|
Your continuous donations keep RPGWatch running!
RPGWatch Forums » Comments » News Comments » Drakensang - Gamestar Summary @ Drakensang.info

Default Drakensang - Gamestar Summary @ Drakensang.info

July 20th, 2007, 06:03
Have to agree with Brother None…we've done "official" (whatever that really means) Legend diaries, Broken hourglass and more back at RPGDot.

-= RPGWatch =-
Dhruin is offline

Dhruin

Dhruin's Avatar
SasqWatch
Super Moderator
RPGWatch Team

#21

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 11,967

Default 

July 20th, 2007, 07:40
The Legend diaries will continue when I have more time and when Jaz is available to do the translations again.
Gorath is offline

Gorath

Gorath's Avatar
Prime Evil
RPGWatch Team

#22

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,846

Default 

July 22nd, 2007, 07:08
Let me stress in some more detail why an authentic recreation of the 4th edition TDE-Character-Creation rules would not have been possible and would not have made sense in a CRPG.
I'm now listing some of the "Talents" my P&P character, a Hesinde-priest (godess of knowledge, magic and arts), has, that would be really hard if not impossible to implement. Especially if you consider implementing meaningful situations in which to use them:
Flying (on a flying carpet, a dragon etc.), Self-Control (psychic resistance against pain, temper, etc.), Hiding, Etiquette, Fishing, Weatherforecast, farming, woodcraft, leathercraft, cooking, 10 different languages and 6 writing-systems on different skill levels

Now some knowledge-talents that would be totally useless in a CRPG, unless maybe you consider hiring arround 100 writers just to write the dialogue of the game:
Anatomy, Boardgames, Geography, Historical knowledge, Theological knowledge, smelting knowledge (!), Magical knowledge, Mechanics, Philosophy, calculating, judical knowledge (!), Legends, language science (!), statecraft (!).

Let me now list some magical abilities (spells and rituals) that would be hard or impossible to implement (especially if you consider all the details contained in the detailed descriptions):
Abvenum (purify food, also of must)
Aerofugo (creates a vacuum)
Aerogelo (make somebody real breathless)
(Aufgeblasen) = Inflated and lifted (somebodies cheeks begin to fill with air, until he involuntarily flies away, without any other damage)
Aureolus (makes something shine with a golden blaze)
(Auge) Eye of the Limbus (let's the magician travel to a strange void between the different "spheres", different levels of cosmos)
Auris Nasis Occulus (create small, unsophisticated illusions)

As you can see I am just done with the Letter A… (they'ss implement arround 40 of a total of 200 spells. and of these every spell does something genuinly different))

Another important point is that (in 4th Edition P&P TDE) you don't choose a "dwarve", "warrior" or a "thorwalian" anymore as your class, but you choose a set of race, culture and professian. So you might be a dwarven warrior, that has gown up in Thorwal (which is of course extremely unlikely).
In total there are 15 races, 46 cultures with arround 100-150 special variants, and of course ca. 75 professions with arround, hmm, maybe 300 variants and under-classes, which makes a total of arround 500 thousand combinations, although of course many are highly unlikely if not impossible.
There are arround 30 mage-academies, 30 warrior academies, different academiies for soldiers, arround 25 different priests, maybe 10 kinds of shamans, all with their own kinds of rituals….

the list goes on.
ulixes is offline

ulixes

Watcher

#23

Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 59

Default 

July 22nd, 2007, 15:17
Character-Creation rules would not have been possible and would not have made sense in a CRPG.
I disagree 100%.

I'm now listing some of the "Talents" my P&P character, a Hesinde-priest (godess of knowledge, magic and arts), has, that would be really hard if not impossible to implement. Especially if you consider implementing meaningful situations in which to use them:
Flying (on a flying carpet, a dragon etc.), Self-Control (psychic resistance against pain, temper, etc.), Hiding, Etiquette, Fishing, Weatherforecast, farming, woodcraft, leathercraft, cooking, 10 different languages and 6 writing-systems on different skill levels
Don't include the talents that don't apply to the game. Like they didn't.

