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July 20th, 2007, 22:13
Mass effect looks amazing but I cant buy it because there is no room here for a big noisy console like the 360. Not to mention all the new heat I might need a new expensive air conditioning for all my gear. I only bought ps2 because the slim version is so small its the size of a dvd-case and its not that noisy either.
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July 20th, 2007, 22:32
Originally Posted by PatrickWeekes View Post

I don't believe that rpgs have a core goal, just an infinite number of possible goals… just like every other genre. Your attempt to define a core goal and then categorically state that some of the most popular games in the field are not RPGs because they don't meet that core goal is like declaring that all coins are nickels, and that dimes, by dint of being very bad nickels, are not coins.
Not true. Whatís the core goal of a comedy? All coins are currency, and currency has a core goal; a core reason it was created. While coins can have a value due to the scarcity or value of the metal it contains, paper money (which, like coins) also comes in different denominations, and was created for the same reason, has the same core goal. I could say that goal was to look neat-o, but it isnít.

Iíve never once said Kotor wasnít a rpg. And I donít know enough Mass Effect to care, I found out it was 360 exclusive, and have no way to play it, so I never bothered to learn anything about it. My comment has been about making gameís called rpgs more cinematic, which means related to a movie.

You can believe the goal of an rpg is whatever you want. You can believe all number of things. You can state that a penis and a vagina are the same thing and no one could stop you, but it doesnít mean youíll be right. Rpgs were created for a reason, to provide an experience different than watching a movie or reading a book, and itís your God given right as a Canadian to ignore this or any other fact you so choose. But ignoring or disagreeing with a fact never stopped one from being one. So weíll have to agree that I believe in facts and you donít, and leave it at that.

I donít care about story so much, and Kotor and Jade Empire (I own a regular x-box) are a couple of a very small handful of games Iíve beaten in the last 7 years. Am I a huge Bioware fan? No? Is it due to the rpgness of their games? No. My biggest complaint against bioware is my biggest complaint against every other developer and is something that will never change, and thatís that the activity I spend 90% of the game time doing is way too ridiculously easy and boring. 100% of the challenge of games has been removed.

Why is combat so ridiculously easy? I think itís because that is what sells. Is that Biowareís fault? No. The people that like the games I do tend to be pirates. Little fat NA kids actually buy games. Some guy from one of the soviet satellite countries was telling me that he could pirate console games easier than pc games. My best friend has no idea what a rpg is or what it stands for, but he bought a final fantasy game, Oblivion and Jade Empire. He doesnít want to think or be challenged; he loves endless hordes of easy enemies. And he will never figure out how to pirate a game. He actually buys them. Developers and publishers would be retarded to make a game that would be quite popular with pirates, and not popular with people that actually pay money for games. Pirates have no idea how much theyíve hurt this genre.

I love plenty of games that others consider rpgs that I know arenít, such as Bloodlines, Betrayal at Krondor, Jagged Alliance, X-com, etc. I love them. I am fine with a game I love not being a rpg. And Iím fine with only rpgs being rpgs.

So Iíll never be a big fan of Biowareís games, and its mainly due to the market and not biowareís fault at all. But, I can hold a grudge against bioware for not trying anything new. Bioware could buy and operate a small game label that tries to be inventive and actually try and bring the rpg experience to the computer. I work in finance, I will never hold a grudge against a company that makes smart business decisions. But that is no excuse for the huge egoís of big dev studios to not be inventive and try and really make a great game, instead of trying to make a blockbuster game with a huge budget every time. Hire Cain, Boyarsky, and Anderson to be inventive and focus on generating economic profit on a small scale with small budget, focused, real rpgs that donít have to please 80 billion people by not really satisfying any of them completely, and use their leeway of lower risk to broaden the market and strengthen the Bioware brand as a rpg developer. Use economies of scale to have them reuse the assets the big games used, and benefit by economies of scope in using the small dev teams as a proving grounds and idea generators. Make a big budget game that I, and the non-pirate people like me, can get excited about and gush all over.

Until then I wonít have a game to play, and will continue to be bitter and jaded because Bioware doesnít care about me, and that will force me to post nonsense in Bioware threads in hopes of getting my way. And if I got my way Iíd be playing a game right now and you wouldnít have to waste your time talking to someone you donít like, like me. Its win-win for everyone.
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July 20th, 2007, 22:54
Originally Posted by roqua View Post
Not true. Whatís the core goal of a comedy? All coins are currency, and currency has a core goal; a core reason it was created. While coins can have a value due to the scarcity or value of the metal it contains, paper money (which, like coins) also comes in different denominations, and was created for the same reason, has the same core goal. I could say that goal was to look neat-o, but it isnít.
Right. Instead, you've taken the element of RPGs that you specifically like and declared that that's the core goal of all real RPGs — and thus, by common logic, anything that doesn't have that core goal isn't an RPG.

If you're going to declare that you acknowledge facts and I don't, please get said facts straight.

If you want to force a core goal onto RPGs, the only one that I'd accept is the same as all fiction anywhere — to entertain and/or educate. Maybe it does so by letting you create a character and bump around in a mostly storyless world (Oblivion). Maybe it does so by giving you a character with an existing backstory and letting you make decisions about how your character reacts to that backstory (KotOR, PS:T). Maybe it does something in-between.

