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June 5th, 2013, 04:03
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Thats interesting, because Halo and Kotor have basically the exact same type of meta-scores. Not that it matters, because we both know that so-called "critics" are quite often the least qualified people to give hardcore gamers a review they can relate to.
What I was referring to was the tendency in the press to excoriate the last game when the next one was coming - when Halo 2 & 3 were coming, you would always read about the flaws in the original (like the copy and paste to add 40% of the game length and so on) … same for Oblivion when Fallout 3 was arriving and so on. KotOR never had that.

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June 5th, 2013, 06:51
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
What I was referring to was the tendency in the press to excoriate the last game when the next one was coming - when Halo 2 & 3 were coming, you would always read about the flaws in the original (like the copy and paste to add 40% of the game length and so on) … same for Oblivion when Fallout 3 was arriving and so on. KotOR never had that.
Kotor 2 wasn't exactly a firestorm of news in regards to press coverage.

It was previewed like any other game of course, but to compare it to something like the Halo series, which dominates the headlines every time a new one is released, is a bit unfair. I think Kotor 2 being developed by a completely different (lesser known) company also probably had at least something to do with that.

I also don't recall many negatives being related to the original Halo. In fact, it's popularity was still great enough years later for them to invest in an HD remake.

Anyways, I purchased both Kotors recently on Steam, and I'm looking forward to playing them if I can find the time. I've almost completely stayed away from anything Star Wars related for the past 4-5 years, and I'm hoping that refreshed me enough to enjoy Kotor more the second time around.
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June 5th, 2013, 07:47
I agree with you, txa.

KotOR has remained a true classic in the minds of most who've played it. It's not the sort of game that you see people calling particularly overrated years down the line. At least, I've never taken note of it.

That said, Bioware's unfortunate tendency to use that extremely successful formula over and over again, has tainted KotOR somewhat, because it was the first of their games to really cement their approach to game design. So, it's sometimes called out as the mark of their decline.

Personally, I think it was the peak of their talents (shared with NWN - as something completely different) - as well as a true merging of casual and enthusiastic audiences - and everything since then has been a slow descent with less and less innovation - and ever decreasing vision.

However, that also suggests to me that they must have considered KotOR to be the very blueprint for success.

Obviously, it's subjective - like anything is.

But it's just about as close to an objective masterpiece as you can get - if you ask me.

I also don't recall many negatives being related to the original Halo. In fact, it's popularity was still great enough years later for them to invest in an HD remake.
You didn't pay much attention then. A LOT of PC shooter fans ragged on it - big time - because it was supposed to have been a PC game first and so much more. It was one of the first really successful console shooters - and that got it a LOT of extra attention, and it was very pretty. But "hardcore" PC shooter fans - in general - weren't impressed.

I certainly wasn't and I remember lots of people agreeing with me.

I can clearly recall some of the major review sites criticising it for awful and samey level design - which was a sentiment shared by a lot of users.

That said, it had a somewhat redeeming multiplayer mode - which really extended its popularity beyond what one would have expected on PC.

I consider Halo to be a casual shooter for people who hadn't had much experience with the genre. It also introduced the regenerating shield/energy mechanic - which was widely considered a casual feature that was too forgiving.

KotOR - on the other hand - managed to appeal to both a newer casual audience as well as the enthusiast crowd. I think that's quite something.
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June 5th, 2013, 08:03
Originally Posted by Ihaterpg View Post
Well calm down, don't you think?

Common it's just words and posts. Ok you are totally right, it's ok like that?
Why would I be upset?

I'm genuinely curious what it is about the Watch that appeals to you and those others I mentioned.

I mean, to me, you seem like elaborate AIs - communicating through a procedure based on a random seed. As in, your agenda could have been anything - it just happened to be RPGs or some imaginary "hardcore gamer" consensus.

You could be really interesting to communicate with - if only your AI was advanced enough to process input - instead of just producing output.

I think I'll wait until your user upgrades your functions

But your *drive* is, at least, impressive. Since I've never found one-way communication appealing - I really AM curious why you go on and on - when you obviously fail utterly to convince even a single person - EVER - anywhere

Not that I expect you can explain, but still.
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June 5th, 2013, 08:28
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
But it's just about as close to an objective masterpiece as you can get - if you ask me.
As humorous as I find that comment to be, I'm sincerely glad you like it that much. Perhaps I'll appreciate it more the second time around.


Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
You didn't pay much attention then. A LOT of PC shooter fans ragged on it - big time - because it was supposed to have been a PC game first and so much more. It was one of the first really successful console shooters - and that got it a LOT of extra attention, and it was very pretty. But "hardcore" PC shooter fans - in general - weren't impressed.

I certainly wasn't and I remember lots of people agreeing with me.

I can clearly recall some of the major review sites criticising it for awful and samey level design - which was a sentiment shared by a lot of users.

That said, it had a somewhat redeeming multiplayer mode - which really extended its popularity beyond what one would have expected on PC.

I consider Halo to be a casual shooter for people who hadn't had much experience with the genre. It also introduced the regenerating shield/energy mechanic - which was widely considered a casual feature that was too forgiving.

KotOR - on the other hand - managed to appeal to both a newer casual audience as well as the enthusiast crowd. I think that's quite something.
No, I'm well aware that many PC shooter fans turn their nose at Halo, and I don't blame them. It's certainly no masterpiece compared to great PC shooters. However, hardcore PC gamers don't make up the majority. Like it or not, we're a small percentage of the overall pool, and our opinions are no more important than those of the mainstream. Quite a bit less in fact.

Of course I could also argue what "hardcore" means in this context. I'm guessing a lot of Xbox Halo players probably do consider themselves to be hardcore, and who are we to say they're not?

The fact is that Halo has maintained a great deal of popularity throughout the years. Whether or not that comes from mostly mainstream gamers is beside the point. The Halo games are still being produced and sell by the millions, while gamers can only wax nostalgic about Kotor.
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June 5th, 2013, 09:08
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
As humorous as I find that comment to be, I'm sincerely glad you like it that much. Perhaps I'll appreciate it more the second time around.
Yes, I would expect you to laugh at people who disagree with you

But it's not about my own personal enjoyment. If it was, I'd call System Shock an objective masterpiece as well - but it's clearly not.

No, it's about the universal praise that txa mentioned.

Anyway, I doubt you're going to like it more the second time around. It had a big impact on me - because I didn't predict the outcome of the story, and the production values were quite amazing for its time. After Mass Effect, however, KotOR will likely seem quaint in comparison.

But I definitely hope I'm wrong. I enjoy when people are having fun.

No, I'm well aware that many PC shooter fans turn their nose at Halo, and I don't blame them. It's certainly no masterpiece compared to great PC shooters. However, hardcore PC gamers don't make up the majority. Like it or not, we're a small percentage of the overall pool, and our opinions are no more important than those of the mainstream. Quite a bit less in fact.

Of course I could also argue what "hardcore" means in this context. I'm guessing a lot of Xbox Halo players probably do consider themselves to be hardcore, and who are we to say they're not?

The fact is that Halo has maintained a great deal of popularity throughout the years. Whether or not that comes from mostly mainstream gamers is beside the point. The Halo games are still being produced and sell by the millions, while gamers can only wax nostalgic about Kotor.
It's precisely the point that it's mostly mainstream gamers.

No one is saying Halo isn't considered a popular game overall. What I'm saying - is that KotOR is more or less universally praised. Where as Halo isn't popular with the "hardcore" crowd and is generally rated lower. It might be a smaller crowd than the mainstream console audience - but it's definitely enough to take away from "universal" praise. Also, I can't agree that our opinions are less important - as that would depend on your interests. If you're an investor - you're probably right. But, as a developer, I'd probably prefer respect from those with the most experience.

Even so, it's not like our opinions are NOT important. Investors want us all to like what they invest in.

I'm talking about the first Halo, by the way - not the entire series. I stopped playing after trying the 2nd Halo - and I don't really know the 2-3 latest games at all. I assume they're better

While I wouldn't use Metacritic as some kind of objective indicator - it's pretty obvious that KotOR ranks MUCH higher than Halo.

Oh, while we haven't got another KotOR yet - I doubt that means anything in terms of popularity. They did spend a few hundred million dollars on SWtOR - which was supposed to be the biggest thing ever - and they did everything they possibly could to call it the next KotOR with multiplayer.

Also, I wouldn't rule out another KotOR just yet.
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June 5th, 2013, 09:24
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Yes, I would expect you to laugh at people who disagree with you .
Not at all. It was the comment I found humorous, not your opinion.


Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Anyway, I doubt you're going to like it more the second time around. It had a big impact on me - because I didn't predict the outcome of the story, and the production values were quite amazing for its time. After Mass Effect, however, KotOR will likely seem quaint in comparison.
I played Kotor on release, so I don't think my opinion will be much affected by later games. I must admit that I was definitely suffering from Star Wars burnout at the time though, so that could have impacted my overall experience.

