|
Your continuous donations keep RPGWatch running!
RPGWatch Forums » Comments » News Comments » ES4: Oblivion - Defining A Generation

Default ES4: Oblivion - Defining A Generation

July 22nd, 2013, 16:04
Originally Posted by Maylander View Post
I agree, but it was more of a natural evolution compared to Morrowind than anything else. It was certainly not ground breaking in any way.
I actually thought the way physics impacted arrow trajectory and the kinetic feeling of melee combat in Oblivion was kinda neat. Not sure I would call it ground breaking - but if you look at the complete package (and forget you're a hardcore RPG fan) - Oblivion was an extremely impressive game.

I certainly felt it was one of the most impressive games I'd ever seen - until I realised how repetitive it was, and how awful the level scaling worked.

That took me a week or so, which is an EXTREMELY long time considering my level of gaming experience.

I'm not surprised it's hailed as a game-changer - and I agree that it was for a very large audience.

Aye, and while it was fairly impressive for an RPG, it was all pretty standard among more actiony games. GTA did everything Oblivion did except skill increases and a fantasy setting.
No, I don't think so. GTA is very shallow when it comes to exploration and the actual mechanics of combat, AI, and so on.

While Oblivion can come off as a very shallow game if you're "in the know" - I still think it was a massive step forward for the open world RPG genre.

Skyrim is actually proof of that - because it's really "only" Oblivion done right, basically.

Since I consider Skyrim to be one of the best games of all time (if not THE best) - it should come as no surprise that I have this opinion about Oblivion.
DArtagnan is offline

DArtagnan

DArtagnan's Avatar
Waste of potential

#21

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Denmark
Posts: 13,047

Default 

July 22nd, 2013, 17:29
This is a website that was hailing Gothic 3 as the oblivion killer before it came out. Then when most realized the dud that Gothic 3 was, they looked for another game to try an crush it.

Oblivion wasn't perfect but it was far from this turd that many want to say. It led us to Skyrim which is an excellent game. I agree with Dart, Skyrim was all the good things taken from Oblivion with teh bad scraped out.

If you don't stand behind your troops, feel free to stand in front.
rune_74 is offline

rune_74

SasqWatch

#22

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,918

Default 

July 22nd, 2013, 17:40
Vanilla Oblivion got boring to me, mainly due to level scaling. I played maybe 25 hours. But once I installed OOO - The only *crucial* mod - and a couple of others, it became the greatest RPG I had ever played. And I started back in the late 80's with Ultima V and Pool Of Radiance.

Since it's Bethesda who has provided the easy modding tools for the modding community, I consider the mods to be part of the official gaming experience. They are a central element of the ES series, and have been for a long time.

The groundbreaking thing about Oblivion was the virtual reality aspect. A massive world, where you can do a ridiculous variety of things, and which you can experience in first person. The graphic/gameplay aspect made it a lot more immersive, than for example any of the Ultimas. Or Morrowind. Or any of the Gothics.

I felt like I lived in another world, and experienced it in person, instead of merely moving little RPG figures around on an elaborate gameboard. It was exactly a kind of game I had anticipated since playing Ultima V back in 1988. A long-held dream finally becoming reality.

OOO fixed the level scaling and some other game balance issues. Making Oblivion satisfyingly challenging. Thieves Arsenal was awesome, turning much of my battles into very strategic cat-and-mouse games. Then there were the general combat and realism mods, along with enhanced graphics.

Since then, only Mass Effect had provided me with an equally groundbreaking RPG gaming experience. Albeit for entirely different reasons.
tuukka is offline

tuukka

Watchdog

#23

Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 104

Default 

July 22nd, 2013, 18:26
I couldn't play Oblivion beyond a few hours per day. It was painful.

There were quite a few bugs when the game was launched which was actually totally acceptable to me considering the scope of the game.

Melee combat devolved a button mashfest although the archery and magic was still good. I agree with DArtagnan, the physics engine was very good.

The level scaling was awful. Dialogue was insipid, story pacing was poor.