Now some knowledge-talents that would be totally useless in a CRPG, unless maybe you consider hiring arround 100 writers just to write the dialogue of the game:
Anatomy, Boardgames, Geography, Historical knowledge, Theological knowledge, smelting knowledge (!), Magical knowledge, Mechanics, Philosophy, calculating, judical knowledge (!), Legends, language science (!), statecraft (!).
Don't include the ones that don't fit or have an application in the game, like they didn't.

Let me now list some magical abilities (spells and rituals) that would be hard or impossible to implement (especially if you consider all the details contained in the detailed descriptions):
Abvenum (purify food, also of must)
Aerofugo (creates a vacuum)
Aerogelo (make somebody real breathless)
(Aufgeblasen) = Inflated and lifted (somebodies cheeks begin to fill with air, until he involuntarily flies away, without any other damage)
Aureolus (makes something shine with a golden blaze)
(Auge) Eye of the Limbus (let's the magician travel to a strange void between the different "spheres", different levels of cosmos)
Auris Nasis Occulus (create small, unsophisticated illusions)

As you can see I am just done with the Letter A… (they'ss implement arround 40 of a total of 200 spells. and of these every spell does something genuinly different))
They didn't include them, right?

Another important point is that (in 4th Edition P&P TDE) you don't choose a "dwarve", "warrior" or a "thorwalian" anymore as your class, but you choose a set of race, culture and professian. So you might be a dwarven warrior, that has gown up in Thorwal (which is of course extremely unlikely).
In total there are 15 races, 46 cultures with arround 100-150 special variants, and of course ca. 75 professions with arround, hmm, maybe 300 variants and under-classes, which makes a total of arround 500 thousand combinations, although of course many are highly unlikely if not impossible.
There are arround 30 mage-academies, 30 warrior academies, different academiies for soldiers, arround 25 different priests, maybe 10 kinds of shamans, all with their own kinds of rituals….

the list goes on.
Not including character creation would make sense if nothing was implemented. But they did implement many talents. They did implement many archetypes, races, and cultures. What is the problem with letting me choose the ones that are implimented so I can create my own character? There is zero reason not to, unless they want my character to be a certain way because the story revolves around the cut-scenes and me making my own character wouldn't make sense. Then we are left with an adventure game and not a role-playing game, right?

Its not like every D&D game didn't have to cut skills or class abilities that didn't translate into the game they were making. Or every other rpg.

I bought TDE 4th edition core book just to see if what this nonsensicle jibber-jabber about being able to create my own character had any bases in reality, and it doesn't at all. It is 100% possible.

So answer this. There are races, cultures, archetypes, spells, gifts, advantages, disadvantages, etc, in the the game. Why can't I create the character I want with what has been included?

And also, mega-traveller had the same problem, but not just included character creation, but also included all the extra skills, etc, that did not have a game application just so the people who played pnp traveller could have a quicker and better way to create characters and GM's could easily create npcs. If creating a character is such a pain in TDE (I didn't think so, I had a ball creating a couple just to try out the point buy system and get a feel for all the choices), and the people creating the game are TDE fans, and they want TDE fans to buy it, why not give them this extra incentive since they have to do a lot of the work anyways?

Again, anyone that says character creation is just not feasible for Drakensang is just plain wrong, crazy, lying, or gullible.
roqua is offline

roqua

roqua's Avatar
Sentinel

#24

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 474

Default 

July 22nd, 2007, 17:21
Implementing a character-creation system just with whats already implemented would propably mean that they'd have to reinvent (and more importantly: rebalance) the creation system completely.
You can't have (Intelligence x Intuition) Talent-generating-points if you've only got half of the talents from P&P.
But I guess the more (most) important reason for 27 Archetypes is that the writing team has an easier job this way in tayloring the dialogue and plot arround the player-character.

