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Default Drakensang - Dev Diary #10 @ Drakensang.info

July 16th, 2007, 22:01
Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
@ Skavenhorde:

That wasen't a Bug, this was a Feature.

Somewhere it is mentioned that the Hygeliks Treasure is cursed and that no one who picks up even a single coin of it is allowed to leave the dungeon.

<—- fanatic NLT-Defender

Edit:

Argh.. Startrail, not Blade of Destiny… that must be a bug

I know I wasn't the only one that landed that nasty one. I was supposed to put the real stone in the door and the door would open but it never did anything… I think it said mine was a copy. I could be mistaken it has been awhile since I played but since that was the last door I needed to get into to basically win the game I consider it a win after searching for hours for the original stone and not finding it.

*Scary Screech oh pain* from Scavenhorde not ever beeing able to open that door. Should of sent my Rat Ogres, they'd open up that door fast

Despite all my rage.
I'm still just a rat in a cage.
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July 16th, 2007, 23:18
Originally Posted by roqua View Post
The fact is they tailor their marketing speach to their audience, as any smart business would. You stress the part you think will be a selling point to that audience, and downplay what you think won't be. You try and be everything to everyone. Create a need and desire. What they did wrong was stress something a large portion of the old RoA fans (and the pnp fans) hold near and dear with rhetoric we can see through. No big deal. Just makes me angry. Obviously I'm alone in this, so it doesn't matter. But it did happen, and often. You crazy, crazy, gastapos.
Hehe, well, that's what I meant when I said that you might have been affected by "selective hearing/reading". My personal impression was different and my expectations were different, too. I never in my right mind expected RoA/TDE to return to the PC with a turn-based combat system. That just wasn't and still isn't ever going to happen again.

Also, I thought that the folks from Radon Labs and dtp/Anaconda were very open and actually pretty straight-forward in their communication about the game's features. Now I know that someone like you who isn't into "diplomatic" talk at all probably would have preferred a straight "Look, we're going to fuck you old schoolers in the ass. Deep and hard. And if you don't like it we'll pay for your trip to our office and we'll show you that we mean it, too" (any similarity of the previous sentence to what might have happened on another RPG forum recently with or without your involvement is purely coincidental, of course ).

Well, anyway, most people prefer a more subtle approach and I do think that Radon/dtp actually managed to find a good balance between being direct and straight-forward in setting expectations straight and at the same time maintaining a friendly, polite and pleasant tone that I would not even call "marketing speak". The PCG article included some marketing speak but on the forums they just did tell it like it is.
The forums were naturally at first populated by the hardcore DSA (TDE) fans so there were a lot of plain unrealistic feature requests and ideas put out there in the beginning. All that Radon/dtp did was let those people (the "dreamers") know that they should please be so kind as to have realistic expectations. I mean why should they piss those peeps off in addition to shattering their dreams? That would be kind of mean .
Bottom line: I always felt that they were very direct, open and honest in their communication but that's just my own perception and impression, of course.
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July 16th, 2007, 23:22
Originally Posted by Avantenor View Post
The trailer you quoted, was made for a role play convention in germany, including LARP and pen / paper productions, so it was simplified. For hardcore gamers that maybe implies wrong terms, but they made it obvious in their other interviews, statements and press releases that real turnbased combat never was an option to them. You could also see it in the same trailer, when it comes to fighting sequence. The text is only Vasilii's and my translation to give you an impression what Bernd said in the interview part.

BTW: RT fanatics would say, RTwP is turnbased, because real time means click = action. In fact, the rule set behind combat is turnbased and many gamers never will find out the difference between RTwP and real TB. Result: Simplification. Plz don't complain about this, because it was made clear from the beginning, that it was RTwP, and dtp has the right to attract even casual and pen & paper only gamers in a different context. This trailer was made in a different context and you eventually would never have seen the trailer or the translation, and you would never have thought from the pictures that it could be turnbased. So when I translated the interview I made this ed to make this point clear for all hardcore gamers.
That is retarded and exactly what I'm talking about. Are pnp fans in danger of stabbing themselves in the eye with the mouse also? Do they get all confuse and jam up turnstiles? I know the word “turn” is complex and above the average persons comprehension level, but I’d figure it was a term most pnp fans would be comfortable with.

And in what crazy world is everyone moving at the same time and people taking turns the same? If you can’t give people that play real rpgs the straight poop on a crpg then who can you give it to?

Even in the beginning the people doing the interviews would say “round-based” and other nonsense. One instance sticks out in my head where they claimed it was “more strategically and tactical.”