I never said Kotor was a "bad" game though. I simply wasn't blown away by it like so many others seem to be. I maintain that if you were to strip away the Star Wars elements, it would be a very average RPG.


Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
While I wouldn't use Metacritic as some kind of objective indicator - it's pretty obvious that KotOR ranks MUCH higher than Halo..
Except that simply isn't true.

http://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox/…e-old-republic
http://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox/halo-combat-evolved

As you can see, there's isn't a huge difference.
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June 5th, 2013, 10:09
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Not at all. It was the comment I found humorous, not your opinion.
Well, my comment WAS my opinion

But it's all good - I don't take it to heart.

I laugh at other people on occasion myself. What can I say, it happens

I played Kotor on release, so I don't think my opinion will be much affected by later games. I must admit that I was definitely suffering from Star Wars burnout at the time though, so that could have impacted my overall experience.

I never said Kotor was a "bad" game though. I simply wasn't blown away by it like so many others seem to be. I maintain that if you were to strip away the Star Wars elements, it would be a very average RPG.
Well, Star Wars is dear to my heart - I will admit. At least, it used to be.

It's hard to imagine what it would be without the Star Wars setting - because it's so unique.

The story and the characters were very appealing to me - at the time - but I was also younger and I wasn't used to Bioware writing to the same degree.

But it really did have a big impact in terms of story, setting and atmosphere.

As a pure RPG - I'd say it was merely very good in terms of mechanics. I should mention that I'm a huge fan of the D20 system - and I much prefer it to 2nd Edition AD&D - like they used in BG and BG2.

That might have had something to do with it.

I also happen to adore sci-fi and all the hacking into computer systems stuff. That kind of gameplay is extremely appealing to me. I don't know why.

Except that simply isn't true.

http://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox/…e-old-republic
http://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox/halo-combat-evolved

As you can see, there's isn't a huge difference.
True, not for the Xbox version.

For the PC version - it's 83 against 93.

I'm not sure what that means, exactly. Overall, maybe you're right - there's not much difference.

My take is that Xbox users liked both games about equally - but PC users didn't particularly take to Halo. Which matches what we've been saying. I guess that's my point about not being universally praised. Also, the user score for Xbox Halo kinda suggests the critics have overblown how good it is. Something I obviously agree with, personally. I mean - Halo - 97? That's insanity

But we both knew there's no way to prove either of our points

I'd say we just disagree about these two games and that's fine with me.
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June 5th, 2013, 10:31
And that was my point - about how many games that are given 'best game EVAH' awards on release seem to then get picked apart by the same writers when the sequel or whatever rolls along.

None of this matters, except that it is a huge discussion owing to the singular fact that you refuse to acknowledge that KotOR was almost universally praised critically on both platforms, and that in no quarter has that praise waned. Because you don't like it … or 'like it that much' or whatever. Whatever the feeling, I have never seen someone expend so much energy on the negative side of something they have 'lukewarm' feelings about, but whatever.

All I was ever trying to say is that in general high marks for KotOR should be expected unless they did something to screw up access to the game … which they didn't, or at least not badly enough to dissuade iPad gamers from playing.

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June 5th, 2013, 10:45
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
My take is that Xbox users liked both games about equally - but PC users didn't particularly take to Halo. Which matches what we've been saying. I guess that's my point about not being universally praised. Also, the user score for Xbox Halo kinda suggests the critics have overblown how good it is. Something I obviously agree with, personally. I mean - Halo - 97? That's insanity

But we both knew there's no way to prove either of our points

I'd say we just disagree about these two games and that's fine with me.
Yeah, 97/100 is ridiculous for Halo, but I'm sure we can agree that a lot of high-profile Xbox games were severly overrated by critics.

As far as the PC version receiving a lower score, it doesn't surprise me. Not just because it obviously doesn't match up as well against PC-centric shooters, but also because of the differences in release dates. Kotor was released with little delay between platforms, but the PC version of Halo wasn't released until two years after the Xbox version. That alone put it at a significant disadvantage imo.

Kind of silly to compare such different games though. Almost like trying to compare System Shock to Half-Life.
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June 5th, 2013, 10:52
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
None of this matters, except that it is a huge discussion owing to the singular fact that you refuse to acknowledge that KotOR was almost universally praised critically on both platforms, and that in no quarter has that praise waned. Because you don't like it or 'like it that much' or whatever. Whatever the feeling, I have never seen someone expend so much energy on the negative side of something they have 'lukewarm' feelings about, but whatever..
Perhaps you can point to where I claimed Kotor wasn't highly praised?