And 27 choices is actually a lot, especially considering that what you do with your exp (which feats, talents etc. you raise) is totally up to you (of course you can only invest in those things that are in the game).
Think about it, it has also been said before: NWN2 had arround that number of classes, the "Realms of Arkania"-series probably had less, cannot find out right now, but I guess.
And you can't forget that you'll be able to let NPCs join your party (which then become PCs -> like BG) and that you only choose the class for one (the first, your) character. It's possible (and I'm expecting it) that of the NPCs that might join you there'll be many that don't fit in the 27 Archetypes-scheme, but are totally unique (maybe an Orkish marauder or something exotic like that).
ulixes is offline

ulixes

Watcher

#25

Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 59

Default 

July 22nd, 2007, 17:38
They already had to work out some kind of rebalance to create their own characters with the limited amount of skills, etc included. I don't see a problem.

The issue isn't that it can't be done, or that it isn't feasible, because it sure can be done and is more than feasible. They don't want to, for one reason or another, and those reasons have yet to be admited to by the devs (at least not in English or translated to English). I know what the reasons are probably, but they won't be admitted to from the devs, because what I said about the rhetoric is 100% true (from the other post). We'll keep getting lies as reasons, or they ,ight hint at the truth but also include a bunch of lies and nonsense as a smoke screen to delude and cloud the issue.

Its sad that now I have zero big budget games to look forward to. I just cannot accept not being able to create at least one character. Its a slap in the face to anyone who considers themselves a rpg fan. What the hell is wrong with germany and Character Creation? Why do germans hate it in what they call crpgs, but their most popular rpg has a beautiful and intricate system for it? Weird-o's.
roqua is offline

roqua

roqua's Avatar
Sentinel

#26

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 474

Default 

July 22nd, 2007, 19:14
Originally Posted by roqua View Post
Why do germans hate it in what they call crpgs, but their most popular rpg has a beautiful and intricate system for it? Weird-o's.
Well, the ROA games HAD a special character creation system.

I must defend the malkers of Drakensang a bit here : The system is imho simply too complex.

In my eyes, this is the problem, but I'm sure they woiuldn't do a game for the much simplier system of the third edition (which I would instantly buy).

There are still discussions going on in the official forums, bit the decision seems to be to simplify everything for a larger audience.

Although this is bitter for the hardcore-DSA-gamer (DSA = Das Schwarze Auge), there is a little bit of hope in it, although only a spark : That a game like Drakensang might get the attention of a larger audience - and i mean internationally.

Those who are used to the NWN character creation systems might turn away, though. This is a game with the fire, I believe.


This game is intended NOT for harcore C-RPG gamers like me. To me, that's sad, but I must accept this decision, because everyone believes that games for hardcore C-RPG gamers won't sell.
What sells instead are simplified games like DS, Sacred, Blizzard's games …
Alrik Fassbauer is offline

Alrik Fassbauer

Alrik Fassbauer's Avatar
TL;DR

#27

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Old Europe
Posts: 15,987

Default 

July 22nd, 2007, 19:35
It most certianly is not too complex to add-in and program and provide as an option into the game. That way, the bigger audience will have the premade characters and I can have my own. The reason goes beyond that I'm sure, and they won't admit in reality to why.

This game is intended NOT for harcore C-RPG gamers like me. To me, that's sad, but I must accept this decision, because everyone believes that games for hardcore C-RPG gamers won't sell.
What sells instead are simplified games like DS, Sacred, Blizzard's games …
Then stick with me and don't buy it. Speak with your wallet. Speak out and spread the word. Let them know this is unacceptible and the only chance they have of you buying the game is to add traditional crpg options like character creation. Let them loose all the "hard-core" rpg and crpg fans, like you and me. They win and further dumb down this rediculously dumbed down genre if we buy it. If enough of us have the smarts to speak with our wallets, and that hurts their bottom line enough, I gaurantee you character creation will somehow not be too complex to add into Drakensang 2 (if enough casual adventure game fans buy it to justify making a 2).
roqua is offline

roqua

roqua's Avatar
Sentinel

#28

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 474

Default 

July 22nd, 2007, 19:53
Well, the problem right now is that I can't buy it because my PC is simply too old (from 1999). I would first have to upgrade it, for which I haven't got the money yet.