And the much acclaimed Radiant AI was anything but. NPCs were voiced by seemingly only a dozen voice actors/actresses. Facial textures were horrendous for a game of that caliber. Animations were routinely janky. The gameplay just ground to a halt and became a bland mindless routine.

I was keeping a close eye on the mods scene to see what could improve the gameplay and after a while, I just got fed up.

What I was experiencing and what the reviews were extolling was ridiculously out of sync. And I found the bias so blatant and offensive that I got completely turned off.

That was the end for me
Dr. A is offline

Dr. A

Dr. A's Avatar
Keeper of the Watch

#24

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Singapore
Posts: 781

Default 

July 22nd, 2013, 19:10
I don't know how you guys can doubt that Oblivion was an evolutionary step in the marriage of the action of a FPS and the nerdy glory of an RPG. The games like it before, earlier Elder Scrolls, Gothic games, and Arx Fatalis just never made the big time appeal that this combination can make. The earlier Elder Scrolls titles were too much RPG (Morrowind's miss mechanic which clashed with actual visual hits), the Gothic games and Arx Fatalis were nowhere near the action and relegated to PC obscurity.

The super big-budget, virtual LARPing RPGs owe a lot to the success of Oblivion. It was the first to reel in millions who wouldn't play the RPGs of their time.
Burress is offline

Burress

Watchdog

#25

Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 133

Default 

July 22nd, 2013, 19:26
As far as I concern, this is a troll-article or written by someone who know very little about gaming in general.

Oblivion made nothing revolutionary. In almost every aspect it's a lesser clone.

Mankind must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind. - John F Kennedy
An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind. - Mahatma Gandhi
The world is my country. To do good is my religion. My mind is my own church. This simple creed is all we need to enjoy peace on earth. - Thomas Paine
JemyM is offline

JemyM

JemyM's Avatar
Okay, now roll sanity.

#26

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 6,017
Send a message via ICQ to JemyM Send a message via MSN to JemyM

Default 

July 22nd, 2013, 19:29
Originally Posted by Burress View Post
I don't know how you guys can doubt that Oblivion was an evolutionary step in the marriage of the action of a FPS and the nerdy glory of an RPG. The games like it before, earlier Elder Scrolls, Gothic games, and Arx Fatalis just never made the big time appeal that this combination can make. The earlier Elder Scrolls titles were too much RPG (Morrowind's miss mechanic which clashed with actual visual hits), the Gothic games and Arx Fatalis were nowhere near the action and relegated to PC obscurity.

The super big-budget, virtual LARPing RPGs owe a lot to the success of Oblivion. It was the first to reel in millions who wouldn't play the RPGs of their time.
Oblivion made RPGs commercially successful by simplifying/dumbing them down for console players. I don't think that commercial success is a good indicator of quality, though. Oblivion was a game changer in the sense that reality TV-series were game changers… to use a cruel analogy.
enm is offline

enm

enm's Avatar
Watcher

#27

Join Date: May 2013
Location: Norway
Posts: 58

Default 

July 22nd, 2013, 19:34
Originally Posted by enm View Post
Oblivion made RPGs commercially successful by simplifying/dumbing them down for console players.
Oblivion is a far more complex game than the great majority of old school RPG's. And while the badly implement level scaling was an obvious flaw, it was easy to fix it by installing a single mod.
tuukka is offline

tuukka

Watchdog

#28

Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 104

Default 

July 22nd, 2013, 20:54
Originally Posted by enm View Post
Oblivion made RPGs commercially successful by simplifying/dumbing them down for console players. I don't think that commercial success is a good indicator of quality, though. Oblivion was a game changer in the sense that reality TV-series were game changers… to use a cruel analogy.
In the style of Oblivion we have Skyrim, the Mass Effect trilogy, and the Dark Souls series. To some these are reality TV-series type of games, to others these are the fun direction to take RPGs in general. One person's dumbing down the game is far more persons' making it less abstract and more visceral. I don't understand the dumbing down argument anymore, either you like action RPGs in the style of first person immersion or you don't.

