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Default What is Fallout 3? @ RPG Codex

July 20th, 2007, 15:29
While I'm sure Vault Dweller's article was amusing, I didn't read it. I've sworn off his stuff until he releases his game. I'm much more interested in VD the game developer, than VD the forum poster. The Codex has been useless since Saint Proverbius quit caring. It used to be a great place to go for indy news, but it's long since failed in that mission. It's just an anti-Bethesda fanchild gathering; not worth visiting.
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July 20th, 2007, 15:44
Originally Posted by crpgnut View Post
While I'm sure Vault Dweller's article was amusing, I didn't read it.
It was neither an article nor was it amusing . The only semi-amusing quote was the one where this one dude said that there's no Bruma in Fallout 3 but even that might have been just a case of a weird sense of humor on part of the author of the article. Hard to tell with quotes that have been ripped out of context and with no links (and -yes- I did actually go to GiN and try to track down the article from their front page but the layout of the site is crap so I couldn't find their E3 coverage).
Otherwise I failed to see anything funny in these quotes. "Fallout 3 is a first person shooter". Ahahahaha. Sooo funny .
I mean what's the big deal here? Every single Fallout fanboi and their dawg said from day one that Fallout 3 would be "Oblivion with guns" and now the prophecy just seems to fulfill itself. The expectations have been met. What exactly is astonishing or funny about that? I don't get it.
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July 20th, 2007, 16:01
Originally Posted by crpgnut View Post
While I'm sure Vault Dweller's article was amusing, I didn't read it. I've sworn off his stuff until he releases his game. I'm much more interested in VD the game developer, than VD the forum poster. The Codex has been useless since Saint Proverbius quit caring. It used to be a great place to go for indy news, but it's long since failed in that mission. It's just an anti-Bethesda fanchild gathering; not worth visiting.
That's odd you pointed it out since I was wondering which forum I should register.

In fact, my first post here tried to shed light on a boundary between subjective preferences and relatively objective analysis on them. To be honest, I am tired of watching never-ending argument over preferences in so-called CRPG sites. A more constructive and/or realistic approach would be to find "RPG-ness" in new works or to stay with indie works. I'd like to find my favorite games quickly since I don't have much time of playing them. This time, I registered here but I wonder how long I will post in future. Like you, I can only say "Good luck on your work, Vault Dweller." Hopefully, this site offers more mature, insightful and journalistic analysis than some other sites of which I won't mention the names here.
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July 20th, 2007, 16:04
Originally Posted by crpgnut View Post
The Codex has been useless since Saint Proverbius quit caring.
Care to explain what Saint Proverbius' presence brought to the table that the current staff can't?

It used to be a great place to go for indy news, but it's long since failed in that mission.
When did we stop covering indie games? There's even been talk of the Codex focusing solely on them, but we haven't reached a consensus yet - in the meantime, we cover all cRPGs we can. Attention towards Bethesda at the moment is nothing unreasonable: the shift in news items is expected whenever an anticipated title comes up, whatever the developer behind it. It happened with Knights of the Old Republic and its sequel, it happened with the PC port of Jade Empire, we do a round up of developer quotes for Dragon Age, it happened with Oblivion… And now with the very violent (in a funny way!) Fallout 3.
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July 20th, 2007, 16:04
Originally Posted by Dyne View Post
That piece made me feel sad about Fallout 3, and about games journalism in general.
You've hit exactly the point I feel for several years now about German gaming journalism.


Let's make a thought-experiment.

Let's imagine the devs tried to make Fallout 3 as an "old school" RPG.
Let's furtheron imagine some of them or their publisher's marketing read these quotes on Fallout 3.
Wouldn't it be possible that someone there begins to think "Wow, this is a great idea ! Let's make an shooter game out of it !" ?

The Influence is strong in this journalism.

And this is basically what seemingly happened with what later became Sacred.


Edit : By the way, didn't the same happen with Shadowrun ?
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July 20th, 2007, 16:08
Originally Posted by Gallifrey View Post
Arguing with Vault Dweller over what sort of game FO3 will be, whether it's what he believes it will be or what someone else with a differing opinion thinks it will be, is like trying to convince a Creationist to accept evolutionary science.
You are mistaken. I'm not a die hard fan, and unlike many, I'll be perfectly ok with a Fallout-inspired game from Bethesda. I'll be very happy if the game turns out to be Morrowind with guns. It's the Oblivion with guns concept that scares the hell out of me.