But here in Germany things are a bit different.

Imagine that the last C-RPG for (A)D&D was done 1996, since then there had ben NO games AT ALL - not to cound two failed attempts.
Can you imagine how much the people were crying for a new game in the course of time, huw "hungry" they were and "thirsty" ansd starving actually ? And how much frustrated they were about two failed attempts tht will never see the light (of which one was turned into an action-RPG) ?

Then you might imagine how the German following of Drakensang is feeling about the game. I mean the majority.


The expectations were high. VERY high. EVERYONE in the forums expected the same game like the ROA games - and I mean the micromanagement, especially.

But the devs didn't want to include micromanagement and furthermore not the high level of detail "we" fans arte used from the original ROA games.

Instead, they have always stated they wanted to make an Baldur's Gate in 3D" game. Which has stirred the old ROA fans quite a lot.

As it stands now, as I understand and expect it, it will be nowhere near to the imcreadibly high level of the ROA games. It will be a nice, smooth C-RPG, but it will be a good meal, and for some even fast food, but to me it won't be satisfying, because I'd rather want that high level of details again.


But - be honest to yourself : Have you EVER seen a game in the RECENT times that had SUCH a high level of micromanagement and details like the ROA games had ?

This sort of game is definitively dying out, which is the reason why I'm feeling I might withdraw from C-RPGs in general more and more.

What I want is an intellectual challenge, what I get is fast food. Nowadays.


It's like going into an art museum. Really *good* art museums aren't actually crowded with people …
Alrik Fassbauer is offline

Alrik Fassbauer

Alrik Fassbauer's Avatar
TL;DR

#29

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Old Europe
Posts: 15,987

Default 

July 22nd, 2007, 21:24
And if they add character creation the players who want a strong story go ballistic because more possible starting characters means less focused story.
Gorath is offline

Gorath

Gorath's Avatar
Prime Evil
RPGWatch Team

#30

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,846

Default 

July 22nd, 2007, 22:10
Well, they could have used "recommended" Charas, and for people who want to roleplay their own Character give the possibility to create one from scratch. I wouldn't mind if the story doesen't fit exactly to my own Chara.

The more I hear about this game, the less I'm interested in it (the same applies to Dragon Age…).

The Germans are a cruel race. Their operas last for six hours and they have no word for "fluffy".

Captain Blackadder
Fenris is offline

Fenris

Fenris's Avatar
Proto-Nerd

#31

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Franconia
Posts: 442

Default 

July 22nd, 2007, 22:44
Originally Posted by Gorath View Post
And if they add character creation the players who want a strong story go ballistic because more possible starting characters means less focused story.
For those cinematic cut-scenes right? For those "rpg" fans who want to play a movie?
roqua is offline

roqua

roqua's Avatar
Sentinel

#32

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 474

Default 

July 22nd, 2007, 23:55
You are, of course, right that it all could be done, Roqua. With unlimited time and an unlimited budget and if we removed this annoying little word called "if" from the dictionary that is preceding this very sentence .

You know, what could be done even is that you learn C++ and program your own TDE game. Hell, even world hunger could theoretically be solved. It's just a simple matter of resource allocation and distribution. Given enough resources (human and material) and some time, world hunger could be fixed within a couple of years probably.
But in reality no one is doing crap because of budget limitations and because of all the political bullshit that goes along with it.
Same with game development and in this case Drakensang. Radon Labs did "admit" to it, too. They already said it a few times that they got to draw the line somewhere and streamline stuff because of time and budget limitations.