As far as the discussion, it's just opinions, nothing more. I actually enjoy gaining insight on why someone else likes a certain game much more than me or vice versa. You seem to be taking it a bit personally, but that's on you.
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June 5th, 2013, 10:56
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Yeah, 97/100 is ridiculous for Halo, but I'm sure we can agree that a lot of high-profile Xbox games were severly overrated by critics.
A lot of high-profile games on all platforms

As far as the PC version receiving a lower score, it doesn't surprise me. Not just because it obviously doesn't match up as well against PC-centric shooters, but also because of the differences in release dates. Kotor was released with little delay between platforms, but the PC version of Halo wasn't released until two years after the Xbox version. That alone put it at a significant disadvantage imo.
True, that wasn't helpful for the PC version. That said, it really was rather simplistic and samey compared to other PC shooters at the time of Xbox release.

I got it for my Xbox at release - and was severely underwhelmed, to put it mildly. I didn't get more than a few hours in before I gave up in complete boredom.

But I did play multiplayer on PC quite a bit.

Nah, I think Halo is the result of the MASSIVE hype campaign, coupled with Microsoft dollars put in the right places - as well as being one of the first modern console shooters.

Well, that and the fact that it was a competent shooter with strong production values.

KotOR - on the other hand - was just an extremely high quality game in pretty much all ways. As I said, I think Bioware peaked right around that time.

Kind of silly to compare such different games though. Almost like trying to compare System Shock to Half-Life.
Well, it was you who started comparing meta scores between the two

txa just mentioned it because it was a series of games following the mentioned trend.

That said, most anything can be compared with merit - it just depends on the points used for comparison

Half Life was hailed, specifically, for something System Shock did MUCH better years before. As in, it was hailed as a revolution in interactive storytelling for the shooter genre.

As different as those games are, otherwise, System Shock utterly destroys Half Life in terms of interactive story telling.

Well, I think so
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June 5th, 2013, 11:03
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Half Life was hailed, specifically, for something System Shock did MUCH better years before. As in, it was hailed as a revolution in interactive storytelling for the shooter genre.

As different as those games are, otherwise, System Shock utterly destroys Half Life in terms of interactive story telling.

Well, I think so
While I don't disagree, I think it's somewhat disingenuous to compare a straight shooter to something that was obviously so much more.

While it may have been influenced by System Shock (What game hasn't been?), I think Half-Life is more accurately compared to games like Quake, SiN, etc.
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June 5th, 2013, 11:12
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
While I don't disagree, I think it's somewhat disingenuous to compare a straight shooter to something that was obviously so much more.
You could call me many things and be fair, but disingenuous is hardly one of them.

I understand why you'd think it's inappropriate - but I wasn't among the people hailing it as a revolution in that way.

If anything was inappropriate - it was how little credit System Shock got for all that it did - and that very much includes interactive storytelling.

While it may have been influenced by System Shock (What game hasn't been?), I think Half-Life is more accurately compared to games like Quake, SiN, etc.
I honestly don't know if Half Life was influenced by System Shock. The beginning seemed to be - but that's not relevant to my point at all.

I'm not comparing the games saying they're very similar. I'm talking about features they share - and that's all.

I could take a game like Diablo and compare it with Skyrim for character development mechanics - and that would be perfectly alright.

So, I'm not quite sure you understand that I'm not comparing the entirety of Half Life and System Shock - but the features they have in common.

I even go so far as to admit that Half Life is very superior as a shooter - a pure shooter. System Shock is clumsy as a shooter, and that's being somewhat kind.

But they're both first person shooters going for interactive storytelling - set in a sci-fi environment, and they're both quite heavy on atmosphere.

Maybe you don't see the similarities - but I certainly do.

If I was to compare it with other strong shooters - I'd go with one of those you mentioned, probably - but the core shooter gameplay isn't what I'm talking about.

As a pure shooter - Half Life kicks the ass of System Shock, and I'd never complain about anyone stating that. System Shock DID go for shooter gameplay as one of the primary drives. It's appropriate that so many fans of shooters didn't really enjoy it - because they might not appreciate all those other things it did.

I assume you're aware that Doom 2 was one of the primary reasons System Shock got bashed by most of the mainstream crowd?

