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Default Pope Francis describes ‘ideological Christians’ as a ‘serious illness’

January 5th, 2014, 18:54
Originally Posted by Damian View Post
I have yet to see any proof that one kind of animal can evolve to another. Sure there is mendellian variation but never any real evolution. Both sides dont really have any real proof.
Speciation is actually a very simple concept:

At the most basic level it is going to occur whenever two animals, formerly of the same species, can't or don't produce viable offspring. A common reason for this (allopatric speciation) is when two populations of the same species get geographically separated, so that members of each gene pool start to vary independently. Then if individuals later meet each other they can't (or don't) have offspring since they've diverged in some way - that can be as simple as size differences (imagine a dachshund trying to mate with a great dane) or even that individuals from the different populations just don't "fancy" each other any more (so they don't compete in each other's sexual selection market). That then isolates the two gene pools so that they continue to vary independently.

And yes, the scientific literature is full of evidence for this type of speciation including actual observation of speciation in the laboratory. You just have to look for it and leave your preconceptions behind. There is no proof in science, just overwhelming evidence.
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January 5th, 2014, 19:05
Originally Posted by Damian View Post
Well he is right about one thing the human genome is deteriorating.
Evolution only occurs when there is pressure for it to occur from natural selection. If a large proportion of humans with defects survive to reproductive age due, for instance, to modern medicine, then one can expect defects to continue to be passed on.

Evolution is not a compassionate process; the only reason that animals become adapted to their environments is that those animals that were not adapted didn't (on average) survive long enough to reproduce.
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Default Pope Francis describes ‘ideological Christians’ as a ‘serious illness’

January 5th, 2014, 19:14
Originally Posted by Damian View Post
Well he is right about one thing the human genome is deteriorating.



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK7566/

http://discovermagazine.com/2013/jul…obably-harmful





As for proof the earth is young. I honestly dunno. But the fossil record isnt proof of evolution rather it is at best circumstantial evidence where you draw lines to say evolution is true.



I have yet to see any proof that one kind of animal can evolve to another. Sure there is mendellian variation but never any real evolution. Both sides dont really have any real proof.

Well I know that you didn't read the entirety of the first article as it even says that DNA can gain information as Roq described.

Large-scale chromosome abnormalities involve loss or gain of chromosomes or breakage and rejoining of chromatids (see Section 2.6)
Additionally, you should read the entire book and not just the section talking about what you want…

As it says in the article:
Mutations are the raw fuel that drives evolution, but they can also be pathogenic
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January 5th, 2014, 20:40
I am aware of that. Its just that there are more negative mutations than positive iirc they are mostly negative mutations.
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January 5th, 2014, 20:55
Originally Posted by Damian View Post
I am aware of that. Its just that there are more negative mutations than positive iirc they are mostly negative mutations.
First of all I didn't count how many good or bad mutations there are, but that doesn't matter.

Bad mutations will stop propagating once they get too bad while good ones will keep on doing so.

See Roq's statement :

Evolution is not a compassionate process; the only reason that animals become adapted to their environments is that those animals that were not adapted didn't (on average) survive long enough to reproduce.
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January 5th, 2014, 21:10
Originally Posted by Pladio View Post
Bad mutations will stop propagating once they get too bad while good ones will keep on doing so.
That maybe true.
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January 5th, 2014, 21:13
Originally Posted by Roq View Post
Speciation is actually a very simple concept:

At the most basic level it is going to occur whenever two animals, formerly of the same species, can't or don't produce viable offspring. A common reason for this (allopatric speciation) is when two populations of the same species get geographically separated, so that members of each gene pool start to vary independently. Then if individuals later meet each other they can't (or don't) have offspring since they've diverged in some way - that can be as simple as size differences (imagine a dachshund trying to mate with a great dane) or even that individuals from the different populations just don't "fancy" each other any more (so they don't compete in each other's sexual selection market). That then isolates the two gene pools so that they continue to vary independently.

And yes, the scientific literature is full of evidence for this type of speciation including actual observation of speciation in the laboratory. You just have to look for it and leave your preconceptions behind. There is no proof in science, just overwhelming evidence.
The bible doesnt argue against speciation. Just "evolution". Like can a mouse ever grow wings? Infact for the bible to be true rapid speciation must have happened after the flood. Or as you call it adaption.
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January 5th, 2014, 21:31
Originally Posted by Pladio View Post
First of all I didn't count how many good or bad mutations there are, but that doesn't matter.

