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July 2nd, 2013, 22:37
Originally Posted by Kordanor View Post
Because ranking Mad Max movies isn't
Are we ranking them? It's obvious that Mad Max 2 is the best in the series
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July 2nd, 2013, 23:39
Originally Posted by Kordanor View Post
Relatively civilized area?
Just rewatch the first movie and you will see that the setting in it does not make any sense, especially compared to the following movies.
I have seen them all many times, with the exception of Beyond Thunderdome, which I didn't particularly care for (other than the costumes and setting). I would suggest you watch it again too, the film shows the signs reading restricted zone (I can't remember the exact language) multiple times through the movie. Near the end, and as Max devolves more into a renegade, he enters the restricted zone for good. That's where he finishes off the final antagonist, and from that point he ventures further into the wasteland of the restricted zone. The next two movies take place deeper in the restricted area. It's not as well developed of a setting as the sequels (likely due to budget constraints), but it does make sense.
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July 3rd, 2013, 01:03
I've only seen each film once but I had the impression the event(s) that created the post-apoc world shown in the sequels happened between the end of 1 and Road Warrior. Didn't the latter have a short clip about the (nuclear?) war at its beginning?

I'd just like to interject here and point out that I'm not going to say anything to spoil the mood, Chief. I'll just float here and watch. Don't mind me, just sitting here, floating and watching, that's me.
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July 3rd, 2013, 01:31
The voiceover at the beginning of the Road Warrior is just further fleshing out the setting (as the framework was never really laid down that explicitly in Mad Max), but both films were intended to be post-apocalypse.
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July 3rd, 2013, 07:32
Originally Posted by rossrjensen View Post
Can't say I could possibly disagree with you more in this thread. First you say F3 is the best of series (blasphemy to true Fallout fans), and now Mad Max is boring!! Ridiculous!
Nothing is more ridiculous to the average human being than people who disagree

Personally, I love the movies and I am pretty well-known amongst my friends as a pretty big film snob. I even dressed up as the road warrior for Halloween because of my love for the Mad Max series. The first Mad Max is my favorite too (though the Road Warrior probably has a bigger influence on post apocalyptic settings). The ending to Mad Max is terrific. It's the moment you really see lone wolf renegade coming out of Max.
Oh, I know the movies are loved - and I wouldn't try to deny that they have qualities.

I've seen them all - and I find them all boring and dreary. Well, maybe that's not entirely fair. Mad Max 2 was actually OK - but still kinda boring. Mad Max 3 was partially entertaining - but devolved later on into a shit-fest.

It should be said that I'm not a fan of movies/games in post-apoc settings - as I find them to be extremely lacking in variety. To me, every game and every movie in that setting is pretty much about exactly the same thing.

The same goes for Zombie and "end of the world" movies. They all blur together - and it's all about survival and about how awful people treat each other when the luxury of civilization is lost. That can be really interesting - but when every other game or movie is about that - I find it loses its luster. Enough already.

I'm sure some people would say that about fantasy or even sci-fi movies - but I'd disagree.

Regardless of how you feel about the movies, you can't deny the massive impact it had on the Fallout games (particularly the aforementioned Road Warrior film). A lot of ideas were lifted straight from the movie. Also, the leather armor and shotgun are clear takeaways from the Mad Max character. Even narratively speaking, you are put in a lot of positions where there is no clear right answer and must decide what is best for your survival more often than what is best for others (best accomplished in the first Fallout game, in my opinion). I am totally stoked to see what they do with the game. I just hope they manage to explore the great elements that Fallout took from the movies. They could really bungle things up if they make the environment a giant playground like the Just Cause games approach the game world.
No, I would never try to deny that.

But what I like about Fallout is not the Mad Max inspiration. I like the mechanics, the combat system, the writing, the choices and consequences - and I don't find them to be related to Mad Max much at all.

If we'd had only a few "world gone to shit" games/movies - I might have been able to appreciate them more - but at this point, we're talking overexposure to the extreme.
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July 3rd, 2013, 10:28
Oh boy, hope you are prepared for the upcoming wall of text.

You say that you find every movie in a post apocalyptic setting to be quite the same. They were all about survival and the human psyche. That there are already enough of this kind of movies and that you see the fantasy setting in a different light.

Of course the post apocalyptic setting has some tendencies to what you describe but I think it is much more, or at least can be much more.
What I love about the post apocalyptic setting and where I see it's potential are the following points:

-development of human psyche as you said. On a small scale like in Walking Dead or in a community scale. Like people praying to a bomb in Fallout 3 or founding communities to other believes and habits.