To convert pen & paper rules to PC is always difficult and we tried to find a compromise between an easy handling and converting as many pen & paper rules as possible. The reason why we want to convert the original rules is simple: It is an completely balanced system that works and we want do interfere as little as possible.
Let me quote that again for dramatic effect. Interfere as little as possible? Oh yeah? What activity will I be engaging in the most if I buy this game? Hop-scotch? Baking? Dialogue? Walking? Or Combat? Yes, combat. That’s it. So the activity I engage in the most was interfered with the most. That makes sense. It’s the rhetoric. It’s demeaning and retarded. The system works well and is completely balanced, huh? So good the most crucial part was gutted and dumbyfied and made all hot and actiony and injected with super-awesome?

If I had a glove in my hand and you were in front of me I’d challenge you to a duel. Our weapons would be our genitals, and whoever could write their name in the snow faster and better would win. I’d win the duel and you’d feel quite silly. And as the winner I would force the Drakensang people to talk to their audience like at least a hand full of them were adults that could comprehend every day concepts and terms without retarded rhetoric fuel-injected with keywords and pizzazz.

All right Gestapo’s, start flaming. I ate my wheaties and I’m ready.
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July 16th, 2007, 23:28
Originally Posted by Moriendor View Post
Hehe, well, that's what I meant when I said that you might have been affected by "selective hearing/reading". My personal impression was different and my expectations were different, too. I never in my right mind expected RoA/TDE to return to the PC with a turn-based combat system. That just wasn't and still isn't ever going to happen again.

Also, I thought that the folks from Radon Labs and dtp/Anaconda were very open and actually pretty straight-forward in their communication about the game's features. Now I know that someone like you who isn't into "diplomatic" talk at all probably would have preferred a straight "Look, we're going to fuck you old schoolers in the ass. Deep and hard. And if you don't like it we'll pay for your trip to our office and we'll show you that we mean it, too" (any similarity of the previous sentence to what might have happened on another RPG forum recently with or without your involvement is purely coincidental, of course ).

Well, anyway, most people prefer a more subtle approach and I do think that Radon/dtp actually managed to find a good balance between being direct and straight-forward in setting expectations straight and at the same time maintaining a friendly, polite and pleasant tone that I would not even call "marketing speak". The PCG article included some marketing speak but on the forums they just did tell it like it is.
The forums were naturally at first populated by the hardcore DSA (TDE) fans so there were a lot of plain unrealistic feature requests and ideas put out there in the beginning. All that Radon/dtp did was let those people (the "dreamers") know that they should please be so kind as to have realistic expectations. I mean why should they piss those peeps off in addition to shattering their dreams? That would be kind of mean .
Bottom line: I always felt that they were very direct, open and honest in their communication but that's just my own perception and impression, of course.
GASTAPO!!!!!
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July 16th, 2007, 23:36
Originally Posted by roqua View Post
GASTAPO!!!!!
U CRAZEEE BIATCH!!!!
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July 17th, 2007, 00:54
Well, a new BG might be the most "hardcore" thing we can hope for, from the mainstream…

The Germans are a cruel race. Their operas last for six hours and they have no word for "fluffy".

Captain Blackadder
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July 17th, 2007, 11:16
Originally Posted by roqua View Post
Even in the beginning the people doing the interviews would say “round-based” and other nonsense.
Don´t blame them if your primitive language isn´t capable of correctly representing the perfectly fine German word "rundenbasiert"!
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July 19th, 2007, 15:08
I often wrote "round-based" myself in the beginning.
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July 19th, 2007, 22:43
I think "turn based" is the correctly representing "rundenbasiert" but I could be wrong :-)

Nevertheless, please don't blame the Drakensang Devs for the fact that it is impossible to create a successful oldschool turn based RPG. I think if it was possible they would do it.

And you really can't accuse them of lying. The game is neither true RT nor true TB in my opinion.

True TB would be Diablo/WoW style hack and slay.

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July 19th, 2007, 22:48
damn… one "the" too much… esposed myself…

german fanboy

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July 19th, 2007, 23:14
Originally Posted by CBK View Post
I think "turn based" is the correctly representing "rundenbasiert" but I could be wrong :-)

Nevertheless, please don't blame the Drakensang Devs for the fact that it is impossible to create a successful oldschool turn based RPG. I think if it was possible they would do it.

And you really can't accuse them of lying. The game is neither true RT nor true TB in my opinion.

True TB would be Diablo/WoW style hack and slay.
Not true. Let me educate you. In this game all actions take place in a round. A round, in this game, is a normalized peroid that actions can happen in. No one has a "round." As everyone acts at the same time in that round, its everyone's round. Just as everyone takes their actions (turns) together. Turn or round being exlusive when used in the rpg sense, whereas round in this game's sense is inclusive. RT=together.