Bad mutations will stop propagating once they get too bad while good ones will keep on doing so.

See Roq's statement :
Well, it is still not evidence for evolution.
I do not know of any good mutations.
They are always fatal in the long run since it never have been OBSERVED
anything else than loss of information
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January 5th, 2014, 21:39
Originally Posted by Pladio View Post
First of all I didn't count how many good or bad mutations there are, but that doesn't matter.

Bad mutations will stop propagating once they get too bad while good ones will keep on doing so.

See Roq's statement :
Still no evidence for evolution…
There are not any good mutation.
A mutation is a missbuild, a loss, like if you lose a body function or a nerve that protects you. Say, you cant feel any pain so you can walk through woods on fire.
It might save you one time but in the long run it will kill you.
Thats not evolution.
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January 5th, 2014, 21:42
Originally Posted by Damian View Post
The bible doesnt argue against speciation. Just "evolution". Like can a mouse ever grow wings? Infact for the bible to be true rapid speciation must have happened after the flood. Or as you call it adaption.
But that's the problem! There, simply are not enough generations in 5k years for any substantial evolution to occur. Humans around 2k-3k years ago (the extent of recorded history) were hardly different than humans today, Socrates was a man. The evolutionary changes that led to modern species have taken hundreds of millions of years not a few thousand.

And can mice grow wings? Yes! what do you think bats are? … (hint fledermaus is the german word for bat). You may ask, what is the use of half a wing? But the answer is - you can glide. Even today there exist animals at every stage of flight to just hopping off the ground, to gliding, to soaring over mountain tops.

The evolution of birds (through dinosaurs according to modern theory) didn't happen overnight.
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January 5th, 2014, 21:44
Originally Posted by Roq View Post
Speciation is actually a very simple concept:

At the most basic level it is going to occur whenever two animals, formerly of the same species, can't or don't produce viable offspring. A common reason for this (allopatric speciation) is when two populations of the same species get geographically separated, so that members of each gene pool start to vary independently. Then if individuals later meet each other they can't (or don't) have offspring since they've diverged in some way - that can be as simple as size differences (imagine a dachshund trying to mate with a great dane) or even that individuals from the different populations just don't "fancy" each other any more (so they don't compete in each other's sexual selection market). That then isolates the two gene pools so that they continue to vary independently.

And yes, the scientific literature is full of evidence for this type of speciation including actual observation of speciation in the laboratory. You just have to look for it and leave your preconceptions behind. There is no proof in science, just overwhelming evidence.
You keep on saying there is overwhelming evidence, still you have not shown us any, not a single trace, why?
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January 5th, 2014, 21:51
Originally Posted by Roq View Post
Can't let this basic misunderstanding of the physics pass. It's been refuted many times, of course, as have all the other absurd YEC claims (moon dust etc. etc.) you find on creationist sites.

The second law of thermodynamics does *not* say that all things degenerate. What it says is that the entropy (which you can loosely interpret as disorder) in an *isolated* system can never decrease. Animals (and all other forms of life) are not isolated systems, we eat food which gives us the energy to maintain our structural integrity. And the ultimate source of the energy that sustains life on this planet is, of course, the sun.

If you only go to lunatic fringe sites (such as answers in genesis) and look at conspiracy theories you are never going to understand anything about reality. Do you guys really want to live the rest of your lives in cloud cuckoo land?
You are already there, so lets meet at sloopy joe's
Our solar system is only a part of the isolated system: the Universe
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January 5th, 2014, 21:56
Originally Posted by TopCat View Post
Well, it is still not evidence for evolution.
I do not know of any good mutations.
They are always fatal in the long run since it never have been OBSERVED
anything else than loss of information
Firstly, most mutations are neutral, secondly there are more bad mutations than good mutations. But it's only the few beneficial mutations that get carried forward by the mechanism of natural selection.

I've already explained to you how information can be increased in the genome. The fact that you didn't understand is no surprise, given the educational level you have displayed in your posts.
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January 5th, 2014, 22:59
Originally Posted by TopCat View Post
You keep on saying there is overwhelming evidence, still you have not shown us any, not a single trace, why?
Pladio has already pointed you to a site that summarizes some of the evidence. If you want a more comprehensive treatment try: "Why Evolution is True" by Jerry Coyne or one of Richard Dawkins's simpler books, such as "The Greatest Show On Earth".