-a hostile environment. There is not only radioactivity or something similar, but there are also wild gangs roaming around, maybe mutants or something similar. In addition food and water may be sacre. And of course in a zombie apocalypse you have tons of zombies. You call it survival and I agree but I think there is much more to it than it seems at the first look.
It often pushes the whole story to a lower level. To a level of individuals which at the end of a movie might survive while in a fantasy story they actually have to save the world or something similar as for some reason writers seem like this is often the only way to make it interesting. But more about that later.

-But coming with the hostile environment is also the focus on small things, which gain importance. An awesome scene from the road is this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiYeFSu5GGE

-Exploration might also be a great factor. The main protagonist is going out into an unknown world not knowing what is around the next corner, who…or what is inhabiting the next town.

-An often ocuring element coming with the exploration element is also the stumbling on relics of past times. This again has two effects. One thing is that it gives a shocking impression of what actually happened (remember the Statue of Liberty in Planet of the Apes), or it might bring something into play which only a few people know, as the Coke you saw in the previously linked video, which is a completely new experience for the child and as a viewer it's interesting to see the reaction.


You said that there are already enough of this kind, you mention overexposure to the extreme, but I disagree. While we currently have an explosion due to the hype of the Zombie Apocalypse which I am actually not a big fan of because it often limits the whole setting to the survival while the whole post apocalyptic setting is just tacked on. But there are hardly any movies, or games where all of these points play a big role. And of this we still need more.

You said that you like the mechanics of Fallout, the writing and the decisions. Some of the most memorable things I remember about the game is also something completely else:
Like in Fallout 3 you can find a small room under a bridge where somebody must have freaked out, painted some stuff on the wall, before finally hanging himself.
Also in Fallout 3 you can find some satellite dishes. And if you climb on top of them you can see that some punks "celebrated" some kind of "we will all go to hell"-party and all the dish is cluttered with empty beer cans.
Or when you look a round in just a random building and find the parent's sleeping chamber. Toys lying on the floor and the skeleton couple lying in the bed, holding hands. With them their child as they wanted to end it and not live in such a world.
These are some of the greatest moments of Fallout to me. Exploration and psychological drama.

And there are hardly any good movies or games set in these settings. Sure, there are a couple. But compared to fantasy games, well…
Interestingly on the movie side, there isn't such a big difference as "real" fantasy movies are also pretty rare (speaking of a Conan, Willow, Lord of The Rings - Setting).
However they are not that far away from each other. While in games fantasy is just another "background", in the movie format it almost provides the same background as the post apocalyptic setting. You have the danger of monsters and evil troops like in Conan or Legend of the Seeker. You have the exploration of unknown regions, not knowing what to expect next. However as I said before the post apocalyptic setting has better chances to keep it to a lower level, where surviving in the end might be enough for a good ending. In fantasy settings (also Reality+Fantasy mixtures) it tends to be about saving the world, which then might go into the absurd when doing sequels. The story in the second season of Legend of the Seeker for example was quite bad. But series like Heroes, Supernatural or True Blood bascially share the same fate.
A fate which is not really shared by post apocalyptic series like Jeremiah, Jericho, Fallen Skies, Walking Dead and also probably not by Defiance. Only exception here is Revolution, which is quite horrible overall.
As a fan of the post apocalyptic setting, two of my favorite fantasy novels were The Hobbit and Thera Awakening (Novel for Stonekeep). The reason behind it is simple. They focus on exploration and the unknown. While the world in Lord of the Rings is quite fleshed out, it isn't if you start with the hobbit and experience everything from the Hobbit's eyes who don't know anything outside of their town. Pretty much the same in Thera Awakening, which, as far as I remember, starts in a keep which got isolated in some kind of fantasy apocalypse event.

So maybe I could show you some aspects which you did not realize as such before. Maybe you don't care about them and of course that's a matter of personal taste.
Personally I can hardly name 10 good post apocalyptic movies and 10 good post apocalyptic games (without sequels) and would not call it overexposure yet.
If you limit that statement to "fight against zombies" instead of the post apocalyptic setting I'd agree though.
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July 3rd, 2013, 11:16
You say that you find every movie in a post apocalyptic setting to be quite the same. They were all about survival and the human psyche. That there are already enough of this kind of movies and that you see the fantasy setting in a different light.
No, I'm saying they're ABOUT the same thing. There's a big difference between a movie like The Road and a movie like I am Legend - but they're still about being alone against nature and what the point of living is in such a depressing environment.

They're both about survival and scavenging.

They're both about what it means to be human and why we need other human beings for life to be worth a damn.

You know?

-development of human psyche as you said. On a small scale like in Walking Dead or in a community scale. Like people praying to a bomb in Fallout 3 or founding communities to other believes and habits.
Yeah, as I said - that's interesting - but it's just overdone by now. Unless you really love that kind of thing - and you happen to enjoy post-apoc settings in general. I find them depressing.