Granted RT=real time, which should mean real time. But when applied to a game it doesn't. Game time is the real time of the game. And if you compare day/night cycles with the amount of time taken to swing a sword in Gothic my point is point is proven.

I'm sure you meant "True RT would be Diablo/WoW style hack and slay," as that fits with your argument much better (don't worry, I can barely speak English and thats the only language I know, so I'm not critisizing your typo as I make at least 50 per post). But, I disgree. Those games are more twitchy, but just as RT as NWN and this game. If everyone can move at once, they are moving in what will be considered for the game as RT. If movement is exclusive, either by a turn, a round, etc, then time isn't real, thus not RT.

Let me give an example to confse my argument. There is an rpg called "The Burning Wheel." For combat, time turns into what they call an "Exchange." In this exchange are multiple 3 vollies. You chose what you want your character to do in those three vollies. Example: Strike, Avoid, Push and thrust. The GM, or other player, writes down what the opponent will do for the vollies. For instance, opponent could write down: Avoid, Avoid, Avoid. So in volly two both characters avoid each other.

So, actions do occur simultaneously for the most part. There is a lot more to it than that, but its an interesting cog in my neat discription that is hard to catagorize easily.
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July 20th, 2007, 15:27
k youre right it isn't turn based


but it will still be more of an oldschool RPG than for example Oblivion (which had Diablo Click Fest combats). I really expect more tactical depth and I am confident, that the game will hold up to my expectations.

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July 21st, 2007, 02:33
Avantenor,

I purchased The Dark Eye core book (good deal, $15 at drivethrurpg). I am so happy I got in a discussion/debate with you. This system is great, and clears up a lot of misconceptions I had with RoA. Very innovative (even though its been around for 20+ years right?). This book only contains 2 gifts, and the only other two English books aren't rule books (two modules, and a geography book, but still a great purchase.
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July 21st, 2007, 22:04
Originally Posted by roqua View Post
Very innovative (even though its been around for 20+ years right?).
The basic rules were made in the early 80s (boxes from there are collector's items mostly nowadays, depending on preservation), but the newest box is from I think 2001 or so.

The 4th edition is - as I already said - a major step apart from everything that was happening before that.

Does your book have a year when it was printed ? This should be an indication which edition it is.

How does it look like ? Can you find it via google images with the keyword "Das Schwarze Auge" (with or without quotation marks ) ?
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July 22nd, 2007, 00:22
Its 4th edition. Copyright 2003. Its a pdf from drivethrurpg. Found it from this site. http://www.thedarkeyerpg.com/news.htm

If you click under products you'll see that not much has been translated into english, though I do believe for this core rulebook a lot was consolodated from the german books. The only thing it seems to be missing (for core rules) is gifts. It only lists two (dwarfnose and danger sense). At one part it did make reference to a future suppliment, but that hasn't been made yet. Fantatsic rules system though, and worth the purchase for anyone who plays RoA just to figure out what the manula did absolutley zero at explaining. I know a lot has changed, but the core mechanics seem to be the same.
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July 22nd, 2007, 01:02
I still own, I think, several Black Eye books I purchased when I was in highschool. I don't know what edition they are, but it's definitely an early one as this was in the late 80s. They were french translations of the beginner and advanced rulesets (each came in a large plastic box with a map, dice and character sheets; plus the advanced box had an Aventuria lore book) and many adventure books, both solo and group. I loved the combat rules, I found them simple and elegant. When I showed the books to a friend of mine he laughed and brought out the AD&D 2nd edition player's handbook. Now those were rules.
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July 22nd, 2007, 18:03
One "Kampfrunde" (Fighting-Turn) in TDE is a time period of 3 seconds, and in these 3 seconds every character involved in combat has one action and one reaction.
Although of course in P&P these actions and reactions are handled one player after another, in reality everybody would be doing their stuff more or less at the sime time, in the same time-period etc.
Thats also what everybody, including the GM, should imagine in his head, so that he can then consider this in his decisions.
It would be a bit tedious if everybody would have to choose their actions for this round before every round, and then everything would be executed automatically. But it would be more realistic, more intense.
And thats exactly what is done in Drakensang, and I'm totally happy with it. What are you complaining about, when they implement every stat that affects combat in exactly the same manner it would in P&P, even "initiative" (so that in fact not everything is happening at the same time, but everybody takes his actions in a certain order, but in a very short time-period)?
"Real TB"-combat is totally and completely unrealistic and wouldn't fit into the "fantastic realism"-setting of TDE in a CRPG today.