You can ask me questions here about any aspect of evolution you find confusing, but I'm not going to spoon feed you or write a wall of text.

And it's sort of ironic that you ask for evidence for evolution, which you can find in abundance using google (do you want instructions or wot?) when you can't provide one iota of evidence for the biblical story of creation from any source… cos there isn't any.
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January 5th, 2014, 23:04
Originally Posted by Roq View Post
But that's the problem! There, simply are not enough generations in 5k years for any substantial evolution to occur. Humans around 2k-3k years ago (the extent of recorded history) were hardly different than humans today, Socrates was a man. The evolutionary changes that led to modern species have taken hundreds of millions of years not a few thousand.

And can mice grow wings? Yes! what do you think bats are? … (hint fledermaus is the german word for bat). You may ask, what is the use of half a wing? But the answer is - you can glide. Even today there exist animals at every stage of flight to just hopping off the ground, to gliding, to soaring over mountain tops.

The evolution of birds (through dinosaurs according to modern theory) didn't happen overnight.
See so you cant see evolution in action right? So evolution is not really observable is it?
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January 5th, 2014, 23:13
Originally Posted by Damian View Post
See so you cant see evolution in action right? So evolution is not really observable is it?
Science doesn't require phenomena to be directly observable in the present, all it needs is that you are able to make observations that are repeatable by other scientists, so they can verify your results. The whole science of geology, for instance, is based on historical data, hidden in the structure of rocks - but that doesn't prevent them finding oil, does it? OTOH religion isn't very useful for that sort of thing.

So sorry, that argument is a big fail! In any case, it *is* possible to observe evolution in species that have a very short generation time, such as bacteria and fruit flies. And indeed evolution has been detected in real time in such circumstances - not least in how bacteria become resistant to antibiotics.
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January 5th, 2014, 23:53
Originally Posted by Roq View Post
Science doesn't require phenomena to be directly observable in the present, all it needs is that you are able to make observations that are repeatable by other scientists, so they can verify your results. The whole science of geology, for instance, is based on historical data, hidden in the structure of rocks - but that doesn't prevent them finding oil, does it? OTOH religion isn't very useful for that sort of thing.

So sorry, that argument is a big fail! In any case, it *is* possible to observe evolution in species that have a very short generation time, such as bacteria and fruit flies. And indeed evolution has been detected in real time in such circumstances - not least in how bacteria become resistant to antibiotics.
Yep. That is called by creationists as microevolution. They say that the more complex a creature is the harder it is to evolve.
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January 6th, 2014, 00:06
Originally Posted by Roq View Post
No, microevolution is not restricted to low level life forms. And that isn't how most creationists use the term either. But many of them, like yourself evidently, don't understand their own terminology and their concepts aren't properly defined anyway.

In fact, microevolution refers to small changes in allele frequency, which is the basis of all evolution and it applies equally over the whole natural world. The mistake creationists make is to try to separate microevolution from macroevolution, whereas in fact macroevolution is just the result of a bunch of microevolutionary changes.
Damian … See bold
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January 6th, 2014, 00:15
Originally Posted by Damian View Post
Yep. That is called by creationists as microevolution. They say that the more complex a creature is the harder it is to evolve.
Macroevolution is just lots of microevolution (as I said before). And screw it if creationists want to misuse those terms to support their blind faith based beliefs:

Creationists are shocked by the fact that human beings and other apes have a common ancestor, because it detracts from their feeling of being special and gives them a space to insert their deity. That is their motive for trying to limit evolution to only small changes. Because otherwise they'd have to admit that humans evolved too. However, the evidence points to no such limitations…

If you want to admit the possibility of evolution, as you are now doing, but restrict it within some bounds, then it is you who needs to provide evidence: What is this gate that stops species evolving beyond a certain point? No such mechanism has been found in nature by anyone and given the nature of mutations, it's very hard to see how such a thing is even possible.

Of course it takes a longer time to go from a simple species to a more complex one, what would you expect? But I've already outlined the way genomes can gain information in this thread. Not only that but we have an amazing record of how the whole process has unwound, not only in the fossil record, but in the structure of our genes and from embryology. To deny all this is pure wishful thinking.

The thing about science is that it acts like a set of building blocks. In the case of evolution and the age of the earth those building blocks are piled so high that these theories are as factual as anything we know or can know about the universe.
Last edited by Roq; January 6th, 2014 at 00:39.
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