-But coming with the hostile environment is also the focus on small things, which gain importance. An awesome scene from the road is this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiYeFSu5GGE
Yes, that's what I mean by survival. Scavenging can be very entertaining - but I find it's pretty standard in most RPGs. It's more about how you balance your loot than the actual setting.

-Exploration might also be a great factor. The main protagonist is going out into an unknown world not knowing what is around the next corner, who…or what is inhabiting the next town.
Again, not setting specific.

-An often ocuring element coming with the exploration element is also the stumbling on relics of past times. This again has two effects. One thing is that it gives a shocking impression of what actually happened (remember the Statue of Liberty in Planet of the Apes), or it might bring something into play which only a few people know, as the Coke you saw in the previously linked video, which is a completely new experience for the child and as a viewer it's interesting to see the reaction.
I enjoy these things as well - and it's my favorite part of FO3 - which handled this aspect better than any of the others - to my mind.

But exploration is part of any good RPG - and in fantasy games, you tend to find even more ancient relics or stuff from ages past.

You said that there are already enough of this kind, you mention overexposure to the extreme, but I disagree. While we currently have an explosion due to the hype of the Zombie Apocalypse which I am actually not a big fan of because it often limits the whole setting to the survival while the whole post apocalyptic setting is just tacked on. But there are hardly any movies, or games where all of these points play a big role. And of this we still need more.
Obviously you don't agree - because you enjoy the setting so much. To me, I find the whole Zombie genre blends together with the post-apoc setting quite a lot.

You said that you like the mechanics of Fallout, the writing and the decisions. Some of the most memorable things I remember about the game is also something completely else:
Like in Fallout 3 you can find a small room under a bridge where somebody must have freaked out, painted some stuff on the wall, before finally hanging himself.
Also in Fallout 3 you can find some satellite dishes. And if you climb on top of them you can see that some punks "celebrated" some kind of "we will all go to hell"-party and all the dish is cluttered with empty beer cans.
Or when you look a round in just a random building and find the parent's sleeping chamber. Toys lying on the floor and the skeleton couple lying in the bed, holding hands. With them their child as they wanted to end it and not live in such a world.
These are some of the greatest moments of Fallout to me. Exploration and psychological drama.
I don't see how that's related to the setting as such. Again, good exploration is part of any good RPG. While the things you find will be different depending on setting - I find something like System Shock 2 much more interesting because I love sci-fi, and I really love finding abandoned scenes with that kind of atmosphere. As long as there's a purpose or history to the room or location - I'll be fascinated. It's about the level of detail rather than the actual setting.

And there are hardly any good movies or games set in these settings. Sure, there are a couple. But compared to fantasy games, well…
Interestingly on the movie side, there isn't such a big difference as "real" fantasy movies are also pretty rare (speaking of a Conan, Willow, Lord of The Rings - Setting).
Well, I didn't claim the movies were all that good - but there are plenty of them.

Mad Max, I am Legend, Stalker, Omega Man, Book of Eli, The Road and even something like District 9 have a similar vibe. If we include all the zombie movies - like 28 Days Later and 28 Weeks Later - you might see my point.

But again, it's down to what you like and what you don't like.

However they are not that far away from each other. While in games fantasy is just another "background", in the movie format it almost provides the same background as the post apocalyptic setting. You have the danger of monsters and evil troops like in Conan or Legend of the Seeker. You have the exploration of unknown regions, not knowing what to expect next. However as I said before the post apocalyptic setting has better chances to keep it to a lower level, where surviving in the end might be enough for a good ending. In fantasy settings (also Reality+Fantasy mixtures) it tends to be about saving the world, which then might go into the absurd when doing sequels. The story in the second season of Legend of the Seeker for example was quite bad. But series like Heroes, Supernatural or True Blood bascially share the same fate.
A fate which is not really shared by post apocalyptic series like Jeremiah, Jericho, Fallen Skies, Walking Dead and also probably not by Defiance. Only exception here is Revolution, which is quite horrible overall.
As a fan of the post apocalyptic setting, two of my favorite fantasy novels were The Hobbit and Thera Awakening (Novel for Stonekeep). The reason behind it is simple. They focus on exploration and the unknown. While the world in Lord of the Rings is quite fleshed out, it isn't if you start with the hobbit and experience everything from the Hobbit's eyes who don't know anything outside of their town. Pretty much the same in Thera Awakening, which, as far as I remember, starts in a keep which got isolated in some kind of fantasy apocalypse event.
I find that fantasy movies tend to feel much more varied - and since I don't like the depressing grey/brown feel of post-apoc, I much prefer the vibrant and fantastical nature of fantasy.

