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RPGWatch Forums » General Forums » Politics, Religion & other Controversies » Pope Francis describes ‘ideological Christians’ as a ‘serious illness’

Default Pope Francis describes ‘ideological Christians’ as a ‘serious illness’

November 14th, 2013, 11:21
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
So, what you're saying is that it's commonly accepted between all Christians that God dictated exactly what was to be written?
Definitely no "dictated" as much as "guided". Like the Gospels, different apostles "saw different things" and were "guided" to write different things.
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November 14th, 2013, 11:24
Originally Posted by Damian View Post
Definitely no "dictated" as much as "guided". Like the Gospels, different apostles "saw different things" and were "guided" to write different things.
I'm confused. If they were merely guided - then how can it be infallible? Are human beings infallible?
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November 14th, 2013, 11:35
Say you saw something, you wrote what you saw. That might be missing important bits right? What if God made you see the most important bits and let you write about other bits too? What if God also made sure you dont write stuff that is "wrong" too. Would that be infallible?
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November 14th, 2013, 11:37
Originally Posted by Damian View Post
Say you saw something, you wrote what you saw. That might be missing important bits right? What if God made you see the most important bits and let you write about other bits too? What if God also made sure you dont write stuff that is "wrong" too. Would that be infallible?
That would be dictation.
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November 14th, 2013, 11:39
It would? I think you and me have different ideas as to what dictation is. But if that is the case it is dictation.
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November 14th, 2013, 11:46
Originally Posted by Damian View Post
It would? I think you and me have different ideas as to what dictation is. But if that is the case it is dictation.
It's not my idea - it's the definition of dictation to dictate what is to be written and if something is "corrected" when it's "wrong", then what else would you call it?

In any case, I think I've heard enough
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November 14th, 2013, 11:51
Well when i did dictation at school i had to write sentences exactly as been said with out spelling mistake.
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November 14th, 2013, 11:56
Ok, so God made sure everything in the Bible is correct - but he didn't actually dictate anything. So, human beings wrote something other than what God actually "preached" as well as what he DID preach (but apparently didn't dictate in any way) - but even that is part of God's message, right? Because the Bible is supposed to be the word of God.

So, they wrote something that God didn't talk about - but it's still God speaking?

Unfortunately, what you're saying makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Again, I think I've heard enough.
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November 14th, 2013, 12:03
So would the adding of a name of a person instead of just "this person" make a difference?
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November 14th, 2013, 12:08
Originally Posted by Damian View Post
So would the adding of a name of a person instead of just "this person" make a difference?
I don't understand the question.
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November 14th, 2013, 12:14
If God showed someone a vision, would identifying the vision instead of descibring the vision make a big difference in what you wrote?

I guess this is where the issue of the 4 gospels also comes in. Some people believe these 4 verses are the same thing others dont. I believe they are the same all inspired by God.

Matthew 26:6-13
While Jesus was in Bethany in the home of Simon the Leper, 7 a woman came to him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, which she poured on his head as he was reclining at the table. When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. “Why this waste?” they asked. 9 “This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor. Aware of this, Jesus said to them, “Why are you bothering this woman? She has done a beautiful thing to me. 11 The poor you will always have with you,[a] but you will not always have me. When she poured this perfume on my body, she did it to prepare me for burial. Truly I tell you, wherever this gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her.
Mark 14:3-9
While he was in Bethany, reclining at the table in the home of Simon the Leper, a woman came with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, made of pure nard. She broke the jar and poured the perfume on his head. Some of those present were saying indignantly to one another, “Why this waste of perfume? It could have been sold for more than a year’s wages[a] and the money given to the poor.” And they rebuked her harshly. “Leave her alone,” said Jesus. “Why are you bothering her? She has done a beautiful thing to me. The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them any time you want. But you will not always have me. 8 She did what she could. She poured perfume on my body beforehand to prepare for my burial. Truly I tell you, wherever the gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her.”
Luke 7:36-50
When one of the Pharisees invited Jesus to have dinner with him, he went to the Pharisee’s house and reclined at the table. A woman in that town who lived a sinful life learned that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee’s house, so she came there with an alabaster jar of perfume. As she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them. When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, “If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him and what kind of woman she is—that she is a sinner.” Jesus answered him, “Simon, I have something to tell you.” “Tell me, teacher,” he said. “Two people owed money to a certain moneylender. One owed him five hundred denarii,[a] and the other fifty. Neither of them had the money to pay him back, so he forgave the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?” Simon replied, “I suppose the one who had the bigger debt forgiven.” “You have judged correctly,” Jesus said. Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—as her great love has shown. But whoever has been forgiven little loves little.” Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.” The other guests began to say among themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?” Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
John 12:1-8
Six days before the Passover, Jesus came to Bethany, where Lazarus lived, whom Jesus had raised from the dead. Here a dinner was given in Jesus’ honor. Martha served, while Lazarus was among those reclining at the table with him. Then Mary took about a pint of pure nard, an expensive perfume; she poured it on Jesus’ feet and wiped his feet with her hair. And the house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume. But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, “Why wasn’t this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year’s wages.” He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it. “Leave her alone,” Jesus replied. “It was intended that she should save this perfume for the day of my burial. You will always have the poor among you, but you will not always have me.”
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November 14th, 2013, 12:19
Actually reading that again makes me think that Lukes account is a different event.
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November 14th, 2013, 12:24
Originally Posted by Damian View Post
If God showed someone a vision, would identifying the vision instead of descibring the vision make a big difference in what you wrote?