But it's not like these are the only type of RPGs being made, the classic-style RPG of the late 90's and early 2000s is flourishing. The fact that Oblivion was a huge commercial success meant that big-budget RPGs are viable, so we can have the games I listed before in addition to exciting titles like Project Eternity on the horizon.
Burress is offline

Burress

Watchdog

#29

Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 133

Default 

July 22nd, 2013, 20:57
Originally Posted by tuukka View Post
Oblivion is a far more complex game than the great majority of old school RPG's. And while the badly implement level scaling was an obvious flaw, it was easy to fix it by installing a single mod.
When I think of old school RPGs I tend to think of Baldur's Gate 1-2, The Elder Scrolls 1-2, Gothic 1-2, Ultima 1-8, Planescape Torment, Eye of the Beholder 1-3, Might & Magic 1-8, and Fallout 1-2. I think all of those have a radically steeper learning curve and higher difficulty than Oblivion, though perhaps you have other old school RPGs in mind.
enm is offline

enm

enm's Avatar
Watcher

#30

Join Date: May 2013
Location: Norway
Posts: 58

Default 

July 22nd, 2013, 21:15
Originally Posted by Burress View Post
In the style of Oblivion we have Skyrim, the Mass Effect trilogy, and the Dark Souls series. To some these are reality TV-series type of games, to others these are the fun direction to take RPGs in general. One person's dumbing down the game is far more persons' making it less abstract and more visceral. I don't understand the dumbing down argument anymore, either you like action RPGs in the style of first person immersion or you don't.

But it's not like these are the only type of RPGs being made, the classic-style RPG of the late 90's and early 2000s is flourishing. The fact that Oblivion was a huge commercial success meant that big-budget RPGs are viable, so we can have the games I listed before in addition to exciting titles like Project Eternity on the horizon.
Indeed, though that's a very recent development triggered by the Kickstarter phenomenon. Back when Oblivion was being developed/released, things were looking rather grim for old school role players (at least for those who wanted something new). I myself stuck with playing Neverwinter Nights on a couple of private RP-servers on and off for 5-6 years or so, with the occasional replay of Gothic 1-2 and Baldur's Gate 1-2 to mix things up. Then, thankfully, The Witcher came into the picture.

We're finally at the end of a long period of mostly stagnation now.
Last edited by enm; July 22nd, 2013 at 21:30.
enm is offline

enm

enm's Avatar
Watcher

#31

Join Date: May 2013
Location: Norway
Posts: 58

Default 

July 22nd, 2013, 21:24
Originally Posted by enm View Post
When I think of old school RPGs I tend to think of Baldur's Gate 1-2, The Elder Scrolls 1-2, Gothic 1-2, Ultima 1-8, Planescape Torment, Eye of the Beholder 1-3, Might & Magic 1-8, and Fallout 1-2. I think all of those have a radically steeper learning curve and higher difficulty than Oblivion, though perhaps you have other old school RPGs in mind.
Many of those games were quite different from each other. They aim to do very different things within the RPG genre.

But regardless, the learning curve / higher difficulty issue of Oblivion can be handled by putting the difficulty at the hardest. And after that, once you add a scaling-removal mod and a realism mod (Including eating, sleeping, disease, etc), Oblivion can have a steeper learning curve and higher difficulty than any of the games you mentioned.

That's what's fun about the ES series. You can tailor the game to fit your own taste.

The Oblivion I played was a relentless, unforgiving experience.

I haven't yet started my full play-through of Skyrim. I'm soon updating to a faster computer, and once I have it, I will update the graphics to be 200% better. Of course I also will add the Realistic Lighting Overhaul, and more varied weather.

I will add the Frostbite mod, so that the weather conditions will affect my gameplay. I will have the Realistic Needs And Diseases, which requires me to eat, drink, sleep, and take care of my health. I will make the civil war more ravaging and active with Civil Unrest.

I will get Healthfire, to build my own home, and to have my own children. I will add Adura's Merchant mod to start my own trading business. And I will get Tundra Defense, so I can start my own town, get my own tax-paying citizens, my own army, etc.

Not to mention Dawnguard and numerous other mods, that will give me 50-100 new quests to do. And then there are going to be countless of new monsters and loot.