Originally Posted by crpgnut
While I'm sure Vault Dweller's article was amusing…
I wrote no more than 10 words there. The "article" is a collection of quotes from various game sites.

I'm much more interested in VD the game developer, than VD the forum poster.
Speaking of that, RPG Vault is about to show our first combat video, so you may want to take a look at that next week. I showed the video to Jora (I think he posts here as well; here is what he posted on our forums):

"Okay, so I was given a chance to see the video beforehand. I must say it looks great. Not "great for an indie" but great compared to games like Dungeon Siege and Neverwinter Nights. The models are detailed, the animations fluid and varied.

Implementing the menu for choosing different attacks was worth it. It seems very quick and easy to use.

The inventory seemed to be better than Fallout's. Flashback scrolled it quite effortlessly.

The best parts were the death animations and the special attacks. The only gripe I have is that some of the weapon swinging animations seemed too slow, too powerless. (though VD said they are aware of the problem.)

All in all, the combat really seemed to work. Everything was smooth and clear and there were numerous options. After seeing the video, fighting and visuals are the very least of my worries. It also gives me hope that the other areas of the game will be as good."

The Codex has been useless since Saint Proverbius quit caring. It used to be a great place to go for indy news, but it's long since failed in that mission. It's just an anti-Bethesda fanchild gathering; not worth visiting.
I humbly disagree. First, I interviewed quite a few developers over the last two years, giving you answers to questions most site rarely ask. I interviewed Bioware, Obsidian, the Witcher, Gothic 3, Drakensang, NWN2 teams. I did a great "dialogue" interview with Gaider, Sawyer, Mitsoda, and Bennie.

As for the indies, I interviewed Eschalon: Book 1 and The Broken Hourglass guys, previewed Depth of Peril, did that indie round-table interview, Zero-Sum (Prelude to Darkness) interview, telling their story. I introduced a new indie game yesterday - Scars of War. And so on.

You may dislike the Codex and my charming personality in particular, but don't claim that the Codex does nothing, but bitch about Bethesda.

Originally Posted by Moriendor
Hard to tell with quotes that have been ripped out of context and with no links (and -yes- I did actually go to GiN and try to track down the article from their front page but the layout of the site is crap so I couldn't find their E3 coverage).
Ask and you shall receive.
http://www.gameindustry.com/review/item.asp?id=856
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July 20th, 2007, 16:13
Originally Posted by VDweller View Post
All in all, the combat really seemed to work. Everything was smooth and clear and there were numerous options. After seeing the video, fighting and visuals are the very least of my worries. It also gives me hope that the other areas of the game will be as good."
Why did they show the combat FIRST ?

Are they holding the opinion that this is the BEST part of the game ?

The most reader's influencing part ? The most editor's influencing part ? The part which might get the greatest reviews/looks/talk/whatever ?

The way they are chosing parts of the game for display is telling quite a lot about the developing company and its beliefs, I believe.
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July 20th, 2007, 16:24
Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer View Post
Why did they show the combat FIRST ?
Actually, we didn't. We showed everything but combat during the last two years.
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July 20th, 2007, 16:35
Originally Posted by VDweller View Post
Ask and you shall receive.
http://www.gameindustry.com/review/item.asp?id=856
Thanks for the link. That one has been confirmed as "amusing" then because that guy clearly didn't get that "Oblivion with guns" is not about the game's looks.
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July 20th, 2007, 16:37
Originally Posted by Role-Player View Post
Care to explain what Saint Proverbius' presence brought to the table that the current staff can't?
The Codex *staff* are just fine, they represent what the RPGCodex ostensibly is and do a good job of it. Lots of news and interviews, so it's still a good resource. I'd love to see them go indie-only in their coverage, actually, I think that would be a very good thing.
The problem with the Codex is not the staff, it's the posters. I've read the Codex for news for a long time, and for a good while the forums were, while cantankerous, snarky and jaded, at least intelligent and quite perceptive. But since Oblivion was released, and the Codex somehow attracted a horde of foul-mouthed immature brats who just seem to revel in the opportunity to be obnoxious, loud, stupid and contrary just because they can. And the bizarre racism is really revolting. This diminishes the credibility of the whole site in my opinion.