I guess this is where the issue of the 4 gospels also comes in. Some people believe these 4 verses are the same thing others dont. I believe they are the same all inspired by God.
I don't see how that relates to my point.

We're talking about human beings writing a book - and to what extent God was involved in the actual writing.

You're saying that he wasn't dictating anything, but he made sure that what was said was correct and in perfect accordance with "the vision" - and you're saying he allowed human beings to write about other things than those in "the vision" - and that he made sure those things were correct as well.

That's what I'm calling dictation or certainly as close to dictation as you can get without actually dictating.

For the purposes of my point, it makes no difference. Man was a redundant layer between God and the book if what you're saying is true - and as such, I don't understand why God didn't just give the vision to everyone or wrote the book himself.

But there are many things I don't understand, so that's ok
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November 14th, 2013, 12:38
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
I don't see how that relates to my point.

We're talking about human beings writing a book - and to what extent God was involved in the actual writing.

You're saying that he wasn't dictating anything, but he made sure that what was said was correct and in perfect accordance with "the vision" - and you're saying he allowed human beings to write about other things than those in "the vision" - and that he made sure those things were correct as well.

That's what I'm calling dictation or certainly as close to dictation as you can get without actually dictating.

For the purposes of my point, it makes no difference. Man was a redundant layer between God and the book if what you're saying is true - and as such, I don't understand why God didn't just give the vision to everyone or wrote the book himself.

But there are many things I don't understand, so that's ok
Well God tried that once and Moses broke those tablets.
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November 14th, 2013, 12:39
Originally Posted by Damian View Post
Well God tried that once and Moses broke those tablets.
So even God is fallible
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November 14th, 2013, 12:45
In the words of Homer Simpson:
Could God microwave a burrito so hot that not even He could eat it?
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November 14th, 2013, 12:46
In that case, he simply wouldn't be hungry at the time
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November 14th, 2013, 15:53
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
So even God is fallible
Oy, you've done it now.

I believe the angle Damian was looking for is one of pre- and post-editorial rather than dictation. So, much like a movie where an actor adlibs and goes off script, God blocked out the scene (pre-editorial) and has the option to do the shot over if he's unhappy with the end result (post-editorial). It's a nice way to tap dance the whole human error problem without jeopardizing God's status as infallible.

After all, they've had 2000 years to figure out ways to "patch up the dam" to deal with uncomfortable questions from heretics like you.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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November 14th, 2013, 21:15
But fundamentally, man wrote the Bible. Not God. As such it is fallible.
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November 14th, 2013, 21:19
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
But fundamentally, man wrote the Bible. Not God. As such it is fallible.
And speaking with my friend the Rabbi about how certain words and phrases are subject to massive arguments over exact translation through the years … makes it absolutely laughable when some bible-thumper tries to use 'but the bible SAYS …' as if the English words in his new-fangled Bible are some exact transcription of what everyone who has read through the ages has understood …

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