I like being 100% immersed in a world, struggling to survive, yet being able to do anything I want. The Skyrim I'm going to play is going to be bigger, more complex, and more demanding than any of the games you mentioned.
Last edited by tuukka; July 22nd, 2013 at 21:40.
tuukka is offline

tuukka

Watchdog

#32

Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 104

Default 

July 22nd, 2013, 21:49
Originally Posted by tuukka View Post
Many of those games were quite different from each other. They aim to do very different things within the RPG genre.

But regardless, the learning curve / higher difficulty issue of Oblivion can be handled by putting the difficulty at the hardest. And after that, once you add a scaling-removal mod and a realism mod (Including eating, sleeping, disease, etc), Oblivion can have a steeper learning curve and higher difficulty than any of the games you mentioned.

That's what's fun about the ES series. You can tailor the game to fit your own taste.

The Oblivion I played was a relentless, unforgiving experience.

I haven't yet started my full play-through of Skyrim. I'm soon updating to a faster computer, and once I have it, I will update the graphics to be 200% better. Of course I also will add the Realistic Lighting Overhaul, and more varied weather.

I will add the Frostbite mod, so that the weather conditions will affect my gameplay. I will have the Realistic Needs And Diseases, which requires me to eat, drink, sleep, and take care of my health. I will make the civil war more ravaging and active with Civil Unrest.

I will get Healthfire, to build my own home, and to have my own children. I will add Adura's Merchant mod to start my own trading business. And I will get Tundra Defense, so I can start my own town, get my own tax-paying citizens, my own army, etc.

Not to mention Dawnguard and numerous other mods, that will give me 50-100 new quests to do. And then there are going to be countless of new monsters and loot.

I like being 100% immersed in a world, struggling to survive, yet being able to do anything I want. The Skyrim I'm going to play is going to be bigger, more complex, and more demanding than any of the games you mentioned.
Likewise, I've recently started playing Skyrim with all the mods you've mentioned, as well as numerous others, all with the aim of emulating the complexity and challenge of old school RPGs. SkyRe and Frostbite are the two core mods that make all the difference.
enm is offline

enm

enm's Avatar
Watcher

#33

Join Date: May 2013
Location: Norway
Posts: 58

Default 

July 22nd, 2013, 22:21
I will also probably install Enhanced Enemy A.I and Locational Damage, as from what I've heard, they make the combat a lot more tactical and dangerous.
tuukka is offline

tuukka

Watchdog

#34

Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 104

Default 

July 22nd, 2013, 22:48
Originally Posted by tuukka View Post
I will also probably install Enhanced Enemy A.I and Locational Damage, as from what I've heard, they make the combat a lot more tactical and dangerous.
You should probably reconsider Locational Damage. Just take a look at the comments over at the Nexus… One user sums it up: "This mod still have lots of problems (…) the mod will simply stop working sometimes (extremely annoying) and if you look at the comments below you'll see many people are having many different problems. All we can do by now is hope the mod's author is still working on it." It's also a bit inconsistent in the sense that it only applies to humanoid NPCs and draugr.

As for Enhanced Enemy AI, it may be very good for all I know, but so far I'm very happy with SkyRe's AI module.

P.S. I've spent far more time investigating, installing, configuring, and testing mods, than I've spent actually playing the game. The dark side of complexity… Whenever I think I'm set, I start playing for a few moments only to discover a new kind of glitch or incompatibility. I may grow tired of Skyrim before I even feel ready to do a full playthrough. I'm on my third break from Skyrim even though I've barely played it.

Makes me long for… oh, I don't know… the old school RPGs that didn't require countless hours of modding in order to provide a relatively streamlined and challenging experience with decent complexity.
Last edited by enm; July 22nd, 2013 at 23:08.
enm is offline

enm

enm's Avatar
Watcher

#35

Join Date: May 2013
Location: Norway
Posts: 58

Default 

July 22nd, 2013, 22:52
Top 100 Games list (per latest issue of PCGamer) places Skyrim at the number one position.

Dart should feel validated (not that he doesn't anyway).