I do like low-key survival stuff - but I've had enough of it when it comes to post-apoc settings.

So maybe I could show you some aspects which you did not realize as such before. Maybe you don't care about them and of course that's a matter of personal taste.
Personally I can hardly name 10 good post apocalyptic movies and 10 good post apocalyptic games (without sequels) and would not call it overexposure yet.
If you limit that statement to "fight against zombies" instead of the post apocalyptic setting I'd agree though.
I don't think you can show me a lot of new aspects, no. You really have to accept that sometimes people like different things - because of how their personalities differ at the basic level.

I've seen thousands of movies and I think I have a very good idea of the aspects inherent to the various genres.

Basically, I just don't like post-apoc settings - and I've had quite enough of "survival" and "man against man" at this point.

That's not to say that a really great movie or great game can't appeal to me - but it will be a while before the setting in itself will inspire much excitement.

I'm very much an "immersion" kind of guy. I'm heavily influenced by atmosphere in games - and post-apoc settings affect me negatively. I get depressed myself, and I don't feel good when depressed. Shocking, isn't it?
Last edited by DArtagnan; July 3rd, 2013 at 11:36.
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July 3rd, 2013, 11:45
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
I'm very much an "immersion" kind of guy. I'm heavily influenced by atmosphere in games - and post-apoc settings affect me negatively. I get depressed myself, and I don't feel good when depressed. Shocking, isn't it?
Fair enough.
I am also an immersion kind of guy btw (and hate everything immersion breaking, like the presentation in Mad Max 1, the Sunglasses in Book of Eli, or the City of New Vegas in FO) just that to me this "depression" is quite enjoyable.

And while I am not an emo I'd consider myself a goth.

But yeah, tastes differ. Personally I don't get any enjoyment out of Drug or War-dramas.
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July 3rd, 2013, 12:03
Originally Posted by Kordanor View Post
Fair enough.
I am also an immersion kind of guy btw (and hate everything immersion breaking, like the presentation in Mad Max 1, the Sunglasses in Book of Eli, or the City of New Vegas in FO) just that to me this "depression" is quite enjoyable.

And while I am not an emo I'd consider myself a goth.

But yeah, tastes differ. Personally I don't get any enjoyment out of Drug or War-dramas.
I get what you're saying - and sometimes I do enjoy that kind of depressing feeling.

Stalker, the shooter, worked for me - for whatever reason.

For some reason, I found FO3 the LEAST depressing of the Fallout games. NV was particularly dreary - both because of the western feel and because of Obsidian's utter lack of art skills.

I know this will offend fans, but I think they're REALLY REALLY bad at creating good aesthetics. This is especially evident in KotOR2 and New Vegas.

FO3 had some kind of semi sci-fi feel that felt slightly more vibrant. I liked that.
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July 3rd, 2013, 13:21
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
FO3 had some kind of semi sci-fi feel that felt slightly more vibrant. I liked that.
Then I would recommend to give Old World Blues (F:NV DLC) a go.
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July 3rd, 2013, 16:13
Great conversation to read guys. Unfortunately, I think it has evolved into something too in depth for me to have the time to adequately respond. I agree with Spoonful, though, Old World Blues might be up your alley. I also like the sci-fi elements within Fallout too.
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July 3rd, 2013, 17:35
I didn't mind the retro-futuristic vibe in FO3 (if that's what you guys are referring to), but when Bethesda tried to introduce actual science fiction elements (the Mothership Zeta DLC), the results were terrible imo.
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July 3rd, 2013, 18:45
I'm not quite sure what to call it in FO3. All the Fallouts have that kind of retro-futuristic stuff going on - but FO3 has a more pronounced atmosphere going in that direction, and it just appealed to me.

That strangely greenish tint to everything, including the default interface color gave the game a less depressing atmosphere. More like a toxic wasteland than a barren wasteland - if that makes sense.

Definitely, the "retro-future" aspect is part of that.

Where as in FO:NV - everything was basically brown with a yellow tint - looking clunky and ugly.

You remember that first prison you get to - where all those powder-gangers hang out? Just a supremely dull brown/grey concrete building - like everything inside. 90% of FO:NV had that same dull and uninspired aesthetic. I shudder just thinking about how dreary that game is in terms of overall atmosphere.
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July 3rd, 2013, 19:04
I guess Fallout 3 (modded) is an okay postapocalyptic sandbox, but it is without a shadow of doubt a worst Fallout game imaginable. It completely destroys everything, that made the first games tick, and replaces it with random psycho circus seemingly thrown together for the lulz. When i tried to approach it as a Fallout game, i fucking hated every second of it. And don't even get me started on its godawful writing.
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