You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views, which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.
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July 20th, 2007, 16:44
Originally Posted by Gallifrey View Post
I'd love to see them go indie-only in their coverage, actually, I think that would be a very good thing.
There won't be much to cover then, unfortunately.

The problem with the Codex is not the staff, it's the posters.
Like any other site, we have all kinds.
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July 20th, 2007, 17:34
Originally Posted by VDweller View Post
Well, if it's that easy, I insist! Mind you, I'm not saying you can't, I'm simply curious to see what you can come up with. Also, same question to you, Ghan. What kind of game do you think it will be?
Only because I am on holiday.
Mind you, I'll play the Bethesda fanboy that I am no longer one more time, just becasue you love it so! Its better than the thing with the elf ears anyway.

Originally Posted by Joystic
As a fan of the original franchise, we're impressed by Bethesda's ability to retain the core elements of the franchise and improve upon mechanics.
Originally Posted by RPGFan
Fallout 3 seems to have nailed a new style of gameplay that varies greatly from the original titles, yet remains faithful at the same time.
Originally Posted by RPGamer
In the second mode, Todd brought up a targeting HUD that displayed different sections of the enemy's body (like arms, legs, torso, head). Each section had a health gauge and an attack success percentage. Attacking through this method seemed much more like a typical RPG setup and should be more comfortable with those leery of FPS games.
Originally Posted by Eurogamer
One of our biggest worries was the dialogue. Oblivion, as much as we love it, isn't exactly the greatest example of NPC banter. Bonkers looping conversations with women talking in men's voices about a Grey Fox are just about dismissible in the Elder Scrolls world. In Fallout, the character interaction is too precious. And as such, the entire Oblivion character system was stripped out and redone. There were an incredible 1500 NPCs in Oblivion, but Fallout 3 has only a few hundred, each unique with a defined personality.
[QUOTE" Voodoo Estreme"]I'm not 100% sure if you can run around and play in all real-time, but they didn't seem very keen on the idea of making Fallout 3 a run-and-gun, twitchy first-person-shooter.

Relax, mutants. Fallout 3 is in good hands. Bethesda isn't going to cheese up the comedy to the point it's going to make you wince, nor is it going to ignore the elements that made the series great to begin with.[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by The Escapist
For starters, fans of the original games need to know this: much of what you loved about Fallout is in there.

Although the new game is in 3D, and features a first-person perspective, it's still Fallout. It's the same world. It is new, but the same.
Originally Posted by Gamersinfo
Why use VATS if you’re good at shooting?

Well, for one, Bethesda doesn’t want this to be a shooter - they want it to be a role-playing game.
Originally Posted by GameZone
But the game is skill based. Weapons that can be equipped and used are governed by the abilities and skills a player has.
Originally Posted by Kotaku
But it's not just Oblivion apocalypse either, there seemed to be enough different about the game, least of which is the pacing, to separate it from its predecessor.
Originally Posted by Twitch Guru
There was a quite a big of action in the demo, but it's not as if Bethesda has dumbed down Fallout for FPS fans. In fact, much of the gameplay involves player choices.
Blablabla. Proves nothing, does it?
What do I think? I am wary of predictions. But since you ask. Right now it looks like an action RPG, with hopefully some of the style, and some of the quest and dialogue gameplay that set Fallout apart. No proof for that, but thats the promise, right now.
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July 20th, 2007, 17:45
Analysing previews and looking for details can prove anything you want about what FO3 is going to be. I think the only way it'll be decided whether it's Fallout or just Fallout-like will be to experience the game itself, to sit down and play it and explore the world. Then you'll know if it's Fallout or not. Unfortunately that means buying the game since Bethesda do not release demos.

You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views, which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.
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July 20th, 2007, 17:57
Originally Posted by Gallifrey View Post
Analysing previews and looking for details can prove anything you want about what FO3 is going to be.
Actually it can't. It shows you exactly what kinda game it's going to be. After all, our Oblivion predictions were pretty accurate, weren't they?

I think the only way it'll be decided whether it's Fallout or just Fallout-like will be to experience the game itself, to sit down and play it and explore the world. Then you'll know if it's Fallout or not. Unfortunately that means buying the game since Bethesda do not release demos.
See above.

@ Ghan:

Most of these quotes don't go against what I posted. Only very few quotes state that it's not an Oblivion with guns shooter, but without explaining much, i.e.