It can and often does relate to getting the player to identify with the character he plays more closely than most plays or books expect viewers or readers to identify with the protagonists. There are countless ways to get that identification to happen, and it's by no means the one element that makes a game an RPG or not.

Iíve never once said Kotor wasnít a rpg. And I donít know enough Mass Effect to care, I found out it was 360 exclusive, and have no way to play it, so I never bothered to learn anything about it.
Good to hear you arguing from an informed perspective. Just so we're clear, you're arguing about what someone in a messageboard said about what someone at a gaming convention said about what someone at a gaming studio said? And when I, who have, you know, played the game in question, answer some concerns, you take your thirdhand assumptions and put them against my actual experience?

Yeah, I'll be getting back to work.

Until then I wonít have a game to play, and will continue to be bitter and jaded because Bioware doesnít care about me, and that will force me to post nonsense in Bioware threads in hopes of getting my way. And if I got my way Iíd be playing a game right now and you wouldnít have to waste your time talking to someone you donít like, like me. Its win-win for everyone.
Good luck with that.
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July 20th, 2007, 23:06
Originally Posted by BillSeurer View Post
Sorry, but previous attempts at that have failed. Darklands tried that and it was roundly dissed (even after it was aall fixedup) for NOT having a story. If you look at all the RPGs that people consider the best they all have strong stories. You can affect the details of the story but you are playing the game's story none-the-less.

Even with a "live" RPG if there is no story 99.44% of groups will flounder around a while and then stop showing up. I've seen this with many groups over the 30 years I've been playing and GMing RPGs.

I'm not saying remove the story. Look at every pnp rpg module ever made, they all contain a story. But, how the story goes from a to b is an open, blank book. Look at The Riddle of Steel. A game that doesn't work with modules because not even the GM knows what the story will be because in large it depends on what SPiritual Attributes the player's pick during character creation which create and drive the story. And the only way to improve the character is to use the spiritual attributes, which in turn means the role-playing of the game creates the adventure.
Last edited by roqua; July 20th, 2007 at 23:21.
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July 20th, 2007, 23:13
Originally Posted by roqua View Post
Why is combat so ridiculously easy? I think it’s because that is what sells. Is that Bioware’s fault? No. […]

He doesn’t want to think or be challenged; he loves endless hordes of easy enemies.
This is (sorry for dissecting these quotes so much) my very personal main point of criticism towards the whole RPG genre AS IT IS NOW.

This is pure action, no matter whether it has a story or not, and Dungeon Siege 1 sold quite well, I hear, although the SP part is pure railriading with lots of "metzeln", as we call it here in Germany.

This is imho what kids like : Action, action, and combat. No thinking required, please.

These are the games that SELL, and not the deep, almost philosophical games like PS:T.

So, we are - sorry to put it to that extreme point - so to say victims of a money-oriented games market : Games that generate most of the profits are most welcome and most supported.

Games that don't sell are the more complex, more deeper games - at least that's my personal impression - and they are not liked by the overall mass at all.


So, now what we get are "games for the masses".

But since I don't belong to the "mass-taste", so to say, I slowly withdraw.


What this industry really needs are are more adult oriented games specifically for a smaller audience - much like Prog Rock for a smaller audience as well.

Everyone knows the Genesis pop songs, and they sold inreadibly well,
but soon they are forgotten by the "casual listener".

The old eara of prog rock Genesis (the long songs, the complex songs, the deep songs) still have a strong following, they REMEMBER. They are few, maybe a dying race, but they are there even when the mass has gone elsewhere.

Ultima is still called a "classic", but other games are not.

That's what I think.
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July 20th, 2007, 23:27
Right. Instead, you've taken the element of RPGs that you specifically like and declared that that's the core goal of all real RPGs — and thus, by common logic, anything that doesn't have that core goal isn't an RPG.

If you're going to declare that you acknowledge facts and I don't, please get said facts straight.
Are you even reading what I type? What do I like that Iíve said makes a game a rpg or not? Name it. You canít, because I havenít in this thread. Iíd figure reading comprehension would be a vital function of a dialogue writer. Are you saying rpgs were created to provide the same form of entertainment as a book or movie? Maybe thatís Biowareís problem then.

My logic is anything that isnít a rpg isnít a rpg. Thatís pretty good logic. And again, if what I typed and that I assume you read since you responded to it was read, youíd see that a lot of my favorite games, that otherís consider to be rpgs, I donít. Where does that fit in to your assumptions based on things Iíve never said?

I donít want to force a core goal onto rpgs, as its been there from the onset of their creation. I donít need to force anything.

Good to hear you arguing from an informed perspective. Just so we're clear, you're arguing about what someone in a messageboard said about what someone at a gaming convention said about what someone at a gaming studio said? And when I, who have, you know, played the game in question, answer some concerns, you take your thirdhand assumptions and put them against my actual experience?
What is your experience? That the scenes in Mass Effect are not cinematic? Is that what you are saying?

Yeah, I'll be getting back to work.
Fantastic. Maybe that work should include some homework in the genre your company classifies itís games as. What is the first rpg youíve played? The first crpg? How many times have you got into discussions on what a rpg is or what itís goals are? How long have you been in the ďrpgĒ business? Because the breath of your knowledge and ability to comprehend is very impressive.


Good luck with that.
Thanks!
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