But all kidding beside, Skyrim was pretty good, once you fixed the terrible UI…
Last edited by Thrasher; July 23rd, 2013 at 00:30.
Thrasher is offline

Thrasher

Thrasher's Avatar
Wheeee!
RPGWatch Donor

#36

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Studio City, CA
Posts: 9,645

Default 

July 23rd, 2013, 00:20
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Since I consider Skyrim to be one of the best games of all time (if not THE best) - it should come as no surprise that I have this opinion about Oblivion.
I too reluctantly consider Skyrim one of the best games ever (reluctant because like fine wines, a great game deserves to sit for awhile before considering its possibilities).

However, to me Oblivion came nowhere close to the greatness of Morrowind. Oblivion's superior graphical presentation did not mean more immersion for me. And monsters chasing you all over the map was nonsense as was the guards ability to determine when you were sneaking into someone's house. Oblivions graphics keep me in the game for a while but I left the game as soon as some new shinny game came out. I have no desire to go back to Oblivion. (Unlike Skyrim where I am anxiously awaiting DLCs)

OTOH, maybe the Author's original statement is correct. Perhaps ES4 did define a generation. But I wonder what generation he's talking about? Because for this gamer who came up with Wiz, Ultima and M&M when they first came out, Oblivion's defining would fall under M for Mediocre.

or perhaps V for Very Mediocre.
Dajjer is offline

Dajjer

Dajjer's Avatar
Keeper of the Watch

#37

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Los Angeles area
Posts: 879

Default 

July 23rd, 2013, 00:25
Skyrim was ok imo, I thought Oblivion was seriously overrated. I did play both, and found them fun, but neither were awe-inspiring. I leave that term for better games, such as Fallout (1-2) and the goldbox games. Hmm, I'd toss the first 4 wizardries in the awesome category as well. It honestly seems to me these days that the best games in the genre are behind us, or at least behind me.



-Carn
Carnifex is offline

Carnifex

Keeper of the Watch

#38

Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, CA
Posts: 1,352

Default 

July 23rd, 2013, 00:54
Originally Posted by Carnifex View Post
Skyrim was ok imo, I thought Oblivion was seriously overrated. I did play both, and found them fun, but neither were awe-inspiring. I leave that term for better games, such as Fallout (1-2) and the goldbox games. Hmm, I'd toss the first 4 wizardries in the awesome category as well. It honestly seems to me these days that the best games in the genre are behind us, or at least behind me.

-Carn
That's because you got older.

Goldbox games and Wizardry series are terrible by modern quality standards. And I'm not talking about graphics. They are just inept at almost everything, yet they felt like the most amazing thing ever back in the 80's.

To a lot of people, nothing can quite ever capture the excitement and joy they were able to feel when they were younger.

I have become a bit more jaded about games myself. But mostly because I find real live life a lot more exciting and fun, than what it was when I was a youngster. A game has to be really, really good to compete with real life.

Nostalgia aside (And nostalgia is a jaded man's disease), I find 80's and early 90's RPG pretty much unplayable nowadays. With Nethack being an exception to the rule.
tuukka is offline

tuukka

Watchdog

#39

Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 104

Default 

July 23rd, 2013, 00:56
I truly never feel any sense of personal satisfaction in any of the TES titles. After a while, whether it be 20 hours for Oblivion or 80 hours for Skyrim, I get bored of the same dungeons, quests, and hackneyed conversations playing out again and again.

This recycling of content is a symptom of Bethesda's sandbox gameplay and, while I tend to partake of it simply to satiate my curiosity for the game, I fully realize while going into the affair that I'll likely get bored and move on after a while, having experienced no sense of resolution or closure to the game. And that lack of closure to me is what will always prevent a TES title from being more than simply a 'good' RPG (if even that, in the case of Oblivion which was downright awful).
Drithius is online now

Drithius

Drithius's Avatar
Misbegotten Alien

#40

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Florida, USA
Posts: 2,164
RPGWatch Forums » Comments » News Comments » ES4: Oblivion - Defining A Generation
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT +2. The time now is 19:29.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright by RPGWatch