For example, given the typical limitations, it's just not feasible to create 200+ different animations and effects for every single spell that the TDE source material has to offer. Naturally, Radon have got to make a selection of spells that they want players to be able to use in the game and then limit their work efforts to that selection.

But who am I telling that? You know all that all too well, Roqua. You're just in this stubborn mood once again where you won't deviate one inch from your position since you've sunk your teeth so deep into it that you just can't let go .
Moriendor is offline

Moriendor

Moriendor's Avatar
Spielkind

#33

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Schland
Posts: 1,916

Default 

July 23rd, 2007, 00:58
Saying that character creation, which boils down to a bunch of +'s and -'s, can't be put in because of anything other than a business decision is being stupid. I don't remember Radon Labs or anyone addressing this particular issue truthfully; adult to adult. But if you say they did I'll believe you (well, I'll actually believe you if you can link to it. And don't try that old trickeroo where you link to something in German and say it says something it doesn't. That might have worked on me before, but now Alrik, a fellow defender of all that is good and rightous, is here and immune to that old gag).

Where did this rumor that I'm stubborn come from?
roqua is offline

roqua

roqua's Avatar
Sentinel

#34

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 474

Default 

July 23rd, 2007, 02:41
Originally Posted by roqua View Post
For those cinematic cut-scenes right? For those "rpg" fans who want to play a movie?
For those who want to have a strong story instead of a boring medieval world simulator like Morrowind. Isnīt it logical that itīs much easier to write a great story about one specific hero instead of 2^n different possible starting characters? Open endedness is fine for me, but only as far as it doesnīt get in the way of the story.
Gorath is offline

Gorath

Gorath's Avatar
Prime Evil
RPGWatch Team

#35

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,846

Default 

July 23rd, 2007, 02:50
Of course it is also a bussiness decision, if you implement a feature only a small fracture of the users in going to use, then your putting efford into the wrong features. Its as easy as that.
And I don't really understand why you can't appreciate the notion, that another reason is making the work of the authors easier, since they allways stress what a story-driven game this is gonna be (I believe them). Especially NPC reactions are so much easier to predict, if you only have 27 possible constellations, not thousands.

But why don't you just go ahead and ask your question in the official English forums, I'm sure you'll get an answer from Radon Labs (sooner or rather later).

What I forgot, of course, is how much easier it is to provide an initial story for your character, how and why he came to Ferdok, etc. (which is gonna be especially interesting for the Tulamidyan and Thorwalian archetypes). To provide this kind of detailed backstory in a consistent and coherent manner is completely impossible if you've got a real TDE-Editor .
You can also stress the uniqueness of the different archetypes in the course of the adventure way better if you know what you're dealing with.

P.S. I hope you can at one stage join up with some kind of priest (a Phex or Rondra-priest would be awesome!)
P.P.S. I was very pleasently suprised to see that they'll include alchemy and even crafting (to which extent, of course, is unknown, but you'll be able to forge your own weapons and armor).
P.P.P.S. And since I've read somebody telling the opposite somewhere: there is definetly gonna be an implementaton of hit-zones! Although you don't seem to be able to choose which bodypart to hit.
P.P.P.P.S. If you want to roleplay play P&P, CRPGs are not suited for real roleplaying, thats why I don't expect them to provide it (I also have nothing against trying, of course)