They actually compared them directly as if they were going for the same thing - and THAT was inappropriate, because they overlooked all the things SS did differently.
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June 5th, 2013, 11:53
Half-Life was somewhat revolutionary for a pure shooter. You seem to be taking it personally that critics didn't mention System Shock when they talked about Half-Life.

I do see where you're coming from though. Half-Life didn't really do anything that wasn't done prior in one way or another. I'm guessing the majority of reviews were done by critics who never even played SS.


I assume you're aware that Doom 2 was one of the primary reasons System Shock got bashed by most of the mainstream crowd?

They actually compared them directly as if they were going for the same thing - and THAT was inappropriate, because they overlooked all the things SS did differently.
I wouldn't say SS got "bashed". More like disregarded, and yes, that was definitely inappropriate.
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June 5th, 2013, 11:56
I have only vague memories admittedly, but for what it's worth: If my memory serves me correctly, shooter reviews at the time were VERY focused on technology (he, what has changed, eh?). What I remember from the reviews I read back than was a strong focus on the technical achievements of the game, especially the skeletal animation system that it introduced, the animated events integrated into the game itself, and the decision to have absolutely everything shown from Gordon Freemans perspecitve for great emotional impact - from the intro to the outro. It was also noted that in comparison to its direct competitors, (Quake, Unreal etc.) it actually HAD a story that was more than just an excuse for wild shooting. But I don't remember it being hailed for exceptional storytelling or great freedom or other hallmarks of System Shock.
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June 5th, 2013, 13:02
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Perhaps you can point to where I claimed Kotor wasn't highly praised?

As far as the discussion, it's just opinions, nothing more. I actually enjoy gaining insight on why someone else likes a certain game much more than me or vice versa. You seem to be taking it a bit personally, but that's on you.
Nah - just opinions as you say, it is all good

I think it was DArtagnan who noted how he 'used to like' Star Wars, and while I will always have a fondness for the movies, it is the few games in the universe that I truly love that carry my passion for the franchise more than anything at this point. Jedi Knight 1 & 2 and KotOR for the most part - give me a story I enjoy wrapped in my two fave genres of gaming.

As for the whole Halo/Half-Life/System Shock deal, the reality is that mainstream things are very often given credit for innovations they didn't create … that is just life in pretty much every art form.

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June 5th, 2013, 15:05
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Half-Life was somewhat revolutionary for a pure shooter. You seem to be taking it personally that critics didn't mention System Shock when they talked about Half-Life.
I'm not taking anything about that personally - that would be pretty stupid.

But System Shock is dear to me - so obviously I'm not happy about it not receiving credit at a time when it would have meant that Looking Glass could have prospered like they deserved.

I don't personally see anything revolutionary about Half Life - because System Shock was there in all the important ways, doing it better years before.

The fact that it was a pure shooter as opposed to a cerebral shooter - makes zero difference in terms of it not innovating much at all.

Unless, of course, you consider doing something in an inferior way in a genre that's more dedicated to be a revolution. That's not something I can agree with.

But, as GBG said, it did do some neat technical things - but I'd have to say Unreal and Quake both were quantum leaps ahead - when you take time of release into account.

Half Life was more about taking an existing engine and doing some magic tricks with it - where as Unreal and Quake were complete engines that both represented true technological revolutions.

Oh, and for GBG: YES - Half Life was definitely hailed as a revolution in story telling (or however it would have been phrased back then) - but NO I don't remember any mainstream review even mentioning System Shock as a comparison. That's what I'm sort of dissatisfied with

I do see where you're coming from though. Half-Life didn't really do anything that wasn't done prior in one way or another. I'm guessing the majority of reviews were done by critics who never even played SS.
Kinda my point, yeah.

I wouldn't say SS got "bashed". More like disregarded, and yes, that was definitely inappropriate.
As I recall, several reviews mentioned how clumsy and awkward it was in terms of controls - and how Doom 2 was so much smoother and prettier.

Maybe that's not being bashed - but that's how I perceived it.

I can appreciate the controls being a mouthful for a pure shooter fan - but if they'd bothered to look beyond them - they'd have found something quite unique and powerful.
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June 5th, 2013, 18:03
http://toucharcade.com/2013/06/05/sq…ad-and-iphone/

Interesting.
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June 5th, 2013, 18:06
And wtf is wng with so called hardcore gamers. All they y at anniuncements like this is "I never asked for this." And they neve say that stuff for crappy 3ds and vita stuff:
http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=577181

Ita funny how you people claim to be "objective" wh it comes to the platform yet jusge games berore theyre even releases. Compare those domments to the ones on the toucharcade announcement above.
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