And to stress again what I said first (don't know if you've got it):
A "turn" in P&P-TDE is a time-period of 3 seconds, in which EVERYBODY involved in combat acts.
A "turn" is not the actions one character does, followed by the "turn" of another, but its the actions ALL characters do in this time-period.
"Turn" in TDE is defined by a ("real"-)time-period, so the criticism Roqua mentions is actually a bit besides the point.
In other words: Drakensang is purely TB; very much so, considering the narrow definition of "turn" in the source-material.
Last edited by ulixes; July 22nd, 2007 at 18:10.
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July 22nd, 2007, 18:20
"Real TB"-combat is totally and completely unrealistic and wouldn't fit into the "fantastic realism"-setting of TDE in a CRPG today.
Of course, what a silly idea to think otherwise, or even to consider the dreadful combat system as explained and applied while playing a pnp game.

And to stress again what I said first (don't know if you've got it):
A "turn" in P&P-TDE is a time-period of 3 seconds, in which EVERYBODY involved in combat acts.
A "turn" is not the actions one character does, followed by the "turn" of another, but its the actions ALL characters do in this time-period.
"Turn" in TDE is defined by a ("real"-)time-period, so the criticism Roqua mentions is actually a bit besides the point.
In other words: Drakensang is purely TB; very much so, considering the narrow definition of "turn" in the source-material.
And in d&d its 6 seconds. In harn its 10 seconds. In tros its 1-2 seconds. TDE 3 seconds.

And you are confusing turn with round. Let me copy and paste from the source material:

Combat round = about 3 seconds
Game turn = 5 minutes
1 Middenmile = 1 kilometer
1 pace = 1 meter
1 span = 20 centimeters
1 finger = 2 centimeters
1 greatpound = 1 kilogram
1 ounce = 25 grams
So, you are wrong. And when I say turn, i mean what is generally accepted pnp and crpg termonology.

What most pnp rpgs call a turn they call an initiative step or phase. Here, I'll quote again:

A combat round is defined as a unit of time needed for a single exchange of blows, meaning that each of the combatants gets an opportunity to attack and parry once; a combat round is equal to roughly three seconds. In any combat round, the actions of all combatants are resolved in order of initiative ranking (highest initiative going first). Initiative is counted down number by number, with each number representing one initiative step or phase.
Everything I've said still holds true 100&#37;. Everything you''ve said does not and is silly nonsense. I win again.


Turn" in TDE is defined by a ("real"-)time-period, so the criticism Roqua mentions is actually a bit besides the point.
Just to add that this is true (a round being a set time peroid) for every pnp rpg ever invented, and is absolutley no diferent in TDE. ToEE is TB and the rounds are vbased on a 6-second time peroid.

In other words: Drakensang is purely TB; very much so, considering the narrow definition of "turn" in the source-material.
Maybe in insaneland, where reality is ignored and thinking is for the silly, but here in the real world, Drakensang is purely RT; very much so, considering the narrow definition of the term "turn" when applied to combat being turn-base, a dictionary, and common sense.
Last edited by roqua; July 22nd, 2007 at 18:30.
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July 22nd, 2007, 18:27
I have played only three sessions with The Dark Eye, but I don't remember that we ever kept the time of 3 seconds in mind.

But, these were only beginner sessions.

Since then, I've completely switched over to C-RPG, although I always kept my "table experience" in mind & memory.

I think I shall try finding a group, then.


The older editions were sold in France and in the Netherlands (het Nederlande ) as well, with translated titles.

You can find a discussion on translated versions here :
http://forum.ulisses-spiele.de/viewtopic.php?t=320

Ulisses is the new publisher. The old one was Fantasy Productions (FanPro), who will still deliver novels around this fantasy world.
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July 22nd, 2007, 18:41
Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer View Post
I have played only three sessions with The Dark Eye, but I don't remember that we ever kept the time of 3 seconds in mind.

But, these were only beginner sessions.

Since then, I've completely switched over to C-RPG, although I always kept my "table experience" in mind & memory.

I think I shall try finding a group, then.


The older editions were sold in France and in the Netherlands (het Nederlande ) as well, with translated titles.

You can find a discussion on translated versions here :
http://forum.ulisses-spiele.de/viewtopic.php?t=320

Ulisses is the new publisher. The old one was Fantasy Productions (FanPro), who will still deliver novels around this fantasy world.

You never kept 3 seconds in mind because it doesn't matter. It could be six seconds and it would play exactly the same. The only thing that matters is if I'm able to act nefore you do, or the die roll when something gets their turn to act. Every rpg system has a time set for the action segment generally called a round. Every single one of them. This in no way differentiates TDE from any other system. The only significant difference between a combat round, turn, iniative in Harn, D&D, TDe, etc is the mechanics behind how iniative is determined and the mechanics behind the rolls of the actions taken during a turn.
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