers.
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March 16th, 2013, 03:05
Originally Posted by killias2 View Post

Of course, I could be wrong. Here and there in the first few days they mentioned offline as being there. They say story and morality are important, although details are forthcoming. Sure, they cite the Ultimate RPG blogpost as important for this game, but that doesn't -have- to mean that they really meant it, at least for all aspects of the blogpost. Sure, LB has had some issues with games over the last 20 years, but maybe he just needs this to get back into it? Right? And while he wasn't the only person on board, surely he's surrounded himself with quality people? Portalarium may have only made Facebook games we'd all hate up to this point, but we can probably just assume they're all hardcore RPG fanatics and super talented. Right? Who cares that he spent millions to go to space and just won almost 30 million in court for a mediocre over-promised game? He probably needs that million just to prove uhh interest. Or something.
See the problem with this whole paragraph you used is that it is snarky and blames lord british for all the problems his games have had over the last 20 or so years, and earlier in your post you don't give him credit for the successes he had in the other games laying it more at the feet of the staff he had around him. It doesn't seem to fair blame him for the bad and not acknowledge the good. The space comment was pretty snarky as well. Why did he win 30 million from his game there? None of us know what transpired there other then lots of stuff behind closed doors.

all in all, that whole paragraph screamed of sour grapes and wasn't anything to do with the actual game we are talking about.

What it comes down to is LB has earned a chance to make a new rpg for the 100's of hours he gave me in the past with his excellant rpg's, which, like it or not he was the main contributing factor.

Spoonfull, enough is enough it is not mount and blade.

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March 16th, 2013, 03:14
Originally Posted by rune_74 View Post
Spoonfull, enough is enough it is not mount and blade.
Hold your horses, I only mentioned Mount and Blade once in a previous post. What are you talking about!

We are referring to the mixed messages and confusion by statements made by the developers over the kickstarter page and various interviews with RG.

You are excited about this project, then good for you but not all people share the same excitment.
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March 16th, 2013, 03:15
Originally Posted by SpoonFULL View Post
Hold your horses, I only mentioned Mount and Blade once in a previous post. What are you talking about!

We are referring to the mixed messages and confusion by statements made by the developers over the kickstarter page and various interviews with RG.

You are excited about this project, then good for you but not all people share the same excitment.
I know, you will be here to bring us down to earth right?

Ahh that's not to fair…really, I think with each update they have gotten clearer not murkier. You should be able to see this if you are actually following it.

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March 16th, 2013, 04:07
Originally Posted by rune_74 View Post
See the problem with this whole paragraph you used is that it is snarky and blames lord british for all the problems his games have had over the last 20 or so years, and earlier in your post you don't give him credit for the successes he had in the other games laying it more at the feet of the staff he had around him. It doesn't seem to fair blame him for the bad and not acknowledge the good. The space comment was pretty snarky as well. Why did he win 30 million from his game there? None of us know what transpired there other then lots of stuff behind closed doors.

all in all, that whole paragraph screamed of sour grapes and wasn't anything to do with the actual game we are talking about.

What it comes down to is LB has earned a chance to make a new rpg for the 100's of hours he gave me in the past with his excellant rpg's, which, like it or not he was the main contributing factor.

Spoonfull, enough is enough it is not mount and blade.
I admit, I got a little snarky there. However, the idea that I didn't address the game itself is absurd. It's not -easy- to make a game that's a brilliant multiplayer experience, a brilliant singleplayer experience, and which is painlessly divided between those two halves. It's especially not easy on a tiny budget or with an unexperienced staff. I wasn't trying to take away LB's achievements entirely on the latter Ultima games. I was just pointing out that he had support from high quality people, like Warren Spector, for example.

The reason people are excited by inXile and Obsidian aren't just because they have Brian Fargo and Chris Avellone, respectively. It's that they're basically brimming with talent, especially Obsidian. Lord Britain is a huge asset, but he's only one huge asset and one that hasn't shown its value in a long time. The team he's built around himself is still unknown. His studio only has Ultimate Collector to its name, other than the apparently shelved 7 million dollar social iOS Ultimate RPG.

So, they're taking on this huge project with a shoestring budget and a team we only know a bit about. Then, on top of this, there are these concerns rooted in what LB has focused on with this game, both now and prior to the Kickstarter. I think the evidence is pretty clear that they're retooling this to be a more thoroughly single-player experience than they initially anticipated. This just complicates an already very difficult undertaking. It's not a simple thing just to add a coherent single-player experience here. It's not a stretch goal. It's pretty central to what a game is.

There are other bits that worry me about this, but that's really the heart of my skepticism.
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March 16th, 2013, 04:24
It's not that they are retooling it to be a more thorough single player experience, that has never been used by them as far as I know in any of their blogs etc. It is that they are making it so you NEVER have to be online with it, I think they originally envisioned it that people would be connected and get updates and world events in their game and couldn't see why people wouldn't want that. From the start they have talked about a strong single player main story line.

this was posted march 8th, a day after it started:

The main story lines are all single player focused and will live up to Richard's standards for a single player experience.

What I also think is after player feedback they may add more to the single player experience as in side quests and things. This remains to be seen.

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