It's not a shooter because the game has skills.
Even though it looks like a shooter, it's not because Bethesda says it's not.
It's not a shooter because you can target body parts (like that makes sense),

As for the "faithful" comments, the game can be first-person and actiony and still have enough Fallout "spirit" to be considered faithful to the series. In my humble opinion, of course.
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July 20th, 2007, 18:04
The sad thing is I used to go to rpgcodex all the time before any other site…but after awhile you get to the point you just can't read all the crap. Vault dweller you would be better off actually making objective news posts instead of your snide ones.

You do know with all these lofty expectations for all other rpg's that yours will be held up to b e accountable?
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July 20th, 2007, 18:17
Originally Posted by rune_74 View Post
You do know with all these lofty expectations for all other rpg's that yours will be held up to b e accountable?
Of course. I wouldn't expect otherwise.

For the record though, I don't have any lofty expectations. I simply criticize poorly implemented features. For example, I don't expect Bethesda to make a Fallout game similar to the first two in ANY way. I'm ok with a new take and different ideas. I'd rather see the series evolve and live than die. However, I do have a problem with poorly implemented ideas, lack of creativity, and plain stupidity that's already been manifested more strongly than was reasonable to expect.

Does my game have stupid ideas? Absolutely. I'm very open to criticism and never take it personally, so feel free to criticize and hold my game up to whatever standards you like.
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July 20th, 2007, 18:17
Originally Posted by VDweller View Post
Actually it can't. It shows you exactly what kinda game it's going to be. After all, our Oblivion predictions were pretty accurate, weren't they?
Well, the thing with FO3 is that there are more expectations flying around than there were with Oblivion. Fallout 3 has the die-hard Fallout fans watching the previews and the die-hard Elder Scrolls fans also watching. Oblivion had the only the latter.
Because the two games are incredibly different, but presumably merging in some fashion, there's so much information and expectation to weed through and navigate. Many of the press previews seem to be doing more a promotional job than an objective editorial job, thereby creating a lot of lines to be read between in order to try and formulate a clear picture (which is what your article seemed an attempt at doing).
Basically, because the press coverage isn't objective, combined with many different expectations from the readers, you can, I feel, conjure up nearly any ideal scenario of what FO3 will be.

What I personally think Fallout 3 will be is an action RPG with lots of both elements involved. Gameplay wise I have no real delusions about what to expect, but I'm more interested in what the atmosphere and feeling will be like, moreso than what combat and dialogue will be like (though dialogue style is extremely important, going the Morrowind/Oblivion route will be a Bad Move). That's where it will either feel like Fallout or will not, at least to me.

As for the "faithful" comments, the game can be first-person and actiony and still have enough Fallout "spirit" to be considered faithful to the series. In my humble opinion, of course.
Yep, and that's what I think we'll get.

Originally Posted by VDweller View Post
Does my game have stupid ideas? Absolutely. I'm very open to criticism and never take it personally, so feel free to criticize and hold my game up to whatever standards you like.
Well release Age Of Decadence so we can criticize it!
Very much looking forward to it, actually. What I've read and seen is extremely promising.

You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views, which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.
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July 20th, 2007, 18:20
Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer View Post
Why did they show the combat FIRST ?

Are they holding the opinion that this is the BEST part of the game ?

The most reader's influencing part ? The most editor's influencing part ? The part which might get the greatest reviews/looks/talk/whatever ?

The way they are chosing parts of the game for display is telling quite a lot about the developing company and its beliefs, I believe.
If you look at the press section of their site, you'll see that they have covered the non-combat options and other role-playing stuff extensively in past interviews. The NMA interview shows the beginning of the main quest from different viewpoints. The RPG Vault peek #1 focuses on side quest design. Etc.

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July 20th, 2007, 18:24
What is Fallout 3? A floor wax or a dessert topping? Now it's BOTH!

— Mike
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July 20th, 2007, 18:27
Originally Posted by Gallifrey View Post
Well, the thing with FO3 is that there are more expectations flying around than there were with Oblivion.
You can't compare the size of Morrowind fanbase to the size of Fallout fanbase. And yet Bethesda didn't hesitate changing the gameplay to appeal to the hordes of casual players instead, alienating a lot of people in the process.

Yep, and that's what I think we'll get.
What's "a faithful Fallout game" then?

Well release Age Of Decadence so we can criticize it!
Very much looking forward to it, actually. What I've read and seen is extremely promising.
Thanks.
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