And as you can see here they were actually at one stage thinking about implementing "real" character generation.
Last edited by ulixes; July 23rd, 2007 at 03:19.
ulixes is offline

ulixes

Watcher

#36

Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 59

Default 

July 23rd, 2007, 03:52
Originally Posted by Gorath View Post
For those who want to have a strong story instead of a boring medieval world simulator like Morrowind. Isnīt it logical that itīs much easier to write a great story about one specific hero instead of 2^n different possible starting characters? Open endedness is fine for me, but only as far as it doesnīt get in the way of the story.
PST had character creation. The Kotors had character creation. At the very least let me chose the abilities of the character that I will be forced on me. If I can chose the archetype, why can't I choose the advantages/gifts/etc/ect of the character I am forced to play in the adventure game? How would that possibly hurt or effect the story of the adventure game?
roqua is offline

roqua

roqua's Avatar
Sentinel

#37

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 474

Default 

July 23rd, 2007, 04:03
Of course it is also a bussiness decision, if you implement a feature only a small fracture of the users in going to use, then your putting efford into the wrong features. Its as easy as that.
Only a fraction of the players of this game like rpgs? What the hell kind of game is this?

Of course it is also a bussiness decision, if you implement a feature only a small fracture of the users in going to use, then your putting efford into the wrong features. Its as easy as that.
And I don't really understand why you can't appreciate the notion, that another reason is making the work of the authors easier, since they allways stress what a story-driven game this is gonna be (I believe them). Especially NPC reactions are so much easier to predict, if you only have 27 possible constellations, not thousands.
27 choses that have zero effect on the story. See my post above. It wouldn't hurt the writers of this adventure game at all.

But why don't you just go ahead and ask your question in the official English forums, I'm sure you'll get an answer from Radon Labs (sooner or rather later).
Because I only post in rpg game forums.

What I forgot, of course, is how much easier it is to provide an initial story for your character, how and why he came to Ferdok, etc. (which is gonna be especially interesting for the Tulamidyan and Thorwalian archetypes). To provide this kind of detailed backstory in a consistent and coherent manner is completely impossible if you've got a real TDE-Editor .
You can also stress the uniqueness of the different archetypes in the course of the adventure way better if you know what you're dealing with.
Oh yeah? If archetype is the big choice, why can't I pick lesser choices such as everything else? Whats the only other choices that could impact the story besides archetypes? Race and Culture? Those seem to be covered, so why not let me create my character. It might be a neat feature to add into an adventure game.

P.P.P.P.S. If you want to roleplay play P&P, CRPGs are not suited for real roleplaying, thats why I don't expect them to provide it (I also have nothing against trying, of course)
You could reasonably and traditionally expect them to provide character creation though, right?

And as you can see here they were actually at one stage thinking about implementing "real" character generation.
That link gives me a 404 error, but I'm interested in reading it.
roqua is offline

roqua

roqua's Avatar
Sentinel

#38

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 474

Default 

July 23rd, 2007, 04:50
First of all, you seem to have some misconceptions about the Archetyp-Concept of Drakensang.
You can just choose an archetype and start the adventure.
You can also choose the "Expert-Mode", then choose an Archetype (which only consists of the modifiers of race/culture/profession, then spend your normal 110 GP and finally spend your (Cleverness + Intuition) x 20 Talent-GP.
So in the end the only thing that is (P&P rulewise) forced on you is the race/culture/profession combination, nothing else.
Most of this is my interpretation, but there is definetly gonna be some kind of (talents/attributes) customization at the start of the game, apart from choosing the r/c/p combination.

The link is giving me a 404 right now, too. just try again later/tomorrow.
And of course the picture linked is not very sophisticated, seems to be from very very early development stages.
ulixes is offline

ulixes

Watcher

#39

Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 59

Default 

July 23rd, 2007, 12:21
Originally Posted by ulixes View Post
And as you can see here they were actually at one stage thinking about implementing "real" character generation.
So they thought about it and decided not to include it… I guess even Bethesda decided somewhere in the development to include scaled leveling into Oblivion…

The Germans are a cruel race. Their operas last for six hours and they have no word for "fluffy".

Captain Blackadder
Fenris is offline

Fenris

Fenris's Avatar
Proto-Nerd

#40

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Franconia
Posts: 442
RPGWatch Forums » Comments » News Comments » Drakensang - Gamestar Summary @ Drakensang.info
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT +2. The time now is 21:14.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright by RPGWatch